Annoying unnecessary on-train announcements - a rant!

[Max]

Do you need to SHOUT in all your responses? Please refrain, thanks.

 

[Boppawombat]

Merseyrail have far, far too many announcements about health and safety now. The scrolling and voiced messages for the underground stations telling passengers how to stand on an escalator and to ask if they need assistance is cringeworthy. Indeed, to include these announcements, previous (useful) voiced advice about "change here for Northern/Wirral Line services" has been sacrificed.

However, I completely disagree that "we apologise for the inconvenience" should have been removed. You say Merseyrail are supposed to offer "we are sorry" as an alternative, but they do not. Instead, announcements concerning cancellations and engineering works are not followed by any apology whatsoever. This strikes me as arrogant and I for one would welcome the "we apologise" line coming back, whatever your market research might say.

As others have said, there are much bigger issues. The announcements are little more than a minor irriation to me. What really annoys me about Merseyrail is their woefully inadequate number of 6-car workings on the Southport line. But that's another rant...

Agree about the ridiculous [new] safety on the lift and escalator ones ["if you use the escalator, please take care, hold the handrail and stand to the right...." - for goodness sakes!!! At this rate they WILL be telling us how to walk sensibly on the platform next!].

These additional nannying messages were the sole idea of the recent new marketing manager Karl Clawley (who has since left funnily enough), and are truly laughable. However, I am currently in talks with the management to change or do away with these because they are considered extremely patronising, not to mention unnecessary. This is agreed by almost every passenger I have spoken to about it in a recent new survey I have carried out.

As for the "apologise...." one, I am aware now that they have stopped saying this (to my relief at least!), but at the same time I have suggested the management atone for this one too by at least saying "Merseyrail are sorry for any delay or disruption caused to your journey" which is far far preferable to the overused and extremely trite "Merseyrail would like to apologise for any inconvenience this may cause....". Just to appease those who DO still expect a grovelling apology over the PA whenever things go wrong.

I have suggested that they show some initiative in implementing wording that isn't overfamiliar or trite but still gets the message across in a personable and human way at the very least. "Apologise for any inconvenience" is now so overused everywhere it has been rendered almost meaningless. They have since come back to inform me that they are starting to get their control staff to use the word "sorry" more often. And yes, I can honestly say that on two or three occasions over the last few weeks, I actually DID hear the words "Merseyrail are sorry for any delay to your journey..." being said over the tannoy at, variously Hamilton Square, James Street and Birkenhead Central....... At least that's progress!


A quick digression on a similar issue:

On a recent trip to London - at London Bridge Station, whilst waiting for a train to Blackheath, I did not hear ANY instances of the words "apologise for any inconvenience" used when late trains were announced by the tannoy. It's almost as if they too have done away with them knowing full well that passengers must be sick to death of hearing those words which do nothing anyway to make amends, "....because the train is late, so it's late - and no amount of grovelling apologies is going to atone for it!!".


You see, unlike some people who simply tune out the repeated exposure to the same things said over and over again, and pay it no mind, I actually get more aggravated by it because it's like.........an unrelenting form of water torture!!!!



--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Do you need to SHOUT in all your responses? Please refrain, thanks.

Oh come, I'm not shouting....I am only reinforcing my point, using the caps or italics just to emphasise those words.... I've already explained it to two other posters....

Like I said....

 

[O L Leigh]

I have to say that I wonder what all the fuss is about. Of all the things that could make a person's blood boil, is this really the most noble...? With all the things that happen daily at all levels of life that directly affect all of us, are automated announcements really the worst? It might be a pet peeve of yours, but does it really merit a crusade?

As a member of staff I have to say that I broadly agree that the level and banality of annoucement is getting a bit too high. However, while they might be annoying to you they still clearly do not convey enough information for a significant proportion of the travelling public. For whatever reason, some of these people probably shouldn't be allowed onto the railway without a carer, but we have to cater for them too. Some of them really do need to be taken by the hand and escorted to the correct platform to board the their train and then need a little nudge to get them off again at their station. They need reminding that smoking is not permitted and to stand behind the yellow line because they can't be relied upon to act responsibly themselves.

But if it annoys you so much I can recommend some excellent sound-isolationing earphones from Sennheiser that block out all automated announcements as well as the innane braying of your fellow passengers. What you choose to listen to while wearing them is up to you. But just be aware that you might miss an important announcement by doing so, one that explains the cause and likely duration of a delay to your train or tells you that the train is going to be diverted or terminated shorted of it's destination or gives instructions for your safety because of an emergency situation.

O L Leigh

 

[Flamingo]

The PA is a very useful tool for providing information and advice. Just because for 90 out of the 100 people on the train it is their daily commute and they know exactly where they are going and what they are doing, there will always be another few who do require help and advice. I believe that offering them a service is required as well.

And just to re-enforce O L Leigh's point, there are bigger things going on to worry about.

 

[SS4]

We need all the H&S advice because we've followed the American example of sue anyone for anything. AFAIK on the continent they just throw the case out laughing as they go. What's that Sir? You didn't realised the platform would be wet during rain?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I think a lot of us can agree that swathes of the "Great" British public are in fact complete idiots

 

[90019]

Oh come, I'm not shouting....I am only reinforcing my point, using the caps or italics just to emphasise those words.... I've already explained it to two other posters....

Like I said....

If you type things in capitals, it gives the impression THAT YOU'RE SHOUTING AT PEOPLE.
Italics used with care will put emphasis on words, but can also come across as sarcasm. If you want to emphasise a sentece or part of one, put it in bold, but don't overuse them.

So far in this thread, you've come across as an angry shouty person who won't accept anyone else's point of view. Perhaps not the case, but unfortunately that's how you're coming across.

I think a lot of us can agree that swathes of the "Great" British public are in fact complete idiots

Nothing new there.

 

[thefab444]

I think a lot of us can agree that swathes of the "Great" British public are in fact complete idiots

True, although even intelligent people seem to leave their common sense at home when travelling on the train!

 

[PR1Berske]

Before I start, let me just say sorry for not noticing this extremely insightful forum earlier. For some strange reason only known to myself, I've only just discovered the existence of this messageboard today. Heaven only knows why/how I didn't come across it earlier as I like to believe that I am one of the most fiercely outspoken critics of our railways.....and I have yet to come across any others who have quite as many grievances as I harbour over the sheer incompetence at every single level of railway management that we have had to deal with ever since the onset of privatisation all of 16 years ago.

Over the years, I have written countless letters to TOCs and Network Rail (and Railtrack before them) - over 200 in fact - lambasting them and offering savage criticism (or, in some rare cases, rare appraisals) for what I consider major failings in their day to day operations etc... and the issue of automated station and on-board-train announcements is without a doubt by far my biggest bugbear and pet hate.

So much so that I have since launched several one-man campaigns railing against the sheer pointlessness of this whole farcical exercise and even written to celebrated railway columnist Christian Wolmar on several occasions (last few times out on his website), providing him with my own printed findings from several passenger surveys I have carried out over the last four years competely of my own initiative to gauge passenger's views and opinions of these various issues...and indeed gaining some very intriguing results which I have put to various operators such as Merseyrail, Northern Rail, Virgin Trains and Trans-Pennine Express - most of which I use very regularly as I work in three different locations and am always darting back and forth via train betw.......



[continues for considerable hours].

Never have I seen such a disproportional response to a minor problem! As others on this forum have said, the effort you have put into this is both ridiculous and, in a way, splendid.

The fact you have arranged face-to-face meetings with station managers over this crazed one-man campaign is bewildering.

 

[trainophile]

It's surprising how many people don't "stand on the right" on the escalator. Particularly annoying at Moorfields when running for a tight connection to Chester. It's tempting to barge through them with elbows flaying, but I generally just wait behind them or politely say "excuse me", while silently fuming inside.

 

[causton]

It's surprising how many people don't "stand on the right" on the escalator. Particularly annoying at Moorfields when running for a tight connection to Chester. It's tempting to barge through them with elbows flaying, but I generally just wait behind them or politely say "excuse me", while silently fuming inside.

On the Tube if you wait behind the offender the people behind you will push you into them! I usually cough loudly, grab the handrail beside them or if it's a bag (I mean luggage, not the other meaning!) remove the obstruction with my foot

 

[First class]

I have to say that boppawombat seems misinformed about Merseyrail, despite these "meetings" with Rudi and Bart.

Karl Clawley had nothing to do with the announcements on trains. That was safety section who are perhaps rightly concerned with the amount of escalator accidents that occur on the Underground stations. Most of those involved in these accidents are not aware that a lift is available. It really irritates me that guards will make a manual announcement which is followed by an identical automated announcement. What's the point other than interfering with peace and quiet.

As I've said in other threads, if you think Merseyrail announcements at stations are good or even at an acceptable standard then you are looking at a different company. The vague, unapologetic approach to announcing issues is poor.

Why would passengers be interested in hearing a £3.50 meal deal is available at selected stations, whilst waiting for their delayed train??

Got a little challenge for someone here,

Kirkby to Liverpool Central is an 18 minute journey with most people going end to end. How many announcements do you think are made?

Highlight between the arrows to find out <<21>>

Those are just the automated announcements. Considering the guards tend to repeat them, you can add more. At least more than 1 a minute!!!

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I feel concerned that if boppawombat shakes his walking stick too hard, his heart will give out. I'm sure nobody wants that to happen.

 

[duffman82]

I have to say that boppawombat seems misinformed about Merseyrail, despite these "meetings" with Rudi and Bart.

Karl Clawley had nothing to do with the announcements on trains. That was safety section who are perhaps rightly concerned with the amount of escalator accidents that occur on the Underground stations. Most of those involved in these accidents are not aware that a lift is available. It really irritates me that guards will make a manual announcement which is followed by an identical automated announcement. What's the point other than interfering with peace and quiet.

As I've said in other threads, if you think Merseyrail announcements at stations are good or even at an acceptable standard then you are looking at a different company. The vague, unapologetic approach to announcing issues is poor.

Why would passengers be interested in hearing a £3.50 meal deal is available at selected stations, whilst waiting for their delayed train??

Got a little challenge for someone here,

Kirkby to Liverpool Central is an 18 minute journey with most people going end to end. How many announcements do you think are made?

Highlight between the arrows to find out <<21>>

Those are just the automated announcements. Considering the guards tend to repeat them, you can add more. At least more than 1 a minute!!!

I'm sick of the announcement stating from a service from central saying at Sandhills 'Change here for Southport services' If you've come from central or moorfields you might of well of stayed there!

 

[prod_pep]

I don't see any significant problem with the quantity of Merseyrail automated announcements. They're not particularly excessive with the notable exception of James Street. Announcing connecting rail and bus services is one thing, but "alight here for Liverpool One, the Beatles Story and the Waterfront"? No, thanks. The major issue is the redundant health and safety messages, which are repeated on the escalators and at help points anyway. They're the problem here.

The Kirkby line gets it about right - announcement at the station, one on the move and a third when approaching the station. I wouldn't mind the addition of "This station is *Rice Lane*" when stopped at individual stations, but it's no big problem.

If the guard wants to add an announcement of their own when approaching intermediate stations like Sandhills, then that's fine. I actually like to hear the voice of a member of staff now and again - it's quite reassuring to know they're doing their job. Sometimes it is repeated information, but I would suggest passengers are more likely to listen to a "real" voice than the automated one.

One other thing - is the fact Merseyrail now calls its passengers "customers" one of your ideas as well, Boppawombat? That's something that does annoy me. I don't use their M-to-Go shops, so I'm not buying products, therefore I am not a "customer". It's a completely pointless change in my opinion. I prefer to be called a passenger - after all, I'm trying to get somewhere, not buy products.

 

[tom1649]

I don't see any significant problem with the quantity of Merseyrail automated announcements. They're not particularly excessive with the notable exception of James Street. Announcing connecting rail and bus services is one thing, but "alight here for Liverpool One, the Beatles Story and the Waterfront"? No, thanks.

The Kirkby line gets it about right - announcement at the station, one on the move and a third when approaching the station. I wouldn't mind the addition of "This station is *Rice Lane*" when stopped at individual stations, but it's no big problem.

If the guard wants to add an announcement of their own when approaching intermediate stations like Sandhills, then that's fine. I actually like to hear the voice of a member of staff now and again - it's quite reassuring to know they're doing their job. Sometimes it is repeated information, but I would suggest passengers are more likely to listen to a "real" voice than the automated one.

One other thing - is the fact Merseyrail now calls its passengers "customers" one of your ideas as well, Boppawombat? That's something that does annoy me. I don't use their M-to-Go shops, so I'm not buying products, therefore I am not a "customer". It's a completely pointless change in my opinion. I prefer to be called a passenger - after all, I'm trying to get somewhere, not buy products.

In these enlightened times is there still the option for the guard to switch the auto announcements off and do them him/herself if they so wish? I suspect it only gets switched off if the system starts talking gibberish.

If privatisation had never happened I'd like to think we'd still be called passengers not customers. Having said that even publicly owned London Underground is falling into the 'customers' way of thinking. It makes you wonder if the railways are gradually becoming run by former retail managers.

 

[trainophile]

On the Liverpool-Chester line some of the stations are less than a minute apart (or so it seems anyway). The announcement barely has time to pause for breath between "This train is for Chester, the next station is Green Lane" and "We are now approaching Green Lane". They must think we have awfully short memories!

Or maybe it's to warn infrequent travellers that they don't actually have five minutes to collect up their luggage, fold their Metro, put their specs away....

 

[PR1Berske]

Where has boppawombat gone? Is he away arranging meetings with station managers about SHOUTING and WORDS?

 

[Via Bank]

In these enlightened times is there still the option for the guard to switch the auto announcements off and do them him/herself if they so wish? I suspect it only gets switched off if the system starts talking gibberish.

If privatisation had never happened I'd like to think we'd still be called passengers not customers. Having said that even publicly owned London Underground is falling into the 'customers' way of thinking. It makes you wonder if the railways are gradually becoming run by former retail managers.

BR started calling their passengers "customers" in the late 80s and early 90s, around the same time the Network SouthEast branding came into use.

They were much maligned for this, given that the tape-based auto-announcers had to be re-recorded manually to say "customers" vice "passengers"--and that was a hefty fee going to the voice artists.

 

[prod_pep]

On Merseyside, we've been fortunate enough to avoid the "customers" branding until the last couple of years. I find it patronising. All part of the ultra-commercial Merseyrail we see today. They are a style-over-substance TOC at the moment.

 

[dzug2]

When did PA on trains actually become widespread? I don't recall being there in steam days or early DMUs, nor even in HSTs when they first came in. But after that I'm a bit hazy

 

[tom1649]

On Merseyside, we've been fortunate enough to avoid the "customers" branding until the last couple of years. I find it patronising. All part of the ultra-commercial Merseyrail we see today. They are a style-over-substance TOC at the moment.

Such a shame, I used to love travelling on the Merseyrail network in the 90s. The only announcements then were manual ones for the interchanges on the underground sections. I was really looking forward to paying another visit after 10 years, but I've been a bit put off now. I might stick with Manchester for my days out.

There's always the FCC Moorgate - Drayton Park service which has a similar feel to the Merseyrail Underground sections. Just need to travel on one of the three unrefurbished 313s for that true 80s/90s 'Merseyrailesque' experience!

 

[prod_pep]

There's always the FCC Moorgate - Drayton Park service which has a similar feel to the Merseyrail Underground sections. Just need to travel on one of the three unrefurbished 313s for that true 80s/90s 'Merseyrailesque' experience!

There are still some unrefurbished 314s up in Glasgow. Inside, apart from the seat covers, these are very reminiscent of the unrefurbished Merseyrail units. I love Glasgow - there's a lot of similarities with Liverpool.

The period 1985 - 1996 was Merseyrail's golden generation. There was very little overcrowding back then, with much better service provision. Southport trains were always 6-cars and they were every 7.5 minutes in rush hours and there were many more pairs on other lines in peak hours. It's just not the same these days, sadly.

 

[island]

I'm reminded of the SWT trains where several seconds after the first passengers have alighted, you get "the door buttons are now active" :roll:

 

[LE Greys]

When did PA on trains actually become widespread? I don't recall being there in steam days or early DMUs, nor even in HSTs when they first came in. But after that I'm a bit hazy

I think it was first introduced on XP-64, then became standard on the MkIIs and was retrofitted to many MkIs and units.

 

[Boppawombat]

Where has boppawombat gone? Is he away arranging meetings with station managers about SHOUTING and WORDS?

Ha ha. I was busy. I had another meeting the other day with Rudi Boersma at Rail House.

Great productive hour spent in his company as well. No shouting. No wild gesticulating. Just constructive debate and examination of the latest customer findings that I presented him back in April.

Things could well start changing at Merseyrail again - watch this space.



You know, people should start giving me a bit more credit other than assuming I like to come on here to rant and rave and shout or whatever. At least I make the effort to get off my backside and regularly contact these people at the top, get to speak to them and get things done.

Other people should try it sometime.




--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Such a shame, I used to love travelling on the Merseyrail network in the 90s. The only announcements then were manual ones for the interchanges on the underground sections. I was really looking forward to paying another visit after 10 years, but I've been a bit put off now. I might stick with Manchester for my days out.

You serious? You should spend an hour just standing in Piccadilly station, the volume and frequency of announcements there will turn you into a gibbering foaming-at-the-mouth wreck.


There is a likelihood that Merseyrail is actually going to be reducing the number of its [unnecessary] station announcements in due course, at the recommendation of recent reports. The only ones remaining will be the usual requisite safety/security ones repeated once every 20 minutes. There are also possible plans to delete the stupid 'patronising' ones heard on board the trains that tell you where to stand inside lifts and on escalators: it has already been pointed out to them that these are, frankly, beyond the pale and were probably the work of the already-departed marketing guy Mr. Clawley's wildly overzealous cause.



--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't see any significant problem with the quantity of Merseyrail automated announcements. They're not particularly excessive with the notable exception of James Street. Announcing connecting rail and bus services is one thing, but "alight here for Liverpool One, the Beatles Story and the Waterfront"? No, thanks. The major issue is the redundant health and safety messages, which are repeated on the escalators and at help points anyway. They're the problem here.

The Kirkby line gets it about right - announcement at the station, one on the move and a third when approaching the station. I wouldn't mind the addition of "This station is *Rice Lane*" when stopped at individual stations, but it's no big problem.

If the guard wants to add an announcement of their own when approaching intermediate stations like Sandhills, then that's fine. I actually like to hear the voice of a member of staff now and again - it's quite reassuring to know they're doing their job. Sometimes it is repeated information, but I would suggest passengers are more likely to listen to a "real" voice than the automated one.

One other thing - is the fact Merseyrail now calls its passengers "customers" one of your ideas as well, Boppawombat? That's something that does annoy me. I don't use their M-to-Go shops, so I'm not buying products, therefore I am not a "customer". It's a completely pointless change in my opinion. I prefer to be called a passenger - after all, I'm trying to get somewhere, not buy products.

I hate the term 'customers' just like you. I always use the term 'passengers'.
We all know what the difference between a customer and a passenger is, so there is no need to go into all that again. The truth is that they are trying now to market the railway network as more than just train services - hence these M to Go facilities which are replacing the usual ticket offices. Lime Street is the latest station which is undergoing the change right now.

I suppose it's all objective because they (Merseyrail) argue that this idea - which of course originated in the Netherlands - is proving more popular with passengers who want to pick up a newspaper or a bag of sweets or whatever at the same time as purchase a rail ticket, but then you get the detractors who just want to get their train tickets and rush off to catch their train without being stuck behind somebody buying the shop (!)....and this then opens up the argument as to why Merseyrail cannot afford to instal more automatic ticket machines at their underground stations.

So far, if I am correct, there is only one at Liverpool Central, and one at Moorfields, whilst James Street and Lime Street don't have any at all. There are many passengers who use these stations who have openly expressed a desire for a ticket machine to be installed at these two, but Merseyrail have stated that they can't justify having more than they already have - which to me is not a good enough reason to be honest.

If the London underground can have them, then Merseyrail should at the very least be better provided with them - at least give passengers a choice of how they can purchase their tickets at the point of travel - not limit them further!

 

[prod_pep]

Glad to know I'm not the only one who hates being called a "customer".

My take on the M-to-Go shops is that it is fine to have them, as long as they're getting other areas of their franchise right. But they aren't - there are nowhere near enough carriages on the Southport line on and off peak and especially on weekends. The trains are also largely filthy and graffiti damaged externally and hardly sparkling inside. They can (and do) point to M-to-Go as one of their most successful franchise implementations along with punctuality, but they have major issues with capacity and cleanliness that frankly I'm sick of them covering up.

As for ticket machines, I can see why they installed them at Liverpool Central and Moorfields first. These are their two busiest stations (with Southport the third) and the main reason for this is the presence of the busier of the two lines, the Northern Line. I do agree there should be more machines at busier stations such as Waterloo, Maghull, Formby, Blundellsands and some of the Birkenhead stations.

 

[Boppawombat]

Glad to know I'm not the only one who hates being called a "customer".

My take on the M-to-Go shops is that it is fine to have them, as long as they're getting other areas of their franchise right. But they aren't - there are nowhere near enough carriages on the Southport line on and off peak and especially on weekends. The trains are also largely filthy and graffiti damaged externally and hardly sparkling inside. They can (and do) point to M-to-Go as one of their most successful franchise implementations along with punctuality, but they have major issues with capacity and cleanliness that frankly I'm sick of them covering up.

As for ticket machines, I can see why they installed them at Liverpool Central and Moorfields first. These are their two busiest stations (with Southport the third) and the main reason for this is the presence of the busier of the two lines, the Northern Line. I do agree there should be more machines at busier stations such as Waterloo, Maghull, Formby, Blundellsands and some of the Birkenhead stations.

To be fair though - please don't take this like I am defending Merseyrail to the hilt, I'm not, they are deserving of equal amounts of criticism and praise - it is not Merseyrail's fault that a fair minority of the passengers that use its services around LIverpool and the Wirral are skanky, obnoxious, foul-mouthed and antisocially-inbred scally types that should all be exterminated at birth.

I too absolutely hate having to put up with the same groups of boneheaded morons playing their music really loud to annoy everyone else, stick their feet on the seats, leave their chewing gum and cans of drink strewn all over the place, etc etc.... but what can you do? Even the so-called "Response Unit" staff sometimes just stand in the guard's compartment and do nothing whilst a few of these miscreants see fit to do as they please, completely contemptuous of everyone else.

The unavoidable fact about travelling on ANY of the seven main Merseyrail branches in any direction out of Liverpool (be it Northern or Wirral lines) is that you have to pass through inner city-territory first before you get to the respectable neighbourhoods: Dingle/Brunswick, Bootle, Seaforth, Kirkdale, Birkenhead, North End, Rock Ferry, Bidston, Leasowe, etc.... whilst one of the lines - to Kirkby - falls entirely within this territory - with clientele to match of course.....

 

[trainophile]

To be fair though - please don't take this like I am defending Merseyrail to the hilt, I'm not, they are deserving of equal amounts of criticism and praise - it is not Merseyrail's fault that a fair minority of the passengers that use its services around LIverpool and the Wirral are skanky, obnoxious, foul-mouthed and antisocially-inbred scally types that should all be exterminated at birth.

I too absolutely hate having to put up with the same groups of boneheaded morons playing their music really loud to annoy everyone else, stick their feet on the seats, leave their chewing gum and cans of drink strewn all over the place, etc etc.... but what can you do? Even the so-called "Response Unit" staff sometimes just stand in the guard's compartment and do nothing whilst a few of these miscreants see fit to do as they please, completely contemptuous of everyone else.

The unavoidable fact about travelling on ANY of the seven main Merseyrail branches in any direction out of Liverpool (be it Northern or Wirral lines) is that you have to pass through inner city-territory first before you get to the respectable neighbourhoods: Dingle/Brunswick, Bootle, Seaforth, Kirkdale, Birkenhead, North End, Rock Ferry, Bidston, Leasowe, etc.... whilst one of the lines - to Kirkby - falls entirely within this territory - with clientele to match of course.....

And 90% of the rest are on OAP passes so generating no revenue!

I do wish Southport would drag itself into the 21st century by means of installing a pre-booked tickets collection machine. It's maddening to have to pay full whack just because I can't get hold of a much cheaper ticket before boarding the train.

 

[Trev Collins]

My gripe is the `newspeak`language used these days. We no longer arrive `at` but `into` , for example. I`m sure some of the guards (or train managers!) love the sound of their own voices. On the other hand announcements are essential for the visually impaired. I was travelling from Cambridge to bury St. Edmunds a couple of years ago and there was nothing at all, just the digital display.

 

[prod_pep]

To be fair though - please don't take this like I am defending Merseyrail to the hilt, I'm not, they are deserving of equal amounts of criticism and praise - it is not Merseyrail's fault that a fair minority of the passengers that use its services around LIverpool and the Wirral are skanky, obnoxious, foul-mouthed and antisocially-inbred scally types that should all be exterminated at birth.

I too absolutely hate having to put up with the same groups of boneheaded morons playing their music really loud to annoy everyone else, stick their feet on the seats, leave their chewing gum and cans of drink strewn all over the place, etc etc.... but what can you do? Even the so-called "Response Unit" staff sometimes just stand in the guard's compartment and do nothing whilst a few of these miscreants see fit to do as they please, completely contemptuous of everyone else.

The unavoidable fact about travelling on ANY of the seven main Merseyrail branches in any direction out of Liverpool (be it Northern or Wirral lines) is that you have to pass through inner city-territory first before you get to the respectable neighbourhoods: Dingle/Brunswick, Bootle, Seaforth, Kirkdale, Birkenhead, North End, Rock Ferry, Bidston, Leasowe, etc.... whilst one of the lines - to Kirkby - falls entirely within this territory - with clientele to match of course.....

I can't agree with you at all on this one. It's very judgemental to tar everyone from those areas with the same brush. I don't find the "clientèle" of the Kirkby line too bad actually. Parts of Fazakerley are very pleasant and not everyone who boards at Rice Lane or Kirkby is a troublemaker by any means.

More significantly, you get these sorts of people in just the same (or higher) numbers on almost any suburban rail network in the country. Some of the types I've seen on the London Overground North London and Watford lines you wouldn't believe. That doesn't mean everyone who uses those services is like that, though.

Furthermore, I don't see what this has to do with the initial point - the main problems are capacity and (external) cleanliness.