Anarchy in Calais

[Johnuk123]

THOUSANDS of migrants stormed Eurotunnel’s Calais terminal last night.
More than 2,200 illegal immigrants breached fencing this morning in a bid to make it to Britain.
Scenes of pandemonium saw migrants pour in through holes in the fencing, raising serious questions about the port's security.About 200 security staff, including riot police, scrambled to deal with the trouble, which lasted six hours from midnight.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/59...SANDS-migrants-storm-Eurotunnel-night-anarchy

The Foreign Office is advising travellers to avoid Calais and Northern France.
Eurotunnel is saying don't travel on a day trip because you won't get back even if you get there.

The French know every economic migrant that gets across the channel is one less for them to bother with so they have no intention of stopping them which they aren't.

I feel really sorry for the lorry drivers and it's only a matter of time before we have a driver pulled from his cab and killed.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There comes a time when Interpol has to liaise better with regards this current fiasco. None of those who are gathered in the makeshift camps have any intention whatsoever of making officially sanctioned entry applications to Britain and Islamic State must view this situation as a gift from Allah to try to get their members into Britain.

 

[Johnuk123]

There comes a time when Interpol has to liaise better with regards this current fiasco. None of those who are gathered in the makeshift camps have any intention whatsoever of making officially sanctioned entry applications to Britain and Islamic State must view this situation as a gift from Allah to try to get their members into Britain.

This has always been the plan to smuggle in trained terrorists as sleeper cells, they've certainly told Europe enough times.

Operation Stack is going to be virtually permanent, because as soon as it's lifted it's back on again.

The French have no intention of stopping them and we have no idea whatsoever of solving it. If we upset the French they've said they will withdraw permission for our border staff to be in France so making things even worse.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...New-deal-to-send-migrants-home-to-Africa.html

Britain and France have agreed a deal to step up removals of Calais migrants to Africa in what Theresa May, the Home Secretary, described as an “important step forward”.
Mrs May said that after a meeting with Bernard Cazeneuve, the French interior minster, there will be new moves to repatriate would-be illegal immigrants who currently gather in their thousands in make-shift camps outside the French port.

As to a man these migrants have no passports and will not say where they have been shipped from I don't see any African countries accepting them back so this is probably more unworkable rubbish to make it look like we have an idea what we're doing.

 

[CC 72100]

According to the French home secretary, it's all Eurotunnel's fault:

http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/2...0301-migrants-cazeneuve-accuse-eurotunnel.php

Le ministre de l'Intérieur, Bernard Cazeneuve, a accusé Eurotunnel de n'avoir pas fait les efforts nécessaires face à «l'aggravation de la situation» entraînée par l'afflux massif de migrants, dans une lettre au président du groupe. Depuis plusieurs semaines, les tentatives d'intrusion sur le site d'Eurotunnel de migrants cherchant à passer au Royaume-Uni sont quotidiennes. Le groupe, qui critique le nombre insuffisant de forces de l'ordre dans la zone, affirme qu'environ 2.200 migrants ont «tenté de rentrer» sur le site du tunnel sous la Manche dans la nuit d'hier à aujourd'hui. «Le groupe Eurotunnel, dont relève la sécurité de l'enceinte et de l'intérieur de l'emprise, n'a pas fait, selon mon analyse, des efforts à due proportion de l'aggravation de la situation», a dénoncé le ministre dans cette lettre adressée le 23 juillet au président du groupe Eurotunnel, Jacques Gounon.

«Je souhaiterais que vous vous interrogiez davantage sur les moyens humains que vous entendez consacrer à la sécurisation de ce site», a-t-il ajouté, estimant que le groupe avait divisé par trois les moyens humains consacrés à la sécurité depuis 2002. «Pendant ce temps, l'Etat multipliait ses moyens par cinq et créait un fond d'intervention franco-britannique (...). De manière permanente, une présence exceptionnelle de 350 CRS et gendarmes mobiles contribue chaque jour à prévenir les intrusions», a souligné Bernard Cazeneuve, qui se trouve aujourd'hui à Londres pour évoquer les questions liées aux migrants avec son homologue Theresa May.

Main points:

- Eurotunnel has criticized the lack of police presence in the area in light of the attempts.

- The home secretary has in turn criticized Eurotunnel for not having made the neccesary efforts to avoid the situation getting worse.

- The home secretary wanted Eurotunnel to have more human resources on site, claiming that the security staff at Eurotunnel now make up just a 1/3rd of the security staff they had in 2002.

- The home secretary claims that during this time, the state has increased its efforts five-fold, including a permanent presence of 350 riot police officers (CRS).

Make of all that what you will, I personally had the impression that the french had adopted a 'hands off' / do the minimum approach when I traveled through Calais last August after two hours on the bypass with migrants over the road in and out of cars, but I guess there is only so much the forces can actually do. Or maybe there is a limit to how much they actually want to do...

 

[Domh245]

I don't see how anyone could blame Eurotunnel for this! They've got substantial enough security, but even if Eurotunnel employed private mercenaries (STM security with MP5s anyone?) migrants would still be trying to gain access. As I understand, they are in fact trying to recuperate costs from the UK and French Parliaments for loss of earnings

Somebody needs to find a sustainable solution, and quick!

 

[HilversumNS]

The French should adopt the Australian approach.

Any illegals they find, move them to holding areas on Reunion and Mayotte until their asylum processes are completed. The numbers would soon reduce to 0.

Shame that their solution of "let's do nothing and let Britain deal with them" is their preferred method.

 

[Johnuk123]

The French should adopt the Australian approach.

Any illegals they find, move them to holding areas on Reunion and Mayotte until their asylum processes are completed. The numbers would soon reduce to 0.

Shame that their solution of "let's do nothing and let Britain deal with them" is their preferred method.

Let's face it the French have a very long history of looking after their own interests first and to hell with everybody else.

You have to hand it to them, it's always France first, how I wish we were the same but we'll never be like them as we have a tradition of always looking after everybody else first.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

- The home secretary wanted Eurotunnel to have more human resources on site, claiming that the security staff at Eurotunnel now make up just a 1/3rd of the security staff they had in 2002.

What can they do? It needs to be police who can actually do something to stop people - if 2,000 people attempt to swarm the tunnel, what power would a Eurotunnel employee have to stop them?

I think another month of this and people will be expecting the government to send in stronger forces to deal with the issue.

 

[CC 72100]

What can they do? It needs to be police who can actually do something to stop people - if 2,000 people attempt to swarm the tunnel, what power would a Eurotunnel employee have to stop them?

I think another month of this and people will be expecting the government to send in stronger forces to deal with the issue.

Oh I totally agree - not much! Calais is out of control yet the French approach seems to be that they are not interested until the situation reaches a critical enough level. Judging as an outsider, said level has been reached, but what will it take? A mass boycott of Calais? A lorry driver being stabbed?

To copy my post from the other thread http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=117455&page=6:

When there's a straw that breaks the camel's back - how much it takes is anybody's guess, last night events seem pretty serious yet there seems to be no great urgency at all.

Interestingly enough, it was only when the protests turned violent and taxi drivers started assaulting private hire vehicle drivers their customers that the French state intervened in the long running saga between traditional taxi drivers and Uber. The former had carried out many protests and blocking of key routes around Paris, but it was only when physical violence came to the fore (burning cars, injuring police officers etc. : http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-fra...-violences.php) that the French state finally started acting definitively - coming down on the side of the traditional taxi drivers, naturally.

The taxi episode reflects my own view and belief of the French government's approach to the Calais situation at the moment - there will be a moment where they cannot not act, and that where there is a will there is a way (the headline one French paper led with after the taxi affair). For the moment it seems that we have not reached the 'flashpoint' for action, nor is there great enough will yet.

If the above looks like 'France bashing' - well, this is from someone who lived in France, speaks fluent French and is going to aim to go for a weekend before Christmas (would be longer, now have job to occupy me most of the time!) and who loves the culture and its people, but even I'd give Calais a wide berth at the moment.

 

[bb21]

I feel really sorry for the lorry drivers and it's only a matter of time before we have a driver pulled from his cab and killed.

Is this really necessary John? Hysterics much?

Yes there is a problem, but I don't think there is any need to resort to such hyperbole. Has anyone actually been killed? Is there anything to suggest this would happen?

 

[Senex]

What can they do? It needs to be police who can actually do something to stop people - if 2,000 people attempt to swarm the tunnel, what power would a Eurotunnel employee have to stop them?

I think another month of this and people will be expecting the government to send in stronger forces to deal with the issue.

Not the police any more. It now needs to be the army -- and the French do have a substantial, well-equipped, and very capable military. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the debate over the reduction in Eurotunnel's security forces and the increase in government staffing, the situation seems to be way beyond what any private organisation could be expected to cope with. Eurotunnel, Eurostar, and the thousands of truck-drivers (and private travellers) ought to be able to go about their lawful business without impediment from these criminals (and I would call them criminals rather than the BBC's favoured "migrants" the moment they start trying to break in to a secure area -- even if it isn't at the moment proving as secure as it should be!).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

France has enough North African resident immigrants from its days of Empire in its own cities and towns to deal with as a matter of everyday occurrences and I am sure that the problems on their northern coastline will be another headache for them.

France, Britain and Germany as the bigger powers in the EU will have the matter of ISIL always to the fore and any such matters they will need to employ will be used should the need so arise, without the niceties of the matter of the lack of passport holding. Incidentally, a number of over 2,000 of these men who make a co-ordinated attack is not just a matter of small-scale disruption but a matter that the paramilitary police or even the Legion Etrangere need to deal with.

 

[Johnuk123]

Is this really necessary John? Hysterics much?

Yes there is a problem, but I don't think there is any need to resort to such hyperbole. Has anyone actually been killed? Is there anything to suggest this would happen?

Yes plenty if you care to look.


http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/theyve-knives-sharp-you-could-5949207

"If there are more than two or three of them together you need to be worried. They've got knives that are so sharp you could shave with them."A guy had a go at me here the other day. He was waving his iron bar at me. I said, 'Don't wave that at me, I've got one twice the size of that in my cab'."

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/583118/Migrants-threaten-truckers-British-drivers-fear-lives-Calais

MACHETE-wielding migrants have made Calais a war zone with truckers risking their lives every day to bring goods to Britain.
Frightened drivers describe being threatened at knife-point, beaten with baseball bats and having their trailers slashed as asylum-seekers try to stowaway across the Channel.
Freight firm boss Kevin Hopper said: "It's just a matter of time now before someone is killed."John Mordue, 50, said: "My mate was threatened by a migrant with a knife and his exact words were, 'I'll kill you, I don't care'.
Kevin Hopper, managing director of haulage firm Brian Yeardley Continental Ltd, said: "The fear of what is coming gives me sleepless
"My worst nightmare is getting a call to say one of my drivers has been stabbed or worse. Calais is a battlefield.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-32834067

A lorry driver who uses cross-channel routes has said he is "frightened for his life" by illegal immigrants trying to board his lorry in Calais.
"If I think about it now, I'm in fear of my life and I'm not by myself on this, several of my colleagues also spoke about that.
"Their [illegal immigrants] attitude, their whole goal is just to get to the UK irrespective of what damage, or damage to persons, vehicles, property they cause, it doesn't matter.
"They were raising fists, there was a bloke with an iron bar because I was blowing the horn to alert the driver in front that they were getting into his trailer. That's the bit they don't like, blowing your horn."It's only a matter of time before somebody is seriously injured, killed or windows are smashed and people are dragged out of their trucks. It's an unbelievable experience to go through."

http://utv.ie/News/2015/07/27/Irish-truck-driver-held-at-knifepoint-by-Calais-migrants-41885

Irish truck driver held at knifepoint by Calais migrants.

Irish truck drivers say they fear for their lives after a driver was held at knifepoint by migrants in the French port city of Calais.
Graham Lowndes of TTS Transport was taking a rest stop in Calais in the early hours of Monday morning when he was held at knife-point by a migrant.
Despite having only covered a four-mile distance in almost six hours due to slow-moving and heavy traffic, it is mandatory by law for drivers to take a rest period every nine hours.
The driver was interrupted by a migrant banging on his door and asking for cigarettes.
While he was distracted, a second man broke into his lorry and held him at knifepoint.
The men left after they had stolen an iPhone from the truck.

http://news.sky.com/story/1513784/migrant-crisis-uk-hauliers-fear-calais-deaths

British haulage officials have told Sky News that people will die if the authorities fail to do more to protect lorry drivers travelling through Calais.
The chief executive of the Road Haulage Association, Richard Burnett, told Sky News the French military should be deployed.
He said: "Put yourself in their situation: you've got 20 migrants around your truck and you're on your own trying to get them off.
"They are intimidating, some of them have metal bars, knives and, in one incident, a gun was pointed at a trucker. Somebody is going to get killed."

I am not going to spend all day looking for links I will just say if you think it's hysterical to suggest a trucker might be killed you are entitled to that opinion.
If you think these truckers are all making it up and their fears are groundless that is up to you.
Sky showed a migrant walking along the central reservation of the motorway carrying a massive machete, obviously to peel his grapes I assume.
As you accuse me of hyperbole and being hysterical then why not provide some proof that lorry drivers in general are not worried and have no fear of attack whilst being surrounded by armed mobs in Calais.

 

[AM9]

I think that the French government doesn't see it as anything more than a mild embarassment at the moment. Pays de Calais and northern France in general is about as important to Paris as parts of the north of England is to Westminster. The region is useful for some good export and import but it's not an area where many parisiennes make frequent visits.
The problem is really Cameron's with his insistence that other countries do the dirty work of keeping migrants out of the UK. None of this would happen if Dover, Folkestone, Ashford, Ebbsfleet and St Pancras had proper entry control. I expect this to get worse as the anti-immigrant (mainly) right-wing politicians try in vain to legislate against the flow. If they want to do it on other people's territory they will need to set up a Guantanamo style zone that is properly enforced, but of course that would:

a) cost lots of money
and
b) require the rest of Europe to agree, (EU membership is irrelevant)

The problem is comparable to that that the US has at the Mexican border. It takes serious money to resist a natural migration, - a lot more than the huffing and puffing that the media and government are doing now. I note that Cameron is slightly more conciliatory in his words in the last couple of days so maybe he is learning, but it will take a lot longer for his right-wing to see the light.

 

[WestCoast]

France has enough North African resident immigrants from its days of Empire in its own cities and towns to deal with as a matter of everyday occurrences and I am sure that the problems on their northern coastline will be another headache for them

Sure there's a problem in Calais, but migrants and asylum is very much a Europe wide issue rather the UK's or France's problem.

It's arguably worse elsewhere in Europe too. In 2014, Germany for instance had six times the number of asylum applications compared to the UK (202,815 vs 31,945). There's a lot of organisations with volunteers to help refugees where I live, but equally there's sections of society who hate them and have acted by burning down homes etc in recent years.

France and Italy both double the UK. Sweden, which has a far smaller population than the UK, had 80,000+.

But the press would have you believe that they all, whether legitimate people seeking asylum or economic migrants, want to get to the UK.

 

[HilversumNS]

None of this would happen if Dover, Folkestone, Ashford, Ebbsfleet and St Pancras had proper entry control.

This would result in 5000 immigrants, mostly illegal becoming the UK's responsibility. Within days, 1000s would swarm up from Italy and everywhere else in order to take advantage of the UK system.

None of them will have passports, and the possibility of returning them to their own country is almost 0.

In 2014, UNHCR estimate at least 348,000 migrants crossed the Mediterranean. Move the entry controls to UK soil, and 99% of them will head for the UK, with passive assistance from Italy and France.

 

[DarloRich]

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/59...SANDS-migrants-storm-Eurotunnel-night-anarchy

The Foreign Office is advising travellers to avoid Calais and Northern France.
Eurotunnel is saying don't travel on a day trip because you won't get back even if you get there.

The French know every economic migrant that gets across the channel is one less for them to bother with so they have no intention of stopping them which they aren't.

I feel really sorry for the lorry drivers and it's only a matter of time before we have a driver pulled from his cab and killed.

My solution would be quite simple, and may suprise you beig the terrible leftist i am:

1) Send in the army ( jointly with France - alone if required)

2) Secure the port

3) set up rings around Calais with checkpoints. Those without the correct papers sent to holding camps under guard

4) Those with genuine asylum requirements screened and dealt with those without removed to their country of origin, under guard if required.


A linked bonus is that we recover Calais which is ours as of right

 

[AM9]

My solution would be quite simple, and may suprise you beig the terrible leftist i am:

1) Send in the army ( jointly with France - alone if required)

2) Secure the port

3) set up rings around Calais with checkpoints. Those without the correct papers sent to holding camps under guard

4) Those with genuine asylum requirements screened and dealt with those without removed to their country of origin, under guard if required.


A linked bonus is that we recover Calais which is ours as of right

That is the 'Guantanomo' solution that I alluded to but as I said, it would cost a lot of money, and unless we are thinking of invading a fellow EU state, would require explicit agreement from all states (as anybody legally entitled to EU freedom of movement would have a say) and most importantly, the French residents trapped within the zone.

Forcibly removing people back to their 'country of origin' would be difficult as they are mostly already legitimately in the EU Schengen area and would certainly fall foul of UN refugee rules.

 

[DarloRich]

That is the 'Guantanomo' solution that I alluded to but as I said, it would cost a lot of money, and unless we are thinking of invading a fellow EU state, would require explicit agreement from all states (as anybody legally entitled to EU freedom of movement would have a say) and most importantly, the French residents trapped within the zone.

Forcibly removing people back to their 'country of origin' would be difficult as they are mostly already legitimately in the EU Schengen area and would certainly fall foul of UN refugee rules.

The french residents will already have papers so will not be impacted. We wont be invading we will be invited in having offered our services to the clearly hard pressed French to support their efforts to combat this problem. As for the rest they can sue once they get home.

 

[HilversumNS]

1) Send in the army ( jointly with France - alone if required)

2) Secure the port

3) set up rings around Calais with checkpoints. Those without the correct papers sent to holding camps under guard

This amounts to sending UK troops onto foreign soil, that of an ally and a NATO partner, and would be seen as an act of military aggression.

The current UKBA staff are on French soil with their consent, your plan would not get consent and therefore be an act of war The French would be perfectly within their rights to use force to expel the UK troops.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The problem is comparable to that that the US has at the Mexican border. It takes serious money to resist a natural migration, - a lot more than the huffing and puffing that the media and government are doing now. I note that Cameron is slightly more conciliatory in his words in the last couple of days so maybe he is learning, but it will take a lot longer for his right-wing to see the light.

I beg to differ, The Mexican immigrant problem for the US is that of the residents of a neighbouring country attempting to cross a land border.

Those African illegal immigrants on the French coastline hoping to gain access to Britain are NOT residents of France wishing to enter Britain.

 

[DarloRich]

This amounts to sending UK troops onto foreign soil, that of an ally and a NATO partner, and would be seen as an act of military aggression.

The current UKBA staff are on French soil with their consent, your plan would not get consent and therefore be an act of war The French would be perfectly within their rights to use force to expel the UK troops.

We aren't going to invade France! we would be there to support them at their invitation. They clearly need help.

Anyway the French tend to surrender at the first sign of invasion

 

[HilversumNS]

We aren't going to invade France! we would be there to support them at their invitation. They clearly need help.

Can you realistically see them inviting UK troops onto their soil? They don't need help, they need to start managing the problem themselves, rather than doing nothing.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

This amounts to sending UK troops onto foreign soil, that of an ally and a NATO partner, and would be seen as an act of military aggression.

The current UKBA staff are on French soil with their consent, your plan would not get consent and therefore be an act of war The French would be perfectly within their rights to use force to expel the UK troops.

Would a combined NATO force of various nations under French leadership be seen as helping France to resolve this matter which could be viewed as a matter of striking at ISIL if a reason needed to be given.

In the meantime, a battalion of unemployed Millwall and Chelsea football supporters could be formed to assist the UKBA using their undoubted skills..

 

[Buttsy]

Anyway the French tend to surrender at the first sign of invasion

Cheese-eating surrender monkeys eh?

Historically, the French have won more battles than they've lost than any other European nation (source: QI), so you'd actually want them on your side...

 

[HilversumNS]

Would a combined NATO force of various nations under French leadership be seen as helping France to resolve this matter which could be viewed as a matter of striking at ISIL if a reason needed to be given.

NATO would never agree to this. It is a refugee problem much more than a terrorist one.

France could do an awful lot to reduce the problem, if they were inclined to do so. They deployed over 50,000 police and army personnel within hours of the Charlie Hebdo attacks.

 

[DarloRich]

Cheese-eating surrender monkeys eh?

Historically, the French have won more battles than they've lost than any other European nation (source: QI), so you'd actually want them on your side...

I know - hence the Although their record against us isn't fantastic

Can you realistically see them inviting UK troops onto their soil? They don't need help, they need to start managing the problem themselves, rather than doing nothing.

No - i cant see troops of any sort being used.

What should happen is the French doing more to combat the problem and to start living up to their responsibilities. other European nations need to do the same as the problem doesn't start at Calais, it simply ends there.

 

[HilversumNS]

What should happen is the French doing more to combat the problem and to start standing up to their responsibilities as do other European nations as the problem doesn't start at Calais, it simply ends there.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[AM9]

I know - hence the Although their record against us isn't fantastic



No - i cant see troops of any sort being used.

What should happen is the French doing more to combat the problem and to start standing up to their responsibilities as do other European nations as the problem doesn't start at Calais, it simply ends there.

I can't see France or any other EU state being that interested as long as Cameron insists that the UK doesn't take a quota of the refugees that are going into the nearest states to Northern Africa, namely Italy, Greece and Spain.
It is an inconvenience for France, but really it's only a British problem. Britain's separatist attitudes reduce any sympathy that they might get in Europe. If we are taken out of the EU, it will get worse.

 

[DarloRich]

I can't see France or any other EU state being that interested as long as Cameron insists that the UK doesn't take a quota of the refugees that are going into the nearest states to Northern Africa, namely Italy, Greece and Spain.
It is an inconvenience for France, but really it's only a British problem. Britain's separatist attitudes reduce any sympathy that they might get in Europe. If we are taken out of the EU, it will get worse.

We aren't taking a quota but we will take those seriously seeking asylum or fleeing persecution. What the other European nations need to do is take a similar stance. Stop talking about quotas and sharing things out and start talking about sending people back asap who don't meet the criteria for asylum.