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Another abandoned journey.

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Starmill

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So... Is this conflict with staff becoming a recurring theme with me? I think so. :'(

Anyway my journey this morning was from Mauldeth Road to Sheffield, continuing this evening from there to Leeds. I have an AP on the 0858 TPE from Manchester to Sheffield. I went to catch the train at 0837, but it was, unfortunately, bustituted at 0841, due to arrive at 0852. Oh dear I thought - as the journey typically takes longer than 12 minutes, even if the absence of any real traffic as there is at that time on a Sunday morning. The bus arrived at 0856 and I got off as quickly as possible but ran through the doors of platform 3 and saw the dispatcher blowing his whistle. The guard promptly closed the only set of passenger doors still open, and I missed the train because there were 2x170 stabled in the platform, so it was a long walk down to the single 170 going to Sheffield. I continued running anyway and waved at my friends who were standing in the doorway :D

I spoke to the man who'd dispatched the train he was very nice I thought, I said I'd been on a late bus, he sent me up to a little TPE stand to get my tickets stamped, they were duly stamped and marked please allow travel. The member of TPE staff said "There aren't many trains to Sheffield today, your next is the Northern stopper at 0922, you're best off asking the guard on that before you get on but I think they will be fine with it."

So I went to the Merseytravel pacer to find the guard - she came in from having a cigarette I think about 5 minutes before departure, she started checking tickets on the train before departure: "Excuse me, would this TransPennine ticket to Sheffield be OK, I've"-
"No."
"But I've got it stamped!"
she ignored me and walked off to ask the next person for their ticket.

So the next train to Sheffield was at 1118, 2 hours I wasn't best pleased with waiting that long. I tried asking some more of the platform staff (from both companies) if they could ask her to let me on but when I said I had asked the guard and she'd said no they just said I'd need to wait until 1118. Fair enough if the guard wants to be like that what can they do. I was pretty upset at this point so I went to the ticket office as my last resort (I've had a lot of dealings with them before and most of the people who work there are pretty unfriendly towards me, I do wonder if they recognise me!). Nothing new there the clerk just kept interrupting me and said I'd need a new ticket and should not have tried to get on the Northern service. Anyway I had a panic attack resulting in chest pains (harmless when they're caused by stress but still) in the ticket office after asking for a refund - I can't remember all of the conversation but this was of course was a non-starter I was given the usual crap about no refunds can be issued at a station you have to write to them and told that "We are Virgin Trains, not TransPennine Express". Same old same old. I said then I just want to go home (I was having some trouble speaking!) so she sold me a Manchester STNS - Mauldeth Road return because there was a train in 5 minutes. Fair enough I thought that's quicker than a taxi anyway.

Anyway my life story is now over, think it's technically all my fault because I didn't account for the bus which put me beyond the 10 minute minimum connection time. I'm not saying I was entitled to a refund either or even to onward travel anywhere but I did my best and look what I got from the staff in return. I've got an AP on tonight's 2139 XC Sheffield - Leeds, plus the 2 tickets already mentioned (all YP railcard) and I'm at home where I travel from Mauldeth Road. I've somehow got to get to Leeds for tonight, I have cancelled my plans in Sheffield. Does anyone have any advice on what to do next or a neutral interpretation of what happened? I can't make head nor tale of it at present.
 
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najaB

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On the National Rail website, under 'Conditions of use' for Advance tickets it states -
  • You must be at the departure station shown on your ticket in good time to catch the train. If you miss the first train on which you are booked for any reason, a new ticket must be purchased.
  • If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey.
You were at you were at the station in good time for the train you were sold a Advance ticket and reservation for. You didn't miss the rail-replacement bus for the first booked train of your journey, so you should have been able to travel on the next available train.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Not an criticism of you in any way but, just thinking out loud, I wonder what would've happened if you hadn't volunteered any information to the Northern guard? Would she have looked at the ticket and seen that it had been stamped to allow you to travel. Perhaps it's better in this kind of situation to keep quiet and make the guard think up a reason to kick you off, rather than giving them one!
 

34D

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Was the bustitution planned or emergency?

This will dictate my (personal) take on this matter
 

Crossover

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Was the bustitution planned or emergency?

This will dictate my (personal) take on this matter

Looking at RTT, planned - it is in the timetable as happening for 6 Sundays, ending next week

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/bus/Y38757/2014/03/16/advanced
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
My feeling is that you were fortunate to get the ticket endorsed given your bus ended up under the minimum connection time for Piccadilly.

I'm not sure why the guard on the Northern took such exception to you travelling on their service, given that the ticket had been authorised - though it could be they didn't fully interpret what you said, and just saw it was an AP for a service that wasn't theirs. I would say asking in such circumstances is not a bad thing in terms of general politeness, but you possibly met someone who didn't particularly want to be at work on a Sunday AM :P
 

maniacmartin

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I'm a bit confused. Was the AP for the both legs of the journey or just the TPE leg from Manchester?
 

Crossover

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OK, so I know starmill may not like me pointing this out, but if we're keeping things balanced
I'm not saying I was entitled to a refund either or even to onward travel anywhere but I did my best and look what I got from the staff in return

I can't help but think that if you're not sure what you're entitled to, it may be ill-advised to try and argue the toss over such things - you'll just hit a brick wall with staff who will probably take less notice and the situation becomes more stressful
 

Starmill

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Firstly to clarify, yes this was two APs a TPE one and an XC one, that should have been clearer in the OP. Also, the works were planned, for the construction of the new platform at Manchester Airport - and RTT is not an official source of information for that anyway. I did not consult the revised timetable when I bought the TPE ticket. I wouldn't have had much choice though if I had, because I knew the train connected and any bus replacement would be obviously unlikely to (though had the bus been On Time, I would still have made it).

The answer may well be that I should have begun my journey an hour earlier and waited an extra hour at Piccadilly, rough deal if so but fair play if that's what's required. I wouldn't have been able to do that so I had no choice but to risk it and hope discretion would be shown in the event of a delay.

In the event, there was a delay and discretion was shown. It is normally remarkably difficult to get anyone on the railway to endorse a ticket, I'd guess because they don't want to defend their decision if their name is part of the paper trail. But in this case it was shown and I don't think anyone on here can try to detract from that. There's a date stamp with the TPE logo and the endorsement reads "Please allow on next train [Signature] Man Picc".

So, I was given verbal instructions to go for the 0922 but was told it would be best to check with the guard. Surely instructions from an Authorised Person - and physical evidence of those instructions (note the phrasing: "next train") - override the TOC-specific nature of an Advance Ticket. I'd go so far as to say that had I not attempted to board the 0922, or not confirmed with the guard, I would have been disobeying said instructions, and as such may have lost my right to travel on a subsequent service. Sadly somebody did not agree - and I don't buy any of this nonsense about her 'having a bad day' or 'not wanting to be at work at that time of day' - if one is paid to do a job, one does it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If it's any constellation had you been on my train I would have waved you on..

It is, thanks :D And I think this is important because a lot of people - a LOT of people have now said to me that I shouldn't have asked her. Ranging from "it's unfortunate but unavoidable that you asked and were denied permission" to "You bloody daft sod next time get on the train and don't bother" I feel like I can't win. This advice is bandied around on here all the time. Is it reliable? It's what I was told to do by the member of staff who endorsed my tickets, it's what I usually do, it seems to demonstrate that you are genuine and above all it's polite! Next time I'm in a situation like this (which is relatively often, actually) I'll think twice before the easier said than done "ask the guard".

I'm sure those of you who do not have much sympathy for me will be very satisfied: I had to buy a new (ridiculously overpriced) Any Permitted single from Manchester to Leeds
 
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MyFriendMary

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I guess that TPE can only give authority for their services,? However it is quite harsh by the Northern guard to have denied travel to you - it wasn't like it would have hurt!
 

Crossover

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In the event, there was a delay and discretion was shown. It is normally remarkably difficult to get anyone on the railway to endorse a ticket, I'd guess because they don't want to defend their decision if their name is part of the paper trail. But in this case it was shown and I don't think anyone on here can try to detract from that. There's a date stamp with the TPE logo and the endorsement reads "Please allow on next train [Signature] Man Picc".

Agreed that you did well to get that as quick as you did - as you say, you usually have to jumps through hoops backwards...twice...to get endorsements, so well done to TPE on that.

.....and I don't buy any of this nonsense about her 'having a bad day' or 'not wanting to be at work at that time of day' - if one is paid to do a job, one does it.

Lets be fair, it happens. Should it happen, no, but it does - I'm sure we all have days that we'd rather have done with.

I'm sure those of you who do not have much sympathy for me will be very satisfied: I had to buy a new (ridiculously overpriced) Any Permitted single from Manchester to Leeds

I think you get the wrong end of the stick on that :D
 

najaB

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And I think this is important because a lot of people - a LOT of people have now said to me that I shouldn't have asked her...
I'm in no way saying that you were wrong to ask - you had an honest question and were entitled to the correct answer. What I've learned from your example is that if I'm ever in a similar situation is to ask the question after handing the ticket to the guard. Something like "Could you take a look at this for me...<pause>...am I okay to travel on this train?"

I believe that if the guard had actually looked at the ticket you would have been allowed to travel.
 

yorkie

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There's insufficient information to say.

When/where was the first ticket in the combination purchased? At what stage did the train into Manchester get "bustituted"?

Was an itinerary held, booked, or viewed, showing the journey was possible at the time you arrived at your origin station?

Asking staff is usually the best way, but you have to consider "what if they say no?" e.g. a train every 10 mins and you ask. An infrequent service, when you have an authority to travel, then you're best not asking. It really depends and there can be no simple 'this course of action is always best' policy.

My head hurts when trying to make sense of it, so it's best discussed in person some time (I'm sure I'll see you at some of the upcoming forum events). Whatever my thoughts on the rights & wrongs, and whether or not I think you're entitled to anything, I'll guarantee you'll have my sympathy!
 

Starmill

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If I hadn't asked before departure I really get the feeling that this thread would be here and would say:

"I was thrown off/taken to hospital from/met by BTP and removed from a train at Marple because the guard didn't agree my ticket was valid."

or at best

"I have been issued with an £18.30 UFN that I believe was issued incorrectly and can't pay."

If so I'll just count myself lucky and write the day off. No doubt I shall see you sooner or later yorkie, yes - and thank you.
 
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34D

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I would say ask the guard if your ticket suggests it is invalid, but as it's been stamped I would have just taken a seat.

Just to confirm, your tickets yesterday were:

Mauldeth Road to Piccadilly
0858 TPE from Manchester to Sheffield advance
Evening Sheffield to Leeds advance?

If I follow further, you went for a rail rep bus at the approx time of the usual train from Mauldeth Road, but this didn't connect? You were (amazingly and luckily) allowed on the next train, but the NT guard didn't let you, what happened re the 11:18 TPE?
 

maniacmartin

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Was the Mauldeth Road to Piccadilly ticket bought before or after the bustitution was announced?
 

34D

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Was the Mauldeth Road to Piccadilly ticket bought before or after the bustitution was announced?

To try and be as pro-passenger as I can.... to what extent can a passenger 'trust' a printed timetable that says that on Saturdays from xx January to xx May there is a train at 08:37 which arrives at Pic at 08:48 thereby leaving the 10 mins minimum connection time to the express?
 

455driver

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Can a TPE person authorise a TPE only ticket for use on Northern trains?

Surely the validation on the ticket allows travel on the next TPE train?

Yes we have done this one 20 times in the past and I for one have no interest in another 100 posts being made before we all aggree to disaggree on the matter again! ;)
 

maniacmartin

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Can a TPE person authorise a TPE only ticket for use on Northern trains?

It's not clear to me whether their endorsement meant "next train by any TOC" or "next TPE train".

From a passenger point of view, the NRCoC and Regulation of Railways Act cover who can endorse travel without a valid ticket - any member of railway staff or railway police acting within the course of their duties. Of course TOCs may have their own internal policies on this
 

Flamingo

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If the member of TPE staff thought that their endorsement of a TPE ticket was valid for a Northern train, they would not have advised the OP to go ask the Guard before boarding.

It's one of the unintended consequences of privatisation.
 

LowLevel

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I would agree - when I worked on a station that had Cross Country services in addition to our own, nobody on the station had the authority to pass someone to travel on an XC service - it was always totally down to the guard.

Sadly I don't think you have a leg to stand on - and for what it's worth, if it was me I'd have happily let you travel if you'd approached and explained what had occurred.

The instruction was to ask the guard for confirmation - this implies that the guard certainly has the right to reply in the negative.

That said, you could always take the less friendly approach if desired, as it seems this particular employee did - you choose an operator specific ticket, you take your chances. Personally I disagree with the whole confusing debacle with different companies so I avoid promoting it.
 
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talltim

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It sounds like the bustitution was scheduled, rather than ad hoc? Was the bus late compared to its timetable?. If it was late I don;t see that it is any different from a train being late, so the terms of you AP should allow you to travel on the next train? APs aren't TOC specific because the connecting trains may be run by another TOC
 
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maniacmartin

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APs aren't TOC specific because the connecting trains may be run by another TOC

APs' Route fields are usually of form 'TOC X ONLY' or 'TOC Y &CONNECTNS'
The first is TOC-specific, and the second is only interavailable on the connections (non-reservable) part.
 

Anvil1984

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The engineering work was planned well in Advance due to the Manchester Airport engineering works and would've been on online journey planners

http://www.northernrail.org/pdfs/trackworks/Man_-_Man_Airport_T-T_booklet_for_website.pdf

The bus was due in at 0852 and TPE due out at 0858 so as stated nowhere near the minimum connection time and frankly the ticket shouldn't have been endorsed as it was due to the passenger not planning ahead not a TOC issue. No issues with saying ask the guard though but rejection is a possibility. Sorry for not bing pro passenger here but in terms of the black and white
 

Starmill

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Not sure what else to say really. Was clear the 0922 was his intention, the next one was only mentioned because I asked, thinking to myself "My God that'll be a Pacer!". Can't help but think all of this about who can or cannot authorise travel shouldn't be the passenger's problem...

Lastly; it wasn't clear that there was a reason why I was not being allowed on either. The worrying thing is I've seen her many times before, bought tickets etc. Hope I don't see her again anytime soon.
 

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Anvil1984

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To try and be as pro-passenger as I can.... to what extent can a passenger 'trust' a printed timetable that says that on Saturdays from xx January to xx May there is a train at 08:37 which arrives at Pic at 08:48 thereby leaving the 10 mins minimum connection time to the express?

Just to counter (just playing devils advocate) but even the printed timetable showed the service for that particular day as a bus

http://www.northernrail.org/pdfs/timetables/20131208/21.pdf

Not passenger friendly but unfortunately all I can say it he question shouldn't be who can endorse the ticket but why was it endorsed?
 

bb21

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How did you show the guard the ticket initially? Did you show her the front, or the back?
 

34D

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Just to counter (just playing devils advocate) but even the printed timetable showed the service for that particular day as a bus

http://www.northernrail.org/pdfs/timetables/20131208/21.pdf

Not passenger friendly but unfortunately all I can say it he question shouldn't be who can endorse the ticket but why was it endorsed?

Wow - I didn't realise it was planned to that extent. In that case, why on earth didn't a regular member of this forum get an earlier service (whether a rail rep bus, a public bus or a lift/taxi.

The side issue of whether a member of FTPE staff authorise a passenger to use a Northern service is an interesting point I would suggest.
 
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