An idea: New stations Leicester - Melton Mowbray

[70014IronDuke]

Maybe it's passed me by, but I find it curious that I've never seen any ideas, even vaguley mooted ones, for new stations and/or reopenings on the Leicester - Melton Mowbray route.

Even more strange considering the success, albeit only in small increments over time, of the reopenings between Loughborough and Leicester.

Syston, for instance, hit 211,000 passengers at the last annual count from what is only an hourly service - and nothing on Sundays either. (I imagine the vast majority of those are just into Leicester, as all trains terminate there AFAIK).

Looking at the map, the most obvious candidate for a new station would appear to be East Groscote (don't think it's ever had one in the past?), somewhere to the south-west of the village.

Heading east you then have Wreasby, Brooksby and Frisby - all of which had stations up until the 60s. Not sure if some or all of these have sufficient populations to warrant a reopening?

But then you have the 4-mile section north of Leicester to Syston, virtually all built up - makes one wonder if a station on the slow line(s) at Thurmaston wouldn't pull in a fair few customers quite quickly.

Would there be space/road access available from Troon Way? Or, more central, near Humberstone Lane?

Of course, even opening one of these suggestions begs the question: what should work it? XC probably would not want to insert even one more stop into the Stansted - Brum trains (the omit Syston as it is). But if the Leicester-Brum stoppers were extended to Melton, it would enable all these stations to benefit from an hourly service (and give Syston and Melton 2 TPH) across Leicester.

An alternative, of course, would be to integrate any such service into the much talked of Coalville line reopening - even with a station to allow access via a reversal in Knighton.

And yes, this would involve conflicting movements, naturally. No getting round that without a massive investment in tunneling, which is not going to happen.

Of course, Coalville seems to be a re-opening too far for Leicester CC - but the tracks to the north [of Leicester station] are extant, so I'm just surprised I've never heard of any proposals to develop a better suburban network for at least this area of Leicester City and communities to the north-west.

Thoughts?

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Leicester (similar to Bristol) is one of those cities where the main station is a little way out of the centre and a rail service would find it hard to compete with a bus service taking people right to the heart of the shopping and business areas.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

East Goscote is a little down-at-heel - it had a BNP councillor at one point - and I'd be surprised if a station were commercially viable. Rearsby and neighbouring Thrussington are quite affluent, so Rearsby might have commuter potential if you put a car park between the railway and Wreake Drive, though it's in the Wreake floodplain (and the Wreake can be very flashy) which could rule that out.

Between Oakham and Stamford, Ketton arguably has a case for reopening as well. But to make any of these work you'd need to extend the Birmingham-Leicester locals to Peterborough: the last thing the Stansted trains need is extra stops.

(I grew up on Station Road in Rearsby and later in Oakham!)

 

[HowardGWR]

Leicester (similar to Bristol) is one of those cities where the main station is a little way out of the centre and a rail service would find it hard to compete with a bus service taking people right to the heart of the shopping and business areas.

That's an excellent point and it applies to Nottingham, Derby, as well as a few other large cities one can mention. In Bristol, offices have been 'moved' to the station, not the shopping centre though. Perhaps the secret is fast frequent trams from the station? At Leicester's size and layout, it seems to fall between two stools.

 

[Spankthemonkey]

Maybe it's passed me by, but I find it curious that I've never seen any ideas, even vaguley mooted ones, for new stations and/or reopenings on the Leicester - Melton Mowbray route.

Even more strange considering the success, albeit only in small increments over time, of the reopenings between Loughborough and Leicester.

Syston, for instance, hit 211,000 passengers at the last annual count from what is only an hourly service - and nothing on Sundays either. (I imagine the vast majority of those are just into Leicester, as all trains terminate there AFAIK).

Looking at the map, the most obvious candidate for a new station would appear to be East Groscote (don't think it's ever had one in the past?), somewhere to the south-west of the village.

Heading east you then have Wreasby, Brooksby and Frisby - all of which had stations up until the 60s. Not sure if some or all of these have sufficient populations to warrant a reopening?

But then you have the 4-mile section north of Leicester to Syston, virtually all built up - makes one wonder if a station on the slow line(s) at Thurmaston wouldn't pull in a fair few customers quite quickly.

Would there be space/road access available from Troon Way? Or, more central, near Humberstone Lane?

Of course, even opening one of these suggestions begs the question: what should work it? XC probably would not want to insert even one more stop into the Stansted - Brum trains (the omit Syston as it is). But if the Leicester-Brum stoppers were extended to Melton, it would enable all these stations to benefit from an hourly service (and give Syston and Melton 2 TPH) across Leicester.

An alternative, of course, would be to integrate any such service into the much talked of Coalville line reopening - even with a station to allow access via a reversal in Knighton.

And yes, this would involve conflicting movements, naturally. No getting round that without a massive investment in tunneling, which is not going to happen.

Of course, Coalville seems to be a re-opening too far for Leicester CC - but the tracks to the north [of Leicester station] are extant, so I'm just surprised I've never heard of any proposals to develop a better suburban network for at least this area of Leicester City and communities to the north-west.

Thoughts?

The Thurmaston idea has mileage as a possible parkway style station in the mold of Cambridge North where, aswell as having a park and ride function there is actually local population and business there too.

The white elephant of east mids parkway looms large though.

Melton could use 2 tph though, if trains were reversing there it would probably need a bay platform due to the amount of freight that goes through there.

Coalville and Ashby. Huge potential. If the existing infrastructure and poulations were in the south east or even a development area it would have been open years ago. A peterborough to Derby via a reinstated north curve at knighton would kill many birds with one stone.

 

[Roast Veg]

Syston, for instance, hit 211,000 passengers at the last annual count from what is only an hourly service - and nothing on Sundays either. (I imagine the vast majority of those are just into Leicester, as all trains terminate there AFAIK).

I can confirm there are no EMT slow services to anywhere south of Leicester on the MML. What I would suggest in addition to this proposal is to extend the service round to Corby, with the second platform there reinstated. Then I'd have the service operate as an extension of the Ivanhoe service, turning at Leicester in both directions.

With regards to the station being "out of town", I'd argue that Leicester's is plenty central enough.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Leicester (similar to Bristol) is one of those cities where the main station is a little way out of the centre and a rail service would find it hard to compete with a bus service taking people right to the heart of the shopping and business areas.

Well, I accept that this is "a bit true" - but then how do you explain the success of the Ivanhoe Line stations? (Or perhaps you wouldn't call it a success? Serious question.)

Something like 440,000 passengers at the three stations last year, and with an Ok-ish hourly, but no Sunday service.
OK, some will be going on from Leicester to MML stations, Nuneaton and Brum, some to Loughborough and a few to Nottingham/Newark/Lincoln.

But I'd guess that of the 220,000 leaving those three stops, what, 120-140,000 would be terminating at Leicester?

 

[70014IronDuke]

East Goscote is a little down-at-heel - it had a BNP councillor at one point - and I'd be surprised if a station were commercially viable. ...

Surely even BNP voters use trains?

I had wondered if, as there was no station in the past, EG had expanded in the past 20-30 years? Could a new station get a regeneration subsidy?

Between Oakham and Stamford, Ketton arguably has a case for reopening as well. But to make any of these work you'd need to extend the Birmingham-Leicester locals to Peterborough: the last thing the Stansted trains need is extra stops.

(I grew up on Station Road in Rearsby and later in Oakham!)

Yeah, I had wondered about potential beyond Melton eg Manton, but felt that it would be better to leave that for "phase 2" as Leicester - Melton would be much more do-able and the business case that much stronger.

 

[The Planner]

Lots of absolute block signalling between Syston and Peterborough, you are going to have to spend a bit of cash even if you wanted improved services to Melton.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Well, I accept that this is "a bit true" - but then how do you explain the success of the Ivanhoe Line stations? (Or perhaps you wouldn't call it a success? Serious question.)

Something like 440,000 passengers at the three stations last year, and with an Ok-ish hourly, but no Sunday service.
OK, some will be going on from Leicester to MML stations, Nuneaton and Brum, some to Loughborough and a few to Nottingham/Newark/Lincoln.

But I'd guess that of the 220,000 leaving those three stops, what, 120-140,000 would be terminating at Leicester?

My own feeling is that the main station being slightly away from the town centre will hurt passenger numbers, but can still be attractive enough for a viable service. People who will still use local commuter services include people who:

• Are making connections to trains elsewhere.
• Work sufficiently near the main station that it's still convenient for them
• Are happy to trade a more comfortable/faster public transport bit of the journey for a 10-15 minute walk from the station, or who even prefer doing that because of the health benefits: Perhaps they use the walk as their daily exercise.

I would guess that, if the smaller stops served by the commuter trains are in sufficiently well populated areas, then these groups of people will add up to enough to make services a success, even though it isn't as big a success as would have happened with a more centrally sited main station.

In the case of the Ivanhoe line, I imagine there's an extra contributing factor, that Leicester isn't the only destination: People can commute northwards to Nottingham (or perhaps Loughborough, although if I recall correctly, that's an even less conveniently sited station).

 

[HowardGWR]

What is the 'ambience' of walking from Leicester station to employment /shopping areas?

If poor, that could be the secret. Commuters to Bristol TM, who slip out the side entrance, now have possible riverside or pedestrianised walks to the central area. The one snag, the dreadful huge roundabout, is about to be emasculated and better cycling and walking routes established.

What's it like at Leicester?

 

[birchesgreen]

I've only been a couple of times but didn't think it was that bad. The main road could be off putting i guess?

 

[edwin_m]

I think Leicester is more like Nottingham in that it feels a much longer distance than it is, due to the unfriendly environment and especially big roads to cross. The Broadmarsh re-development in Nottingham should help there but I'm not sure anything similar is planned in Leicester. Even Bristol isn't too bad, as long as you don't try to follow the bus route if going to the Centre!

 

[Dr Hoo]

I think Leicester is more like Nottingham in that it feels a much longer distance than it is, due to the unfriendly environment and especially big roads to cross. The Broadmarsh re-development in Nottingham should help there but I'm not sure anything similar is planned in Leicester. Even Bristol isn't too bad, as long as you don't try to follow the bus route if going to the Centre!

Agree with this. Granby Street (which is the principal thoroughfare en route between Leicester station and the city centre) just gets shabbier as the years pass. Many of the shops are currently derelict and many passers by are clearly in need and poverty, which can be intimidating for some.

Although some traffic generators, e.g. parts of the university, are close to the station it very much feels as though it is 'not quite there'. The newest shops, in the High Cross Centre are on the opposite side of the city centre, with excellent parking adjacent and also closer to most bus routes.

Leicester is one of those places that needs a modern tram system to help get the best out of the national rail network.

 

[Roast Veg]

Granby Street is a mess that's for sure. As you turn right out of the station, you are greeted with a very busy A-road crossing, then an enormous sign saying "BLUNTS HOES" (formerly Blunts Shoes), followed by a trek past many of the cheap independent shops which can be dissuasive to outsiders. Then to top it off the main shopping promenade, which should have all the trappings of any other, is instead covered with empty plots right the way up to the clock tower.

The fact is, however, that Leicester city centre is remarkably tiny as it is bounded by a small inner ring road, and the station is not badly sited to reach any of it.

 

[HowardGWR]

Thanks for replies. Then the problem in Leicester is the usual layover from the car dependent 60s and you always get down at heel streets from the station in these circumstances, that are just traffic corridors. I notice that the parallel Charles St has more bus stops there and assume they go that way. I also noticed a dreadful lozenge shaped multi storey car park at Lee St (a circus) that must rank as one of the most ugly buildings in the UK, although there is plenty of competition for that. The bus stops outside the station looked convenient and indeed I remember getting a service to the racecourse from there. I presume most of the buses go to the shopping area, so perhaps the OP's proposed rural commuters and shoppers could be best served with a combined ticket. I can't see many suburban travelers from the Thurmaston area doing that though, if they already have bus services that go direct to the centre, without a change.

 

[70014IronDuke]

... so perhaps the OP's proposed rural commuters and shoppers could be best served with a combined ticket. I can't see many suburban travelers from the Thurmaston area doing that though, if they already have bus services that go direct to the centre, without a change.

re rural commuters and shoppers: It's years since I've been along the line - behind Cl 45s on Sunday diversions (!) - so I don't know the current state of communities along the line, and I'm more asking the question rather than saying "this is a must-do re-opening, with huge pent up demand" IYSWIM.

Thurmaston, however, I suggest is a different kettle of railway customer potential. Of course, given the shortish distance, its prime market would not be commuters into Leicester London Rd - but rather a station here would be adding to the whole connectivity map of the area. It could open with services as they are offering a quick way to Leicester for onward travel to London, Nuneaton, Brum, etc (though not the best case to have a mere 1 TPH on the Ivanhoe line, it would still be well used, I suggest). IT would also help connectivity with current Ivanhoe line stations, Loughborough and Nottingham, naturally.

But where it would really thrive (IMO) is if the Birmingham stoppers were extended - either as a terminal station, which could perhaps be part one of a phased development - but ideally as part of a joined up Melton - Birmingham stopping service. OR, as suggested earlier, as part of a re-opened Coalville line service - only I fear that is a forlorn wish.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Well, I accept that this is "a bit true" - but then how do you explain the success of the Ivanhoe Line stations? (Or perhaps you wouldn't call it a success? Serious question.)

Something like 440,000 passengers at the three stations last year, and with an Ok-ish hourly, but no Sunday service.
OK, some will be going on from Leicester to MML stations, Nuneaton and Brum, some to Loughborough and a few to Nottingham/Newark/Lincoln.

But I'd guess that of the 220,000 leaving those three stops, what, 120-140,000 would be terminating at Leicester?

Those stations are a bit further out from the city making the journey a little quicker than the bus overall but the inner suburban stations you suggest would have a slower overall journey time to the centre than competing bus services.

 

[whhistle]

What is the 'ambience' of walking from Leicester station to employment /shopping areas?

What's it like at Leicester?

It's a long street that leads to the heart of the city - about a mile, maybe just over.
Formed of restaurants, banks, charity shops... like a town centre street.

However, the problem was developing the St Peter's Square area. If the Council had encouraged development down the main street connecting the station to the city, it would have opened a huge amount of opportunity. Instead, it's all happened over the other side of the town.

However, the station is ideally placed for the Rugby ground and less so the Football ground.

The important factor is to look at what the line would be used for.
If commuting, why not have a morning/evening only service - perhaps add a few odd services throughout the day to test for leisure passengers.

However it all boils down to the chicken and the egg scenario.
They won't put the trains on because there won't be the passengers. There aren't any passengers because there aren't any trains.
But nobody looks at whether the Ivanhoe Line is profitable or not. If it is, makes sense to look at similar areas. But then perhaps the success of the line is that it doesn't have a huge amount of stops.

 

[didcotdean]

The whole of Granby Street is a conservation area. For example the aforementioned Blunts (S)hoes occupies a Grade II listed art deco building built in the early 1930s when Charles Street was widened out. There are another 7 Grade II or II* buildings in Granby Street. The trick is to look up at least one storey from the modern shop fronts etc to see why.

The centre of Leicester historically was High Street / Highcross, and that arguably is where it is again (which would have been more convenient to Leicester Central!). However throughout the 19th and much of the 20th Granby Street was as much part of the heart as leading to it. The present road was laid out in the 1810s (although subsequently widened) along the turnpike route that had already developed just to the east of the old town walls the last remnants of which were progressively removed through the 18th century. Prior to the railway it had several coaching inns along it, so was already well-developed, effectively as the first inner bypass.

As to stations, there used to be one at Humberstone Lane but it had very few trains that stopped at it, from the times these may have been aimed at what would now be called commuters. South there was the halt at Welford Road for the cattle market.

 

[Clip]

Plus when speaking about Leicester stations location it doesn't just serve the town and shoppers/rugby now but also the rather large campuses up the top of London Road.

 

[Welshman]

As to stations, there used to be one at Humberstone Lane but it had very few trains that stopped at it, from the times these may have been aimed at what would now be called commuters. South there was the halt at Welford Road for the cattle market.

What about the old Leicester Central?
Was it an easier walk from there into the centre cf. that from the Midland station?

 

[didcotdean]

What about the old Leicester Central?
Was it an easier walk from there into the centre cf. that from the Midland station?

I mentioned in passing above that Leicester Central would be somewhat closer to the current 'hive of action' than London Road. It would be stranded on the 'wrong' side of the inner ring road as built but so is London Road.

Incidentally the original plans for the inner ring would have sent it south of London Road station which would have isolated it less from the centre, but would have resulted in a much greater damage to the Regency area around New Walk etc.

Of course if the suspended monorail had actually been built ...

 

[70014IronDuke]

...
As to stations, there used to be one at Humberstone Lane but it had very few trains that stopped at it, from the times these may have been aimed at what would now be called commuters.....

It was Humberstone ROAD wasn't it? AIR, it was pretty close to Leicester London Rd, no more than 1 mile, and was in what was then at least partially an industrial area - foundries and stuff. I can't swear to it, but I think it only had platforms on the goods lines. I suspect that it somehow survived the closure of the Ivanhoe line stations in 1962, and after that was probably served by Birmingham-Cambridge and Birmingham-Nowich trains at peak hours. Or perhaps there was still the odd Leicester - Nottigham local before closure.

I wouldn't think a re-opened station on that site would be of much use today.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Those stations are a bit further out from the city making the journey a little quicker than the bus overall but the inner suburban stations you suggest would have a slower overall journey time to the centre than competing bus services.

I am primarily proposing a station at Thurmaston. As stated, I don't think it would be all that useful for commuting into Leicester (London Rd) per se for exactly the point you make - although surely some would use it. But as stated upthread, it's use would be in general connectivity to other stations along the line(s) - ie Ivanhoe, Birmingham/Nuneaton and, if developed, a stopping service to Melton Mowbray.

It would add, what, 2 - 2.5 minutes to the running time for trains on the Ivanhoe line, and 5 minutes more each way for Birmingham stoppers, if extended to terminate there.

Perhaps someone in here would know if these additions would be critical to the diagramming of stock to those services or not.

 

[didcotdean]

It was Humberstone ROAD wasn't it? AIR, it was pretty close to Leicester London Rd, no more than 1 mile, and was in what was then at least partially an industrial area - foundries and stuff. I can't swear to it, but I think it only had platforms on the goods lines.

Indeed so (not sure why I wrote Lane) - Leicester Wharf was adjacent to the site. There was a tram route to the centre right outside, which started further up the road at the GNR Humberstone Station, which would have served the local transport requirements.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Indeed so (not sure why I wrote Lane) - Leicester Wharf was adjacent to the site. There was a tram route to the centre right outside, which started further up the road at the GNR Humberstone Station, which would have served the local transport requirements.

Perhaps because I wrote Humberstone Lane as a possible site for a new Thurmaston station - approx 2 miles north.

Anyway, I've been reliably informed that the local branch of Rail Future do have Thurmaston on their 'shopping list' of future stations.

 

[jamesontheroad]

I'm a bit late to this thread, so here are a few disconnected thoughts.

Leicester is now a very suburban city. It has a relatively small (by area) centre, and then a number of very clearly defined suburban districts that radiate out of the city along the main thoroughfares. There are lots of spacious fifties suburbs and more recent des-res developments. It is also a very car-oriented city. The post-war redevelopments and the inner ring road have made it very easy to drive, and the waves of immigration in the twentieth century have each delivered tight knit and quite well defined socio-ethnic-economic communities. Many of these communities are - over time - becoming affluent, and therefore car ownership is an important measure of wealth and success.

(In other words, it's a bit of a white-Audi city... I'm amazed by the number of young people driving £££ showy and expensive motors )

The station on London Road is a short (10-15 minute) walk from the city centre, 10 minutes walk to Leicester University and 20 minutes to De Montfort University (which is actually closer to the city centre). Granby Street is the main drag from the station to the city centre, and it is very worn down, but this is perfectly common in most regional British cities. It's hard to attract premium commercial and retail tenants to property on these streets.

A big success has been the closure of the old pedestrian underpass between the station and Granby Street. This passed under the four lane inner ring road, and has been replaced with a very wide and well used mixed pedestrian and cycle crossing. Cycling is permitted on all pedestrian streets in Leicester except (bizarrely) New Walk and this includes the pavement between the station and this crossing.

Could additional stations between Leicester and Melton work? Maybe, but there is no vision or money for the stations, which seem to be perilously expensive and architecturally unimaginative whenever Network Rail commissions them.

Regarding services to stop at them (for those that don't know) XC serve BHM-LEI twice hourly, one stopper and one express that arrives in LEI about 5 minutes after the stopper and which continues to Peterborough, Ely, Cambridge and Stansted.

It has been proposed from time to time to extend the stopper to CBG, but 1) there aren't enough units; 2) XC have made no effort to source more units or bid for Turbostars due to be cascaded from other franchises (Scotrail, Greater Anglia etc); 3) the whole timetable would probably need to be re-cast, as the stopper and express reach Leicester within a few minutes of each other.

Just my two cents... feel free to correct or chip in.

 

[70014IronDuke]

... Leicester is now a very suburban city. It has a relatively small (by area) centre, and then a number of very clearly defined suburban districts that radiate out of the city along the main thoroughfares. There are lots of spacious fifties suburbs and more recent des-res developments.

Well, I thought it has been for years, TBH.

It is also a very car-oriented city. The post-war redevelopments and the inner ring road have made it very easy to drive, and the waves of immigration in the twentieth century have each delivered tight knit and quite well defined socio-ethnic-economic communities. Many of these communities are - over time - becoming affluent, and therefore car ownership is an important measure of wealth and success.

(In other words, it's a bit of a white-Audi city... I'm amazed by the number of young people driving £££ showy and expensive motors )

OK, but that is inevitable if there is no surburban services provided in any city.
As far as Leicester is concerned, you have got 1 TPH on the Ivanhoe line of course, and the Brum line - the latter 1 TPH stopping service for most stops, but Wigston south has seen its service cut back from when it first opened, so it is no longer hourly.

Of course, compared to 40 years ago, this is a vast improvement, but in terms of a modern service, this is only OK-ish, I'd say.
...

Could additional stations between Leicester and Melton work? Maybe, but there is no vision or money for the stations, which seem to be perilously expensive and architecturally unimaginative whenever Network Rail commissions them.
...

Well, yes. If you hae no vision, will or money for new stations or stock ... nothing much will change!

BTW, I believe there were plans to restore four tracks to Syston Sth Jcn - has that actually happened? Is it still on the cards, or has that been abandonned with electrification north of Glendon?

 

[TheBigD]

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