An observation - platform crowding

[mailman]

Made an interesting observation (well it was to me) this morning while waiting 20 minutes before I could get on to an underground train at Kings Cross this morning.

When I got to the platform it was pretty empty (835am) but I did not that the next train wasnt for another 4 minutes.

By the time the time to the next train had got down to 2 minutes the platform was probably half full. By the time the train finally arrived the platform was completely full with people not being able to come on the the platform, which made it difficult for people to get off and on to the train.

It seemed to me that a window of opportunity was missed at the 2 minute mark to get people on to and off trains while the platform while the platform was relatively uncongested. However, because it took such a long time to arrive, the congestion was so bad that the trains that came afterwards just couldnt reduce the congestion on the platform.

In fact it seemed quite a dangerous place to be as all it would have taken was for one inadvertant shoulder to push someone in to the on coming train.

Anyway, just an observation...there could be something in this, or not?

Regards

Mailman

 

[ralphchadkirk]

If the train is 4 minutes away then it's 4 minutes away. You can't magic it to the station any faster to get there for the 2 minute mark you mention.


Sent from my iPhone 4 using Tapatalk

 

[SS4]

I must be missing something fundamental but if the train is four minutes away it's not going to get there in two and without a train where would disembarkation take place.

Why would you be waiting 20 minutes at Kings Cross for though

 

[tom1649]

4 minutes is nothing. On the Bank branch of the Northern Line I've seen gaps of 8 minutes before now - and this was with a 'good' service operating. Usually this causes the service to bunch up. As I watch the crowds forcing themselves onto an already busy train which we've been waiting to arrive for 8 minutes, I await the next one which is often just a minute or two behind and I easily get a seat more often than not, especially if I go right to the end of the platform.

I remember when a 'good' service was called a 'normal' service and 'customers' were still called 'passengers'. Some drivers still call us passengers which is pleasing, but the automated announcements tend to call us customers.

 

[Greenback]

Isn't this normal on most lines in central London during peak times? I don't use the Tube much myself, but on business trips in years past I recall that the Central Line platforms were always pretty rammed even with a train every 2-3 minutes.

I;m not at all sure how you could get people on and off the platform if it was half full but there was no train there. Or is it simply a case of wanting trains every 2 mins?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Yes, it is pretty much normal and at times in the peak I have had to let three or four trains go before being able to squeeze into the 5th and that was with close intervals with no delays - even off peak it isn't always possible to board the first train in either!

 

[mailman]

I must be missing something fundamental but if the train is four minutes away it's not going to get there in two and without a train where would disembarkation take place.

You are missing something. All Im saying is that there was a small window to keep the platform clear but because it was missed the platform instead was over crowded. Generally during peak trains arrive every couple of minutes at Kings Cross.

But does anyone know if TFL does modeling of crowd congestion etc on its platforms?

Why would you be waiting 20 minutes at Kings Cross for though

I couldnt get on a train because of the over crowding as I was in one of those blackspots in between doors!

BTW guys, just relax...this isnt a criticism of the underground, just an observation.

Mailman

 

[trentside]

You are missing something. All Im saying is that there was a small window to keep the platform clear but because it was missed the platform instead was over crowded. Generally during peak trains arrive every couple of minutes at Kings Cross.

So, you were saying that when the platform was relatively clear it should have been closed to stop the overcrowding? I'm not sure that would work as it would cause overcrowding in the corridors leading to the platform. I also wouldn't like to be the staff member enforcing that.

 

[SS4]

You are missing something. All Im saying is that there was a small window to keep the platform clear but because it was missed the platform instead was over crowded. Generally during peak trains arrive every couple of minutes at Kings Cross.

But does anyone know if TFL does modeling of crowd congestion etc on its platforms?


I couldnt get on a train because of the over crowding as I was in one of those blackspots in between doors!

BTW guys, just relax...this isnt a criticism of the underground, just an observation.

Mailman

My apologies for the misunderstanding

I know it's happened before where they hold people outside of the station before letting them in and I'd imagine TfL do have robust crowd control policies since it'll only take one fatality to give them a terrible slating

 

[LE Greys]

My apologies for the misunderstanding

I know it's happened before where they hold people outside of the station before letting them in and I'd imagine TfL do have robust crowd control policies since it'll only take one fatality to give them a terrible slating

Ever seen the stampedes at sales time? The best solution would probably be to let passengers off one side of the train and board from the other, but how that is to be accomplished with the current Tube escapes me. Maybe for future lines we should have the trackbed in the middle of the platform tunnels rather than at the side with one platform each side.

 

[simple simon]

Ever seen the stampedes at sales time? The best solution would probably be to let passengers off one side of the train and board from the other, but how that is to be accomplished with the current Tube escapes me. Maybe for future lines we should have the trackbed in the middle of the platform tunnels rather than at the side with one platform each side.

This is called the "Spanish Solution" after they built one metro (Barcelona, I think) with some stations having platforms on both sides of the tracks.

A mere handful of stations are like this in London, including...

* District Line eastbound at Barking (interchange with C2C on one side, LO Barking-Gospel Oak the other side);

* Central Line westbound at Stratford (Interchange with mainline on one side)

* Tower Gateway DLR (single track terminus station, one platform dedicated to arriving passengers & the other to departing passengers - this is the only station which enforces this rule)

* Canary Wharf DLR (all 3 tracks / 6 platforms)

* Golders Green northbound (altho' one platform no longer used)

* Norwood Junction northbound (altho' apparently Network Rail rules prohibit opening train doors on both sides simultaneously).

* Greenford FGW - centre track (altho' apparently Network Rail rules prohibit opening train doors on both sides simultaneously).

* Mordon / Uxbridge / Cockfosters - three track terminal stations, but nowadays the centre track only uses one of the platform 'faces'.

It would be very beneficial if Bank Northern Line was rebuilt like this, but its unlikely to happen, as LU want 'single platform' solutions.

btw, several Underground stations have third tracks which are used by terminating trains that open doors on one side to allow passengers to alight and the other side to board, this is always done in the direction of travel and as part of longer station stops whilst staff 'change ends'. Stations include Arnos Grove, Loughton, Golders Green, White City.

Simon

 

[tom1649]

(altho' apparently Network Rail rules prohibit opening train doors on both sides simultaneously).

In the days of manually operated slam doors you could ignore Railtrack/Network Rail's rules. Certainly platform 2c at Sheffield was an example where you could board a 101 from both sides as late as 2003 whether they liked it or not!

 

[jopsuk]

None of the London platforms though are actually signed for boarding one side, alighting the other are they? As I understood it, properly, "Spanish Solution" has the island platform as the exit and the outside platforms as the entrance

 

[deltic]

.

But does anyone know if TFL does modeling of crowd congestion etc on its platforms?




Mailman

Yes it does - see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5CNhxmoPrs for an example done for Bond Street remodelling

 

[tunster]

4 minutes is nothing. On the Bank branch of the Northern Line I've seen gaps of 8 minutes before now - and this was with a 'good' service operating. Usually this causes the service to bunch up. As I watch the crowds forcing themselves onto an already busy train which we've been waiting to arrive for 8 minutes, I await the next one which is often just a minute or two behind and I easily get a seat more often than not, especially if I go right to the end of the platform.

I remember when a 'good' service was called a 'normal' service and 'customers' were still called 'passengers'. Some drivers still call us passengers which is pleasing, but the automated announcements tend to call us customers.

Oh blimey, you are too right about the northern line segment at Bank. I arrived there coming from Old Street. Got onto the platform and the main issue is that you have the central line/Waterloo-city line exit on one side of the platform and circle/district line on the other. It took me 1 or 2 minutes to wiggle through and by the end of the platform, I saw passengers lock the closing doors to allow more on for at least 30 seconds. No wonder it was rammed as its just as important to keep the flow of trains going. This was at 9.15am in the morning!

My question is, why haven't they deployed the train platform barriers like on some of the jubilee line to busy lines like central and northern lines? Expensive, but would stop the door jamming behaviour and keep the flow of trains running.

 

[tsr]

I think the main problem with Central line overcrowding is the size of the trains. Like it or not, I will maintain that they are not big enough, and thus unable to keep up with demand. This means that there isn't as much circulation space for people trying to move about in order to alight, and of course you can't fit as many people in as necessary. Generally, passengers are aware of the situation and try to behave intelligently on the platforms, allowing people to exit speedily and attempting to board in an orderly fashion, but the trains may come and go with very few people able to board each one.

I use the Central Line and other lines of the LU on a regular basis, BTW.

 

[simple simon]

None of the London platforms though are actually signed for boarding one side, alighting the other are they? As I understood it, properly, "Spanish Solution" has the island platform as the exit and the outside platforms as the entrance

Tower Gateway is signed in this way, although it only has one track / two platforms.

Simon
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think the main problem with Central line overcrowding is the size of the trains. Like it or not, I will maintain that they are not big enough, and thus unable to keep up with demand. This means that there isn't as much circulation space for people trying to move about in order to alight, and of course you can't fit as many people in as necessary. Generally, passengers are aware of the situation and try to behave intelligently on the platforms, allowing people to exit speedily and attempting to board in an orderly fashion, but the trains may come and go with very few people able to board each one.

I use the Central Line and other lines of the LU on a regular basis, BTW.

East - West CrossRail will solve this overcrowding.

Perhaps.

Simon

 

[David Goddard]

Tower Gateway is signed in this way, although it only has one track / two platforms.

The transit system at Gatwick operates like this. AFAIK.

 

[tunster]

I think the main problem with Central line overcrowding is the size of the trains. Like it or not, I will maintain that they are not big enough, and thus unable to keep up with demand. This means that there isn't as much circulation space for people trying to move about in order to alight, and of course you can't fit as many people in as necessary. Generally, passengers are aware of the situation and try to behave intelligently on the platforms, allowing people to exit speedily and attempting to board in an orderly fashion, but the trains may come and go with very few people able to board each one

Unfortunately increasing train size isn't possible without gutted out more of the tunnel - I always get the feeling that northern line trains are smaller and more compact (unless it's the door size giving that impression). When travelling on the Central Line every day, its the stops between Stratford and Liverpool that make the train almost impossible to board with people joining from the District/Hammersmith lines along the way. The stand parting of the queue to let others off makes it most efficient, but sometimes the train won't stick around long enough to let the maximum amount of passengers on (more noticeable at Bank).

The only other solution is to implement trains with the walkthrough carriages (like the new metropolitan trains). Again, probably won't happen until the Bakerloo 1972 stock is replaced (although that new stock would replace Central, Waterloo & City, and Piccadilly stock afterwards).

Cross-rail - thank-god when that arrives! It certainly will relieve some of the stress on the central line (targeting the most busiest stations along that line).

 

[tsr]

The transit system at Gatwick operates like this. AFAIK.

Correct - before it was refurbished. I'm afraid I haven't needed to use it since then, so I can't say "for definite", but I imagine the same system is still in place.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Unfortunately increasing train size isn't possible without gutted out more of the tunnel - I always get the feeling that northern line trains are smaller and more compact (unless it's the door size giving that impression). When travelling on the Central Line every day, its the stops between Stratford and Liverpool that make the train almost impossible to board with people joining from the District/Hammersmith lines along the way. The stand parting of the queue to let others off makes it most efficient, but sometimes the train won't stick around long enough to let the maximum amount of passengers on (more noticeable at Bank).

The only other solution is to implement trains with the walkthrough carriages (like the new metropolitan trains). Again, probably won't happen until the Bakerloo 1972 stock is replaced (although that new stock would replace Central, Waterloo & City, and Piccadilly stock afterwards).

Cross-rail - thank-god when that arrives! It certainly will relieve some of the stress on the central line (targeting the most busiest stations along that line).

Northern Line trains are also a bit small, but I don't think that it is quite as noticeable as on the Central Line. In the case of the Central Line, I can't see a vast improvement without something drastic like re-boring the tunnel, which might be a bit short-sighted and/or unnecessary until any problem is found with the additional capacity improvements provided Crossrail.

I'd definitely like to see more trains like the new Metropolitan Line stock (is it the S8 type? I think it is). I find them to be more comfortable, very pleasant inside and they do feel spacious.

 

[Clip]

Correct - before it was refurbished. I'm afraid I haven't needed to use it since then, so I can't say "for definite", but I imagine the same system is still in place.
.

Aye was on it the other week - get on one side get out the other.

Problem with Tower Gateway is that no one takes a blind bit of notice as they have conveniently put an entrance just where people can get to work without walking round when they get off so they always get off the wrong side.