And Another One In Trouble - TfW

[craigybagel]

My issue with TfW is that whilst I completely understand that they have chronic stock shortages, they aren't very resourceful with what they do have and before any says 'well it's not their fault they've had to take over from ATW', yes I agree it was never going to be an easy ride for them but equally I never experienced this said lack of resourcefulness (I don't even know if resourcefulness is a word, but it is now!).

It comes down to silly things like unnecessary set swaps in the middle of the afternoon. Four times last week on my daily commute from Cathays to Waun-Gron Park, I had made the change at Queen Street but was then told that I would have to get off at Central for 'operational purposes', and was told that the replacement set was already at Central waiting for us when in actual fact, it wasn't. Out of two of those four occasions, the first time an announcement wasn't even made on board and upon arrival at Central my train magically turned into a Bargoed train and we went back up to Queen Street and the second time even the crew weren't told until they arrived at Central. More annoyingly in the latter, the replacement unit for the Radyr was actually the Merthyr to Bridgend train, so it would have come straight from Cathays and I could have got a through train home. In that situation, I was getting three trains home, one from Cathays to Queen Street, another to Central (and what should have been direct to Waun-Gron Park) and then another on from there; catching three trains for a 20 minute commute is just bonkers. It's got to the stage where I just stay on from Cathays to Central as I can't trust them anymore.

What particularly annoyed me the most was that the swaps were of no valid reason. I understand I don't work for the railways, but the City Line (xx:36 from Central) became the Bridgend (xx:41) and then vice versa, but how can a train due to arrive at Central at xx:41 for Bridgend form the City Line at xx:36, without travelling back in time? Also, they were both two carriage Pacers, so I'm unsure what the reason was. It wasn't as if they were putting a 153 on the City Line for the afternoon, which would make more sense as the Pacer would probably be better utilised elsewhere.

So in short, I'm not surprised they've been fined such a hefty sum. I just hope that this year they start making use of the limited stock they've got, make resourceful choices and actually think about the effects these choices have instead of just 'doing it' and hoping for the best.

With all due respect, and as you point out yourself, you don't work for the railways; these decisions are not made with "no valid reason", and they're not just "hoping for the best". Philippe does a great job of explaining what's actually going on:

It may not be so pointless as it looks to the outsider if you were totally conversant with diagramming and allocation and trying to keep the job going and making the best use of resources. Swaps may have to be to get units onto jobs to position them for exams or insufficient fuel to see the day out. The reasons are endless but they are done for a good cause.

Sometimes you'll even see set swaps at Cardiff Central where passengers are forced to transfer from one unit to another, when the two units are identical. It's all about where they need to end up at the end of the day. It's all planned out in advance to avoid needing to make changes, but if a unit has a technical fault or some other issue displaces units then changes to the plan need to be made. I think you're being very unfair on the folks in control who are working very hard under difficult circumstances to keep the service going.

Just to be clear, is the very good reason you speak of the reason for the driving time restrictions mentioned by @Caaardiff and I in posts 18 and 19, or those driving time restrictions themselves...?

I'm told it's the type of seats as well as the desk layout. Which begs the question why was it OK on one or two of the old ATW 153's which is the same layout as the GWR ones which arrived and why were they OK for Central trains/GWR to use? It's another barrier put up by train crew. Had it been just the GWR ones then fair enough, but the layouts had already been in use for years on some of the ATW ones.

Not quite sure what you mean here, but the reason for the driving time restriction is the cab layout as drivers require a break after a certain amount of time, reduced because of the layout.

The ATW 153s had various improvements made to them over the years that the FGW units never had. As a result, they are far more suitable for long journeys, so an agreement has been reached that until modified, the drivers won't be expected to work for more then 2 hours at a time in the cab of an ex FGW 153. Some of them have had the required modifications to bring them up to the standards of the ex ATW units, but I'm not sure how much progress has been made exactly.

 

[Parallel]

The ATW 153s had various improvements made to them over the years that the FGW units never had. As a result, they are far more suitable for long journeys, so an agreement has been reached that until modified, the drivers won't be expected to work for more then 2 hours at a time in the cab of an ex FGW 153. Some of them have had the required modifications to bring them up to the standards of the ex ATW units, but I'm not sure how much progress has been made exactly.

Thanks for the info, I had been wondering what the issue was, seeing as they occasionally used to stand in on GWR Great Malvern to Westbury services occasionally with Gloucester train crew working the whole journey!

 

[WelshBluebird]

The ATW 153s had various improvements made to them over the years that the FGW units never had. As a result, they are far more suitable for long journeys, so an agreement has been reached that until modified, the drivers won't be expected to work for more then 2 hours at a time in the cab of an ex FGW 153. Some of them have had the required modifications to bring them up to the standards of the ex ATW units, but I'm not sure how much progress has been made exactly.

Yet weren't GWR staff were expected to work them more than 2 hours at a time? Certainly on more than one occasion back when they were in use, I have been on a GWR stopper between Bristol and Bath formed of a single 153 that would have originated back on the south coast, so more than a 2 hour journey, made by presumably the same staff (I don't think GWR swap staff on stopping services between the south coast and Bristol).

I get the argument that they wouldn't want comfort to be reduced from the levels they were used to, but it does seem odd that GWR staff had to deal with it but ATW / TfW staff can get a 2 hour limit put in place.

 

[ValleyLines142]

With all due respect, and as you point out yourself, you don't work for the railways; these decisions are not made with "no valid reason", and they're not just "hoping for the best". Philippe does a great job of explaining what's actually going on:



Sometimes you'll even see set swaps at Cardiff Central where passengers are forced to transfer from one unit to another, when the two units are identical. It's all about where they need to end up at the end of the day. It's all planned out in advance to avoid needing to make changes, but if a unit has a technical fault or some other issue displaces units then changes to the plan need to be made. I think you're being very unfair on the folks in control who are working very hard under difficult circumstances to keep the service going.

I'm really not, and as I stated in my last post, I am fully aware that they are under a lot of pressure. But as someone paying for a consistently poor service you can see where I'm coming from. I still stand by my point; they aren't at all resourceful.

 

[380101]

Yet weren't GWR staff were expected to work them more than 2 hours at a time? Certainly on more than one occasion back when they were in use, I have been on a GWR stopper between Bristol and Bath formed of a single 153 that would have originated back on the south coast, so more than a 2 hour journey, made by presumably the same staff (I don't think GWR swap staff on stopping services between the south coast and Bristol).

I get the argument that they wouldn't want comfort to be reduced from the levels they were used to, but it does seem odd that GWR staff had to deal with it but ATW / TfW staff can get a 2 hour limit put in place.

It's not odd at all that TFW drivers have got a 2 hour max driving time on the ex GWR 153s. Their driver's ASLEF company council reps did their job and did it well by assessing a 'new" traction type to the fleet and negotiating a deal with the company on how TFW drivers will work the "new" units. (Note, whilst TFW may have already operated 153s, additional units of the same class from another operator will be treated as a new type of traction due to TOC specific differences in them which drivers need to be trained on).

 

[PHILIPE]

I'm really not, and as I stated in my last post, I am fully aware that they are under a lot of pressure. But as someone paying for a consistently poor service you can see where I'm coming from. I still stand by my point; they aren't at all resourceful.

I'm sure the punters would prefer more cancelled services making the service worse still

 

[greaterwest]

153 that would have originated back on the south coast

Class 153's are not permitted beyond Southamton Central on this line.

For perspective, Bristol Temple Meads to Southampton is about 1 hour and 45 minutes stopping at all stations.

 

[craigybagel]

I'm really not, and as I stated in my last post, I am fully aware that they are under a lot of pressure. But as someone paying for a consistently poor service you can see where I'm coming from. I still stand by my point; they aren't at all resourceful.

Would you rather that trains failed mid journey when they run out of fuel or don't get serviced on time - or are cancelled altogether because control refused to alter the diagrams for the day? Because if they didn't make these decisions, that's what happens.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Would you rather that trains failed mid journey when they run out of fuel or don't get serviced on time - or are cancelled altogether because control refused to alter the diagrams for the day? Because if they didn't make these decisions, that's what happens.

Well they regularly get cancelled so I'll never win!

 

[Anonymous10]

They weren't driven by TfW drivers. At least not on the English part as they wouldn't sign the route.
Weren't all the 153's delivered at that time owned by GWR? Just with old liveries? They all arrived with the same cab layout.


I'm told it's the type of seats as well as the desk layout. Which begs the question why was it OK on one or two of the old ATW 153's which is the same layout as the GWR ones which arrived and why were they OK for Central trains/GWR to use? It's another barrier put up by train crew. Had it been just the GWR ones then fair enough, but the layouts had already been in use for years on some of the ATW ones.



Pacers are diagrammed for West Wales at the moment. It's probably best to send the Pacers west at the moment, freeing up 150's for the Valleys which have more capacity if running around as a single unit.



Another management bright idea. Apparently unions kicked up a fuss at "shortage of train crew" being used, because there wasn't a shortage of train crew (as in the number employed). There was a high rate of sickness (?) over the Christmas period and less people taking overtime, meaning "less resources available". Seems to be the common reason used at the moment for most delays which probably isn't accurate.



Not quite sure what you mean here, but the reason for the driving time restriction is the cab layout as drivers require a break after a certain amount of time, reduced because of the layout.

Oh ok I'm not used to it and was thinking why send it here god I rather a 153

 

[anamyd]

People, there's a Senedd committee meeting coming up on Wednesday the 29/1/20, with a 45 minute Scrutiny of Wales and Borders Rail Services session, featuring Bill Kelly (route director Network Rail W&B) and James Price (CEO TfW) finally together, over a year after James suggested this, along with Lee Jones (Chair KA Wales / TfW Rail).

Then, another 45 minute General scrutiny of Transport for Wales session where James Price will be joined by Scott Waddington (Chair TfW).

Here's the link (clicking "View the webcast" after it's been uploaded will take you to the video):

http://senedd.assembly.wales/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=446&MId=5953&Ver=4

I can't wait!

Also, in case anyone missed it, or has "been slacking on checking Companies House lately":

TRANSPORT FOR WALES - Registered office address changed from Qed Centre Main Avenue Treforest Industrial Estate Pontypridd Rhondda Cynon Taff CF37 5YR to 5th Floor, South Gate House Wood Street Cardiff CF10 1EW on 29 November 2019

KEOLIS AMEY WALES CYMRU LIMITED - Registered office address changed from C/O Amey Rail Maindee Depot Off Caerleon Road Newport NP19 9DZ United Kingdom to 2 Callaghan Square Cardiff CF10 5AZ on 18 December 2019

KEOLIS (UK) LIMITED - Registered office address changed from Evergreen Building North 160 Euston Road London NW1 2DX to 2 Callaghan Square Cardiff CF10 5AZ on 23 December 2019

KA Wales (TfW Rail) still have their Customer Relations department at St. Mary's House, 47 Penarth Road, Cardiff, CF10 5DJ however (according to the TfW Rail website).

 

[CambrianCoast]

People, there's a Senedd committee meeting coming up on Wednesday the 29/1/20, with a 45 minute Scrutiny of Wales and Borders Rail Services session, featuring Bill Kelly (route director Network Rail W&B) and James Price (CEO TfW) finally together, over a year after James suggested this, along with Lee Jones (Chair KA Wales / TfW Rail).

Then, another 45 minute General scrutiny of Transport for Wales session where James Price will be joined by Scott Waddington (Chair TfW).

Here's the link (clicking "View the webcast" after it's been uploaded will take you to the video):

http://senedd.assembly.wales/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=446&MId=5953&Ver=4

I can't wait!

Also, in case anyone missed it, or has "been slacking on checking Companies House lately":

TRANSPORT FOR WALES - Registered office address changed from Qed Centre Main Avenue Treforest Industrial Estate Pontypridd Rhondda Cynon Taff CF37 5YR to 5th Floor, South Gate House Wood Street Cardiff CF10 1EW on 29 November 2019

KEOLIS AMEY WALES CYMRU LIMITED - Registered office address changed from C/O Amey Rail Maindee Depot Off Caerleon Road Newport NP19 9DZ United Kingdom to 2 Callaghan Square Cardiff CF10 5AZ on 18 December 2019

KEOLIS (UK) LIMITED - Registered office address changed from Evergreen Building North 160 Euston Road London NW1 2DX to 2 Callaghan Square Cardiff CF10 5AZ on 23 December 2019

KA Wales (TfW Rail) still have their Customer Relations department at St. Mary's House, 47 Penarth Road, Cardiff, CF10 5DJ however (according to the TfW Rail website).

It’s more complicated than that if that’s even possible...

Keolis Amey Operations is essentially the TOC with its registered office listed as 2 Callaghan Square, Cardiff.

Then there’s Amey Keolis Infrastructure which I think is the South Wales Metro / Core Valley Lines side with a registered address at Transport For Wales Cvl Infrastructure Depot, Ty Trafnidiaeth, Treforest Industrial Estate

And then Transport for Wales Rail Services as noted previously being in St Mary’s House. What a hotchpotch!!

 

[Cardiff123]

It’s more complicated than that if that’s even possible...

Keolis Amey Operations is essentially the TOC with its registered office listed as 2 Callaghan Square, Cardiff.

Then there’s Amey Keolis Infrastructure which I think is the South Wales Metro / Core Valley Lines side with a registered address at Transport For Wales Cvl Infrastructure Depot, Ty Trafnidiaeth, Treforest Industrial Estate

And then Transport for Wales Rail Services as noted previously being in St Mary’s House. What a hotchpotch!!

It's significant though that Keolis Amey have kept their promise to move their UK HQ from London to Cardiff, and eventually to Pontypridd by the end of this year. They also promised to move their Global HQ from France to Cardiff/Pontypridd on winning the franchise.....

 

[CambrianCoast]

It's significant though that Keolis Amey have kept their promise to move their UK HQ from London to Cardiff, and eventually to Pontypridd by the end of this year. They also promised to move their Global HQ from France to Cardiff/Pontypridd on winning the franchise.....

Indeed. Time will tell as with anything I guess.

 

[Journeyman]

I was involved in assessing some aspects of the bids for this franchise. What TfW want is extremely ambitious, and it doesn't surprise me at all that it's run into trouble.

 

[CambrianCoast]

I was involved in assessing some aspects of the bids for this franchise. What TfW want is extremely ambitious, and it doesn't surprise me at all that it's run into trouble.

What in particular has run into trouble?

 

[krus_aragon]

What in particular has run into trouble?

From the outside, I see late PRM modifications, waiting on inbound rolling stock, and delays to the transfer of the Valley Lines' infrastructure. Nothing catastrophic, but timescales slipping.

 

[Caaardiff]

Most of TfW ambitions haven't even started to be rolled out yet, which centres around a new fleet and valleys lines infrastructure!
Where TfW has 'run into trouble' is 769 and 230 delays which has had a snowball effect on the rest of the fleet, both in terms of freeing up for PRM mods and reliability.
Theres a few smaller factors that has affected performance, such as christmas leave and sickness for train crew and from reading twitter complaints appears to be issues with reliability on the 170s. Maesteg, cheltenham and Ebbw lines seem to get quite a few mentions for delays and breakdowns lately.

 

[woolos]

People, there's a Senedd committee meeting coming up on Wednesday the 29/1/20, with a 45 minute Scrutiny of Wales and Borders Rail Services session, featuring Bill Kelly (route director Network Rail W&B) and James Price (CEO TfW) finally together, over a year after James suggested this, along with Lee Jones (Chair KA Wales / TfW Rail).

Then, another 45 minute General scrutiny of Transport for Wales session where James Price will be joined by Scott Waddington (Chair TfW).

Here's the link (clicking "View the webcast" after it's been uploaded will take you to the video):

http://senedd.assembly.wales/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=446&MId=5953&Ver=4

I can't wait!

Also, in case anyone missed it, or has "been slacking on checking Companies House lately":

TRANSPORT FOR WALES - Registered office address changed from Qed Centre Main Avenue Treforest Industrial Estate Pontypridd Rhondda Cynon Taff CF37 5YR to 5th Floor, South Gate House Wood Street Cardiff CF10 1EW on 29 November 2019

KEOLIS AMEY WALES CYMRU LIMITED - Registered office address changed from C/O Amey Rail Maindee Depot Off Caerleon Road Newport NP19 9DZ United Kingdom to 2 Callaghan Square Cardiff CF10 5AZ on 18 December 2019

KEOLIS (UK) LIMITED - Registered office address changed from Evergreen Building North 160 Euston Road London NW1 2DX to 2 Callaghan Square Cardiff CF10 5AZ on 23 December 2019

KA Wales (TfW Rail) still have their Customer Relations department at St. Mary's House, 47 Penarth Road, Cardiff, CF10 5DJ however (according to the TfW Rail website).

The committees are meeting at 0930 and 1030

 

[HH]

I was also involved in assessing some aspects of this franchise. It doesn't surprise me that there are driver shortages; these will likely get worse when the full timetable comes into effect.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

TfW is contracted to deliver a specific number of peak-hour seats into Cardiff, Manchester, Birmingham and other places on the network.
For whatever reason, a shortfall will attract a penalty.
The franchise may not be "failing" like Northern, TPE and SWR, but it is certainly suffering from a capacity point of view.

 

[PHILIPE]

I was also involved in assessing some aspects of this franchise. It doesn't surprise me that there are driver shortages; these will likely get worse when the full timetable comes into effect.

Haven't TFW been recruiting heavily during their first year ? The only really noticeable shortage has been during the Christmas period which may have been due to management of leave arrangements. Training has contributed to demands on drivers caused mainly by the training of all links at a major Depot on Class 170s which if cut back would mean "new" units and nobody to drive them.

 

[Caaardiff]

Haven't TFW been recruiting heavily during their first year ? The only really noticeable shortage has been during the Christmas period which may have been due to management of leave arrangements. Training has contributed to demands on drivers caused mainly by the training of all links at a major Depot on Class 170s which if cut back would mean "new" units and nobody to drive them.

Exactly. TfW arent necessarily short of drivers. As you say it's been compounded by driver training on 170s in the south and 153s in the north, as well as christmas leave and sickness. The new timetable is already in full swing isnt it? There haven't been many cancellations due to lack of train crew lately as any shortages are covered by overtime which everyone is willing to do this time of year. Once the new trainee drivers are all qualified then numbers 'should've be in a good place.

 

[craigybagel]

Haven't TFW been recruiting heavily during their first year ? The only really noticeable shortage has been during the Christmas period which may have been due to management of leave arrangements. Training has contributed to demands on drivers caused mainly by the training of all links at a major Depot on Class 170s which if cut back would mean "new" units and nobody to drive them.

Exactly. TfW arent necessarily short of drivers. As you say it's been compounded by driver training on 170s in the south and 153s in the north, as well as christmas leave and sickness. The new timetable is already in full swing isnt it? There haven't been many cancellations due to lack of train crew lately as any shortages are covered by overtime which everyone is willing to do this time of year. Once the new trainee drivers are all qualified then numbers 'should've be in a good place.

There are various factors at play here. Every TOC struggles more in the build up to Christmas as as many people as can be on annual leave will be. There are agreed quotas at every depot that limit the number of people who can be on annual leave at any one time which means that on paper, there should always be enough traincrew available to run the service at all times. Around Christmas, and again in mid summer, those quotas tend to be fully used up. On its own, that shouldn't be enough to cause disruption - but if mixed with other issues then you run into problems.

In TFWs case, they have lost a lot of drivers over the last year or two to other TOCs. They also had a large amount of training required to take place on new fleets. Normally these shortfalls could be made up with Rest Day Working, but unsurprisingly not many people want to spend even more time away from family then they already do around the holiday season.

Now we're into the new year, and all of those issues have eased off. Not many people take annual leave around now, so there are more staff available. Traction training has eased off a little, and at the moment more trainees are passing out then current staff are leaving, so the overall numbers of staff available is increasing.

Over the next few months, there are likely to be challenges. As well as the ongoing 170 training 230 and MKIV training is going to be a factor, and as the weather gets warmer more people will be using up their annual leave entitlements as well. However, the training centres are still working flat out so hopefully now we're seeing staff numbers continue to rise we'll be able to see this current good patch of staff availability continue.

 

[Cardiff123]

From the outside, I see late PRM modifications, waiting on inbound rolling stock, and delays to the transfer of the Valley Lines' infrastructure. Nothing catastrophic, but timescales slipping.

Ironically though, none of those things are TfW's fault, nor could they do anything about them.

Late PRM mods - fault of Arriva TW / Welsh Govt & DfT inaction during the last franchise
Delays to extra/replacement rolling stock - 769s - fault of Porterbrook, 230s - fault of Vivarail etc.
Delays to transfer of Valley lines infrastructure - fault of DfT / NR and Boris Johnson calling a December general election.

 

[PHILIPE]

Numerous cancellations/truncated journeys this morning due to "late from Depot". Complaints made through the media as a result and, following interview, TFWs response was a meaningless "operational challenges".

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Numerous cancellations/truncated journeys this morning due to "late from Depot". Complaints made through the media as a result and, following interview, TFWs response was a meaningless "operational challenges".

The first Mk4 set on test has just left Holyhead on its way back to Crewe (via Llandudno), which is at least some progress on rolling stock cascade.

 

[PHILIPE]

The first Mk4 set on test has just left Holyhead on its way back to Crewe (via Llandudno), which is at least some progress on rolling stock cascade.

Plenty of discussion and picture here on todays journey:-

www.railforums.co.uk/threads/ex-lner-mark-4-sets-for-tfw.182406/page-14

 

[Cardiff123]

Numerous cancellations/truncated journeys this morning due to "late from Depot". Complaints made through the media as a result and, following interview, TFWs response was a meaningless "operational challenges".

In other words, "our knackered and life expired trains are giving up on us"

 

[PHILIPE]

In other words, "our knackered and life expired trains are giving up on us"

Probably driver after driver having to call for the fitters before they can leave the Depot