And the Thameslink winner is...

[Skimble19]

A sign of things to come..

Courtesy of railway gazette:
http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/ne...ats-bombardier-to-thameslink-train-order.html

 

[sprinterguy]

Very nice! Just got to keep our fingers crossed that First retain the franchise after 2015 or all the work required to create that mock up will have been in vain!

 

[DarloRich]

Desiro is a good unit - it is a proven train type which can hopefully be built quickly and delivered into service in a short time frame

 

[northwichcat]

Desiro is a good unit - it is a proven train type which can hopefully be built quickly and delivered into service in a short time frame

The only usual criticism about Desiros is they are being used on longer routes that they aren't suited for so for Thameslink there shouldn't be any issues.

 

[DarloRich]

They seem ok on all LM routes! The only issue for me is when a high density spec unit turns up on a BHM/Crewe train. That is not ideal.

 

[j0hn0]

thank god for this..... 377/5s BEGONE!!! awful, awful trains in many ways I have said before.

I will miss the 319s as I think they are perfect for the job they do, certainly more room inside than 377's, more comfortable, better door operating mechanism, windows that open so that you can cool down rather than get cooked in the aircon, more reliable, quicker to switch voltage

And being a fan of desiros acceleration, I have to say that this was definitely the right choice

 

[DarloRich]

What is wrong with a 377? The southern ones i get seem pretty good.

 

[CosherB]

Why are the new trains going to the south east while us oop north get the cast-off stuff they'll replace? Why not let us have the new stock and Thameslink keep their current trains? Or they can have our vast fleet of nodding donkeys if they like - let them see how the other half have to live!

 

[sprinterguy]

Why are the new trains going to the south east while us oop north get the cast-off stuff they'll replace? Why not let us have the new stock and Thameslink keep their current trains? Or they can have our vast fleet of nodding donkeys if they like - let them see how the other half have to live!

Because that’s where the money is. And London and South East has more than likely seen the greatest growth in passenger numbers over the last few years: London needs twelve carriage trains while Manchester and Leeds needs four. New trains will benefit the greatest number of people when introduced in London, making the costs easier to recoup and the leasing costs easier to swallow.

And it’s also where the politicians are…

 

[CosherB]

I'd love to see the politicians forced to travel in those Dreadful Donkeys. We'd see some pretty smart new train ordering if that happened!

 

[j0hn0]

What is wrong with a 377? The southern ones i get seem pretty good.

319s have

"more room inside than 377's, more comfortable, better door operating mechanism, windows that open so that you can cool down rather than get cooked in the aircon, more reliable, quicker to switch voltage"

thats not to mention the sandpaper upright narrow boards they call seats with armrests that are too high and ruin your shoulders.

Maybe its a FCC thing but I really am not impressed with them. Desiros are waaay better, even with 3+2 seating as they are softer to touch and have more padding, still criminally narrow though

 

[CosherB]

Oh, that's another thing. No need for voltage switching in the north west, so if we had the new trains they wouldn't need that facility so would be cheaper!

 

[j0hn0]

I'd love to see the politicians forced to travel in those Dreadful Donkeys. We'd see some pretty smart new train ordering if that happened!

have to say I agree, I actually chose to drive into sheffield every day instead of using the pacers, I am amazed they are allowed to be called trains, they don't even have bogies!

 

[northwichcat]

London needs twelve carriage trains while Manchester and Leeds needs four.

Off-peak TransPennine Express services need 4 carriages a lot more than the London Midland 350 operated routes do. At peak times it should be 6 carriages minimum on TPE for current demand - with projected demand in 5 years time it'll need to be 8-10 carriages.

 

[Skimble19]

I do love how whenever a train is ordered for anywhere in "The South" you always get a load of people come and protest and give all sorts of reasons for why they should be ordered for the North instead..

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against the North getting new trains, the Pacers need replacing.. but the South has trains just as old too, and as said above, many routes in the South need 8/12 car trains, whilst up north they generally need 4 car trains (with the exception of FTPE).

 

[DarloRich]

319s have

"more room inside than 377's, more comfortable, better door operating mechanism, windows that open so that you can cool down rather than get cooked in the aircon, more reliable, quicker to switch voltage"

thats not to mention the sandpaper upright narrow boards they call seats with armrests that are too high and ruin your shoulders.

Maybe its a FCC thing but I really am not impressed with them. Desiros are waaay better, even with 3+2 seating as they are softer to touch and have more padding, still criminally narrow though

The Southern ones seem fine to me . Seats ok for a new unit, lots of tables not much 2+3

 

[sprinterguy]

Off-peak TransPennine Express services need 4 carriages a lot more than the London Midland 350 operated routes do. At peak times it should be 6 carriages minimum on TPE for current demand - with projected demand in 5 years time it'll need to be 8-10 carriages.

I was more comparing the local commuter services as a rule of thumb: Transpennine Express certainly needs six carriage trains as is befitting of a reasonably long distance regional operation: It would be fantastic to be able to see more doubled up 185 workings, or at the very least for the fourth carriage for the 185s to be ordered. Oh if only the SRA hadn’t interfered with the 185 order and TPE had ended up with sixty 4-carriage trains. Basically the same Government department that then added on the Manchester to Scotland route onto the franchise a couple of years down the line despite having cut the train order in the first place!

 

[northwichcat]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against the North getting new trains, the Pacers need replacing.. but the South has trains just as old too

Age isn't the only issue. The 1970s built 507s and 508s with Merseyrail are preferred by us Northerners to the 1980s Pacers. Also EMUs are expected to last around 10 years longer than equivalent DMUs, with the South East having the highest proportion of EMUs anywhere in the UK.

many routes in the South need 8/12 car trains, whilst up north they generally need 4 car trains (with the exception of FTPE).

Are you certain that these new trains aren't going to built in 4 and/or 6 car formations allowing coupling up to form the 8/12 car formations?

There are already 4 and a few 5 car formations on Northern Rail routes (especially Buxton and Blackpool services), as well as the EMT Liverpool-Norwich route, where at peak times they are very overcrowded. If anything Northern getting 4 car EMUs is a disadvantage as most platforms at local stations in the North can't take over 6 carriages, so a doubled up 319 could not be used in the North without platform extensions, which are unlikely, whereas a new build of 3 car 377s could be.

 

[b0b]

For once, Thameslink needs custom stock for ATO through the core - so the north can shuddup this one time.

 

[Skimble19]

Thameslink stock will be in fixed 8 and 12 car formations, yes. With those local stations in the north though, how many of them are actually a lot longer than 6 carriages but simply have fences stopping the full length being used?

 

[YorkshireBear]

have to say I agree, I actually chose to drive into sheffield every day instead of using the pacers, I am amazed they are allowed to be called trains, they don't even have bogies!

i live in chapeltown and i much prefer the train to car sheffield city centre is nightmare way worse than a pacer!

 

[northwichcat]

Thameslink stock will be in fixed 8 and 12 car formations, yes.

Based on what I've seen of daytime off peak and weekend capacity on Thameslink at present it seems Thameslink will be carting around a lot of fresh air between the peaks if they will all be 8 car minimum as well as increased services.

With those local stations in the north though, how many of them are actually a lot longer than 6 carriages but simply have fences stopping the full length being used?

At stations served by only local trains i.e. not served by Virgin, XC, TPE, LM, EC or EMT - very few. It's actually the 6 car platforms that have the ends blocked off and overgrown by weeds as I don't think Northern run any formations longer than 5 car.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Actually the 319s are not being replaced because they are "old", but because the Thameslink spec calls for 24tph through the core area using ATO/ETCS. 319s could not be economically retrofitted so a new fleet is required.

Cascading to the North West/Thames Valley is a sensible way of recycling them, despite the local grumbles. Let's hope the interiors are improved on the way.

 

[j0hn0]

i live in chapeltown and i much prefer the train to car sheffield city centre is nightmare way worse than a pacer!

You didn't have to come from Morley then. I would drive to Darton and get the pacer from there. A pacer on fish-plated track, man that was the worst railway travel experience ever. Coupled with the stupid return times, I lost so much time waiting around it was ridiculous. So i did it for 3 days and drove after that, much quicker, despite enraging me beyond belief

needless to say, I stayed at that job for 4 months before moving abroad where my employers paid for my commute (a 15min trip on a dutch double decker)

I don't envy your trip my friend, but at least it's not too long

 

[Skimble19]

Well, as long as they are refurbished as heavily as suggested (including aircon) they could very easily be a very nice train - see the 317/6 + 317/7's as an example of what can be done and then compare it to FCC's 317's..

 

[YorkshireBear]

You didn't have to come from Morley then. I would drive to Darton and get the pacer from there. A pacer on fish-plated track, man that was the worst railway travel experience ever. Coupled with the stupid return times, I lost so much time waiting around it was ridiculous. So i did it for 3 days and drove after that, much quicker, despite enraging me beyond belief

needless to say, I stayed at that job for 4 months before moving abroad where my employers paid for my commute (a 15min trip on a dutch double decker)

I don't envy your trip my friend, but at least it's not too long

ah i see from that far out completely see where your coming from.

Dont feel too bad for me i tend to be quite happy when a 142 turns up, prefer them so much to the 144 with its seating that i can barely fit myself into (usually person next to me has less room because of it)
Ive rode em all my life and know no better :P

 

[b0b]

I don't know why everyone is so down on the 319's, I used to love bashing them between East Croydon and Gatwick Airport, sitting in the motor-car, windows open, whipping along at speed.

They sure made 90mph+ seem really fast and raw.

Give them a chance.

 

[Fincra5]

Why do these new train concepts have sliding doors. Looking at a 378, the sliding doors take up so much room inside the train. Its not like plug doors take that much more time to close, maybe a second or so...

 

[IanXC]

How much of the Thameslink franchise's stock is being replaced in this order?

With the talk of what FGW passengers will think going "down" from Turbos to 319s, it strikes me that that cascade isn't confirmed. Are the 365s leaving TL? If so could they go to GW (seems to be about the same number of carriages - given there'll still be unelectrified branches still an increase).

Also is there anything more anyone knows about the "Class 319 units which are to be redeployed... (and) other areas yet to be confirmed".

 

[swt_passenger]

The only usual criticism about Desiros is they are being used on longer routes that they aren't suited for so for Thameslink there shouldn't be any issues.

There's really only one source of major criticism of Desiros - and that's a few very vocal individuals on the Portsmouth route. I don't think they should be considered typical to be honest.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Oh, that's another thing. No need for voltage switching in the north west, so if we had the new trains they wouldn't need that facility so would be cheaper!

You get dual voltage capability thrown in free anyway with any modern AC EMU - it's how the power electronics work...

What you wouldn't need is DC pick up shoes.