An improved bus stop?

[Yellow123]

Take this survey to share your opinions about current bus stops, and how they could be improved. Thanks for your help.
https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/J99D2KP

 

[PaulLothian]

Would have to say the survey is not easy to use if, like me, you use buses in different council areas offering very different bus stop experiences.

 

[Esker-pades]

Doesn't it depend on the area? I don't mind a stick with the word "bus" on when it's in the middle of nowhere (by that I mean a winding A-road in the Highlands of Scotland or similar). However, I would want a shelter with seats in a town/city.

 

[lxfe_mxtterz]

The one thing that annoys me is the seating at some bus stops. Admittedly, some bus stops have very good seats, but others are just uncomfortable, smooth, sloping, slabs of plastic that are designed to make you slide off the seat every few seconds. I don't ask for much in terms of seating at a bus stop, I'd just like to be able to sit properly without being slid off the seat.

 

[Pigeon]

I just want them to have a large, conspicuous, and conspicuously unique identifier of some kind mounted on the pole, which you can see easily from inside the bus; and a nice big poster, printed in UV-fast inks and mounted in a hermetically sealed enclosure filled with dry nitrogen (like a double glazing panel), big enough to show clearly:

* A fully detailed street map of the area with the bus route, including every stop (not just the major ones), marked on it.

* A photograph, for every stop, of what you can see out of the windows when the bus is approaching it, so you know where you're supposed to do something about getting off.

* Some text, for every stop, to say how much the fare is to that stop, and what you're supposed to say to the driver to ask for a ticket to that stop. Also saying whether you have to press a bell to make the bus stop there or if it just stops there as a matter of course.

As things are it seems that everything to do with buses is designed in terms of people who do the same journey all the time, and so know all these things without having to think about it. It's no use at all if you don't.

You need to know where all the stops are beforehand, from a street map, so you can work out which one is nearest to your destination. All the stops, not just the major ones.

You need to know if the bus is going to stop there anyway, or whether you have to do something to make it stop.

You need to know what you can see out of the window approaching the stops, so you know when the bus is nearly there, and isn't stopping at some other stop or just because of traffic.

You need the stop itself to be clearly visible, and identifiable, from inside the bus, for the same reason. A metal flag the size of your hand, attached to a lamp post, that you can't read unless you're standing next to it and can't even see at all from inside the bus, is no use at all.

You need to know what the stop is called so you can ask the driver for a ticket to it.

All this stuff is provided with trains: nearly all maps show stations; request stops are rare but clearly identified when they do exist; every station has a unique name; the names are on big signs which you can see out of the window before you come to a halt. With buses you don't get any of it (except possibly a crappy incomplete map which is hard to discover even exists). So how the glet and sprine are you supposed to know what to do? Consequently, I never use buses.

 

[Indigo Soup]

Doesn't it depend on the area? I don't mind a stick with the word "bus" on when it's in the middle of nowhere (by that I mean a winding A-road in the Highlands of Scotland or similar). However, I would want a shelter with seats in a town/city.

I'd argue for the other way around - if I'm waiting for the twice-a-day bus from a field of sheep to the local post office, I'm liable to show up in plenty of time and not want to be stuck standing in drizzle for half an hour. If there's one every six minutes and there are three pubs, four fast food outlets and a supermarket within fifty yards of the bus stop then a sign on a stick is probably quite adequate.

Information is key, as @Pigeon says - the main bus company in my city is notorious for the drivers barking 'right money only' at passengers, without ever saying how much 'right money' is.

 

[Esker-pades]

I'd argue for the other way around - if I'm waiting for the twice-a-day bus from a field of sheep to the local post office, I'm liable to show up in plenty of time and not want to be stuck standing in drizzle for half an hour. If there's one every six minutes and there are three pubs, four fast food outlets and a supermarket within fifty yards of the bus stop then a sign on a stick is probably quite adequate.

Information is key, as @Pigeon says - the main bus company in my city is notorious for the drivers barking 'right money only' at passengers, without ever saying how much 'right money' is.

I'm thinking of slowly but surely. A lot of rural bus stops I've been too don't even have a sign. One just has to stand by the road and hope that you're in the right place. Eventually, a shelter would be nice, but then one comes to the problems with maintenance of very rural stops given the budget constraints.

 

[Indigo Soup]

I'm thinking of slowly but surely. A lot of rural bus stops I've been too don't even have a sign. One just has to stand by the road and hope that you're in the right place. Eventually, a shelter would be nice, but then one comes to the problems with maintenance of very rural stops given the budget constraints.

In fairness, on most rural bus routes the stops are more like general suggestions - the drivers are quite happy to stop in any reasonable location.

 

[dcbwhaley]

I just want them to have a large, conspicuous, and conspicuously unique identifier of some kind mounted on the pole, which you can see easily from inside the bus; and a nice big poster, printed in UV-fast inks and mounted in a hermetically sealed enclosure filled with dry nitrogen (like a double glazing panel), big enough to show clearly:

* A fully detailed street map of the area with the bus route, including every stop (not just the major ones), marked on it.

* A photograph, for every stop, of what you can see out of the windows when the bus is approaching it, so you know where you're supposed to do something about getting off.

* Some text, for every stop, to say how much the fare is to that stop, and what you're supposed to say to the driver to ask for a ticket to that stop. Also saying whether you have to press a bell to make the bus stop there or if it just stops there as a matter of course.

As things are it seems that everything to do with buses is designed in terms of people who do the same journey all the time, and so know all these things without having to think about it. It's no use at all if you don't.

You need to know where all the stops are beforehand, from a street map, so you can work out which one is nearest to your destination. All the stops, not just the major ones.

You need to know if the bus is going to stop there anyway, or whether you have to do something to make it stop.

You need to know what you can see out of the window approaching the stops, so you know when the bus is nearly there, and isn't stopping at some other stop or just because of traffic.

You need the stop itself to be clearly visible, and identifiable, from inside the bus, for the same reason. A metal flag the size of your hand, attached to a lamp post, that you can't read unless you're standing next to it and can't even see at all from inside the bus, is no use at all.

You need to know what the stop is called so you can ask the driver for a ticket to it.

All this stuff is provided with trains: nearly all maps show stations; request stops are rare but clearly identified when they do exist; every station has a unique name; the names are on big signs which you can see out of the window before you come to a halt. With buses you don't get any of it (except possibly a crappy incomplete map which is hard to discover even exists). So how the glet and sprine are you supposed to know what to do? Consequently, I never use buses.

Most bus journeys are made by people who travel the route regularly so providing a vast infra-structure for the few others would not be economical. As for finding your nearest stop there are online resources such as https://bustimes.org/ which list virtually every stop in the country and what buses use them.

You always ring the bell if you want to stop the bus from inside, or stick your arm out if you are at the stop. No exceptions: even if the bus was going to stop anyway no one will mind you ringing the bell. Bus stops are usually a metal plate at least a foot square with the name on them. And they are invariably at right angles to direction of travel so can be read from the moving vehicle; unlike the parallel name boards at railway stations which cannot be read from the passing train

On a strange route speak to the driver. Tell him where you are going and ask him to let you know when you are there. Most of them, at least on country routes, are very helpful and will often stop between official stops if it safe to do so.

And since you never travel by bus it ill behoves you to criticise the system. For an occasional user travelling by train can be very intimidating, as many of the stories on this board illustrate, but that is not a reason to dismiss the entire system

 

[Esker-pades]

In fairness, on most rural bus routes the stops are more like general suggestions - the drivers are quite happy to stop in any reasonable location.

I'm sure that is the case. Anxiety just gets the better of me. If I'm confused about a location I always phone up the bus company and ask for an exact location of the bus stop. They have always been helpful.

(A recent journey saw me travel into Fort William from "Loch Lochy Youth Hostel". The lady on the other end gave me a description of "about 100 metres north of the youth hostel where there should be a pull in and a PO box". When I got there a few days later, I knew exactly where she meant and caught the bus.)

 

[Pigeon]

Most bus journeys are made by people who travel the route regularly

Exactly. It is precisely the attitude that "...and no-one else matters" that I am criticising.

so providing a vast infra-structure for the few others would not be economical.

I'm not asking for a "vast infrastructure", I'm asking for some posters. Sheets of paper with stuff printed on them, displayed for people to read.

Yes, I am asking for them to be displayed with effective weather protection, so they don't turn into terminally-faded damp-rotted illegible useless rags like the timetables you occasionally see attached to bus stops always are... in other words, I'm just asking for it to be done properly. That doesn't make it a "vast infrastructure". I even mentioned everyday items which embody the characteristics such protection would involve, to show that it doesn't involve anything exotic or difficult.

Bus stops are usually a metal plate at least a foot square

"Apparent size of a CD case" would be a description more representative of their actual appearance.

with the name on them.

Simply not true. It can't be, because no "name" exists. To be clear, by "name" I mean some globally unique identifier with a one-to-one mapping to the specific individual stop. Not the name of the bus company, which they do show, but which doesn't help anyone.

And they are invariably at right angles to direction of travel so can be read from the moving vehicle

The primary clause is true but the dependent clause is not. "Foot square" or "CD case", it doesn't matter, they're still too small to read unless you're standing next to them.

Often they can't even be seen from the moving vehicle. To start with, unless you manage to get a seat at the front you don't stand a chance. Then there are often lamp posts or other signs or trees or lorries or standing passengers in the bus itself in the way. Even if not, there's still the problem of picking out this small and inconspicuous sign from the huge amount of visual clutter in the average urban scene in the couple of seconds available.

unlike the parallel name boards at railway stations which cannot be read from the passing train

Nonsense. Station name boards are much larger and much more conspicuous, with great big writing on, and very easy to read in plenty of time from a train which is slowing down about to come to a halt at the platform. They're usually quite legible even whizzing past at 125mph.

And since you never travel by bus it ill behoves you to criticise the system.

Also nonsense. It's entirely valid for me to criticise the system for the aspects which are so effective a deterrent to using it.

 

[dcbwhaley]

Exactly. It is precisely the attitude that "...and no-one else matters" that I am criticising.



I'm not asking for a "vast infrastructure", I'm asking for some posters. Sheets of paper with stuff printed on them, displayed for people to read.

There are a vast number of bus stops. several orders of magnitudes more than there are railway stations. And despite that small number therer a

Yes, I am asking for them to be displayed with effective weather protection, so they don't turn into terminally-faded damp-rotted illegible useless rags like the timetables you occasionally see attached to bus stops always are... in other words, I'm just asking for it to be done properly. That doesn't make it a "vast infrastructure". I even mentioned everyday items which embody the characteristics such protection would involve, to show that it doesn't involve anything exotic or difficult.



"Apparent size of a CD case" would be a description more representative of their actual appearance.



Simply not true. It can't be, because no "name" exists. To be clear, by "name" I mean some globally unique identifier with a one-to-one mapping to the specific individual stop. Not the name of the bus company, which they do show, but which doesn't help anyone.



The primary clause is true but the dependent clause is not. "Foot square" or "CD case", it doesn't matter, they're still too small to read unless you're standing next to them.

Often they can't even be seen from the moving vehicle. To start with, unless you manage to get a seat at the front you don't stand a chance. Then there are often lamp posts or other signs or trees or lorries or standing passengers in the bus itself in the way. Even if not, there's still the problem of picking out this small and inconspicuous sign from the huge amount of visual clutter in the average urban scene in the couple of seconds available.



Nonsense. Station name boards are much larger and much more conspicuous, with great big writing on, and very easy to read in plenty of time from a train which is slowing down about to come to a halt at the platform. They're usually quite legible even whizzing past at 125mph.



Also nonsense. It's entirely valid for me to criticise the system for the aspects which are so effective a deterrent to using it.

Exactly. It is precisely the attitude that "...and no-one else matters" that I am criticising.



I'm not asking for a "vast infrastructure", I'm asking for some posters. Sheets of paper with stuff printed on them, displayed for people to read.

Yes, I am asking for them to be displayed with effective weather protection, so they don't turn into terminally-faded damp-rotted illegible useless rags like the timetables you occasionally see attached to bus stops always are... in other words, I'm just asking for it to be done properly. That doesn't make it a "vast infrastructure". I even mentioned everyday items which embody the characteristics such protection would involve, to show that it doesn't involve anything exotic or difficult.



"Apparent size of a CD case" would be a description more representative of their actual appearance.



Simply not true. It can't be, because no "name" exists. To be clear, by "name" I mean some globally unique identifier with a one-to-one mapping to the specific individual stop. Not the name of the bus company, which they do show, but which doesn't help anyone.



The primary clause is true but the dependent clause is not. "Foot square" or "CD case", it doesn't matter, they're still too small to read unless you're standing next to them.

Often they can't even be seen from the moving vehicle. To start with, unless you manage to get a seat at the front you don't stand a chance. Then there are often lamp posts or other signs or trees or lorries or standing passengers in the bus itself in the way. Even if not, there's still the problem of picking out this small and inconspicuous sign from the huge amount of visual clutter in the average urban scene in the couple of seconds available.



Nonsense. Station name boards are much larger and much more conspicuous, with great big writing on, and very easy to read in plenty of time from a train which is slowing down about to come to a halt at the platform. They're usually quite legible even whizzing past at 125mph.



Also nonsense. It's entirely valid for me to criticise the system for the aspects which are so effective a deterrent to using it.

So why is that I can travel the country by bus in confidence yet have difficulty copying with the railway system? The penalty fare system alone is enough to deter all but the most ardent railway enthusiast from travelling by rail unless necessity forces them to do so. Not to mention the confusion marketing which the pricing and ticketing structure epitomises.

 

[PeterC]

It is easy to get into a "yes it is" - "no it isn't" arguement when there are such differences in provision across the country.

I often use buses in Buckinghamshire, Oxford and London and certainly can't complain about stop visibility in any of those areas. TfL stops all show names, not always the ones that locals actually use. Traveline shows names for all stops in Bucks which, on our local route, match those shown on the driver's ticket machine.

Our local buses don't have next stop displays but the ones that I use in London and Oxford both do which means that I don't need a view of the road ahead to know when to ring the bell.

The minimum that I want from a stop is to:
1. Know which services stop there
2. Have the times of all services from that stop
3. Have a QR code displayed linking to on line tracking so that I know when the next bus is due

I have seen plenty of stops to complain about over the years. In the 1960s I recall stops in Wales with no flag but with a noticeboard showing an interesting and extensive range of timetables for the entire operating area but with no hint about which of the seven or eight routes actuall stopped there. Or the Crossville flags which were as wide as the pole and had the words "Bus Stop" written vertically.

 

[Indigo Soup]

So why is that I can travel the country by bus in confidence yet have difficulty copying with the railway system? The penalty fare system alone is enough to deter all but the most ardent railway enthusiast from travelling by rail unless necessity forces them to do so. Not to mention the confusion marketing which the pricing and ticketing structure epitomises.

It's almost as though there are problems with both buses and railways, and that the two different modes have different problems....

 

[northwichcat]

Doesn't it depend on the area? I don't mind a stick with the word "bus" on when it's in the middle of nowhere (by that I mean a winding A-road in the Highlands of Scotland or similar). However, I would want a shelter with seats in a town/city.

Surely there's a greater need for a shelter at a stop with an infrequent service than at a stop with a bus every 5 minutes. Also at a popular stop in a city at a busy time it's likely not all passengers will fit under the shelter.

 

[alxndr]

With buses you don't get any of it (except possibly a crappy incomplete map which is hard to discover even exists). So how the glet and sprine are you supposed to know what to do? Consequently, I never use buses.

I wish this were the case! With all the regional variations I never use busses because I'm not quite sure how they're going to work in that particular area (including what the fare is, beyond knowing that I have to have the correct change for it!) Even when I have time to do prior research I generally find their websites are often lacking too and invariably decide to either not bother or walk.

 

[northwichcat]

I wish this were the case! With all the regional variations I never use busses because I'm not quite sure how they're going to work in that particular area (including what the fare is, beyond knowing that I have to have the correct change for it!) Even when I have time to do prior research I generally find their websites are often lacking too and invariably decide to either not bother or walk.

I find most operators advertise the prices of their day and week tickets but other fares are a secret unless there's competition on the route, in which case they might promote their fares.

 

[Esker-pades]

Surely there's a greater need for a shelter at a stop with an infrequent service than at a stop with a bus every 5 minutes. Also at a popular stop in a city at a busy time it's likely not all passengers will fit under the shelter.

I've already answered that question.

I'm thinking of slowly but surely. A lot of rural bus stops I've been too don't even have a sign. One just has to stand by the road and hope that you're in the right place. Eventually, a shelter would be nice, but then one comes to the problems with maintenance of very rural stops given the budget constraints.

 

[Yellow123]

Thank you everyone for your ideas and taking the survey. I will incorporate them when designing a new one.

 

[A Challenge]

I'm going to be referring mainly to the Arriva Kent and Surrey MAX 34/MAX 35 (Guildford - Mayford/Kingfield Green - Woking - Knaphill - Lightwater - Bagshot - Camberley) as that is one of the routes I get most often, but can apply elsewhere. Firstly, coming out of Guildford (though it works both ways) the first stop is called Queens Road. Nothing wrong there, you may think, until you get to Knaphill and you have Queenswood Road. Still not too much of a problem, as it different and some distance, but two stops later you get to another stop called Queen's Road - which is very close to Queenswood Road and the same name as the the earlier one in Guildford! And this isn't all - you still have another Queens Road in Bisley. Also when I got the bus a few years ago to Lightwater, I asked for a ticket to 'Lightwater War Memorial' and the driver had no clue where I meant - it's the main stop in Lightwater (he understood Lightwater on its own).

When there is a bus stop with numbers of the routes operating from it can it have all the numbers, and them correct, especially if it is a major stop. Take Knaphill Shops, the sign says 28, 34, 35, 39, 48, and 91. The 39 is actually the 39A (the 39B/39C don't serve Knaphill Shops) and it is missing the 417. Take another one, the 690 which doesn't run through the village, and that isn't anywhere either, even outside the schools it is supposed to serve! The other things I've seen on the 690 (I've only been on it about 5 times as well) deserve their own thread, which I probably won't give it!)

Also, can stops be named something sensible - like Town Quay in Woking - a row of mooring posts on the Canal (pictured here before the stop was put in (only two years after it made it onto Google maps!). I propose Civic Offices, much more appropriate!

 

[randyrippley]

best improvement would be better road surfaces
here in Lancaster/Morecambe the intensive service (on some stretches it was hitting 30 per hour, now reduced) means the road structure rapidly becomes rutted and potholed at worst, covered in oil and tyre dust at best making every bus stop a hazard.
The oil and dust combined with constant braking and acceleration destroys the road

 

[6Gman]

I wish this were the case! With all the regional variations I never use busses because I'm not quite sure how they're going to work in that particular area (including what the fare is, beyond knowing that I have to have the correct change for it!) Even when I have time to do prior research I generally find their websites are often lacking too and invariably decide to either not bother or walk.

Aren't exact fare operators very much the minority?

My general experience is:

1. Board the bus.
2. Say where I'm going.
3. Listen to what the fare is.
4. Pay (correct money if I can; wait for change if I can't).
5. Collect ticket.
6. Sit down.

 

[alxndr]

Aren't exact fare operators very much the minority?

My general experience is:

1. Board the bus.
2. Say where I'm going.
3. Listen to what the fare is.
4. Pay (correct money if I can; wait for change if I can't).
5. Collect ticket.
6. Sit down.

Oops, I meant to specify that I was referring to my current local busses with that exact fare tangent. I think they've now gone to contactless, which is a better system.

It's still off putting being aware that if I was to arrive in a strange place and try to get a bus it might just be exact fare only.