An ambitious, yet probably ridiculous, idea: Is the plane really faster?

[Ivo]

The thread "If you were a goverment minister for transport?" gave us a chance to decide what we believe would be the best course of action for improving public transport in the United Kingdom. However, it ultimately became a clichéd debate about which of the train and the plane is faster over any given distance. Now obviously, the plane will be beyond a certain point, under which the train has the edge - and that's before you even consider private transport, i.e. the car.

This has given me an ambitious, yet probably ridiculous, idea (hence the title). I would like to propose some sort of challenge to determine which of the three modes of transport is the fastest for a reasonable route across Britain.

The idea is simple. Starting at any one given location in the country, we then stage a race between the three main modes of long-distance transport, (road, rail and air) from this first location to a second location elsewhere. During testing for the idea, I chose Broad Quay in Bristol and Princes Street in Edinburgh, with a 14:00 start on a weekday, which threw up some astonishing results:

CAR: Drive all the way. Simple. According to the AA, this would take 6 hours, 37 minutes.
TRAIN: Use the 8 or 9 bus to Temple Meads, and use the 14:30 XC service changing at Birmingham New Street. Then use the 16:20 VWC service to Edinburgh, and walk the last few hundred metres. From station to station, this is 5 hours, 52 minutes; however, be warned that the alloted 30 minutes may not be enough! (The bus should take about 11 minutes, though, so it shouldn't be a problem.)
AIR: Use the A2 coach from Bristol Bus Station on Marlborough Street to Bristol Airport, checking in for 14:45. The flight then leaves at 16:45 and arrives at 17:55. This should give you about two and a half hours to leave the airport and reach the city centre on the AirLink 100 bus.

Now, in theory the plane would win this one, because frankly you shouldn't need that long in Edinburgh. However, I was thinking of a slightly more obscure route that would involve the customary slog to the airport (and not a fancy coach/bus that runs every few minutes from exactly where you are), such as (using the above example) Weston-super-Mare to Falkirk.

I know the idea is somewhat silly, and somewhat expensive, and somewhat time-consuming, but what do you all think?

And before anyone asks, yes, I do watch Top Gear.

 

[Lampshade]

Can't sleep either?

I've thought about this a few times, it'd be quite interesting if it was between two obscure places rather than city to city because of course, the car keeps moving when you have to wait for connections that call at all shacks via the world.

 

[Metroland]

Not sure really what it proves as the Top gear ones are all carefully staged to perpetuate the illusion Clarkeson's fantasy world is real.

Not sure you would find a route where it's that equal between the three, each mode some weak point in the journey. Few I can think of are

Brockenhurst-Bury
Brighton-Newcastle
Ashford-Skipton
Weston-super-Mare to Durham

 

[222666]

I dreampt (sp?) up a wacky idea of bus or coach operator running a Chinook type helicopter 'coach', a one-hop service between cities like London & Birmingham, Manchester etc... Dunno if airspace would allow such a service, as they'd be flying at light aircraft level, just that, no runways required, an airbourne bus if you will. There'd be some objection to the noise, no doubt :roll: But imagine a Chinook in NX or Stagecoach colours!

 

[jamesontheroad]

The trouble is that without comparable shuttle-type schedules, it would be very difficult not to weight such a challenge in favour of one mode of transport. Even between Heathrow and Glasgow / Edinburgh there isn't much pattern to flight departures; they're not clockface or as evenly spaced through the day as the train.

For example, a much fairer situation would be between the Canadian cities of Montréal and Toronto where Air Canada Rapidair planes leave every hour in the hour all day long. It is somehow a little unfair to compare hourly through trains with twice or thrice daily Easyjet or FlyBe planes.

 

[Heinz57]

What about London - Paris?

I don't know how long the train jurney is. But I reckon in this case it would be faster than the plane.

You've got to arrive for check in maybe 45 mins before the flight departs, the flight itself takes about 45 mins I reckon, plus theres the extra 10 mins of taxiing and cueing for takeoff at LHR. And then at arrival at CDG you need half an hour to leave the airport, what with getting off the plane, going through security, collecting baggage (if you've taken any) then from there you've got to get into Paris itself. I mean as far as I know the station on the Paris end of the Eurostar is right in the city

 

[MCR247]

When Iwas looking for a family member, we did a rough comparison for London - Paris and they were around the same I think

 

[flymo]

The trouble is that without comparable shuttle-type schedules, it would be very difficult not to weight such a challenge in favour of one mode of transport. Even between Heathrow and Glasgow / Edinburgh there isn't much pattern to flight departures; they're not clockface or as evenly spaced through the day as the train.

<snip>

It is somehow a little unfair to compare hourly through trains with twice or thrice daily Easyjet or FlyBe planes.

I agree.

If you do city centre - city centre then the train will have the advantage for the most part.
If you do airport to airport the plane will have the advantage for the most part.
If you do the middle of nowhere to the middle of nowhere it will be the car that has the advantage for the most part.

 

[MCR247]

But the thing is, on paper one is going to be quicker but when it comes to doing it, there could be an accident or delays, which would make it more interesting

 

[Ivo]

But the thing is, on paper one is going to be quicker but when it comes to doing it, there could be an accident or delays, which would make it more interesting

Exactly. You never know what could go wrong. For all we know, someone could drive off one of the flyovers at Spaghetti Junction and bring the whole of central Birmingham to a halt, thereby causing short distance travellers to overload the M6, medium-distance travellers to abandn thi cars and jam New Street, and long-distance travellers to abandn their cars and head for the airport. All three would be hit hard.

But to make it as fair as possible, it would have to be a realistic journey, so something ridiculous such as Winchelsea to Gretna would be discarded. When I first tried it, before realising how impractical it would be by air, I looked at Brighton to Blackpool (I think the difference resulted in having fifteen minutes to walk from Blackpool North to Talbot Square, site of the North Pier, which takes only half of that - i.e. the car would be somewhere between Pleasure Beach and South Pier). But on the other hand, if it is a direct route by train - which is far from always the case - then we give our mode of choice an unfair advantage. I do like the idea of London to Paris, but I don't think it's fair on the car. It'll be stuck in Dover or Cheriton while the other two are looking over the River Seine...

 

[LE Greys]

Whacking a few figures into Transport Direct gives me some interesting data.

My home in Hertfordshire to my old student flat in Aberdeen
Bus-Train-Bus (most of the journey on the Northern Lights) - 8hrs 17
Bus-Coach (777 NX Luton-Birmingham, 539 NX Birmingham-Glasgow, M8 Glasgow-Dundee, M9 Dundee-Aberdeen) - 14 hrs 38
Driving (A1(M)-A1-M90-A90) - 9hrs 39 without any stops for food/petrol
Air (EasyJet from Luton) not so exact, but probably 30 mins to/from airports each end, 1 hr check-in, 30 mins bag collection and 70 mins flying, so possibly 3 hrs 40. Factor in LazyJet's notorious lack of punctuality, however...

My home in Hertfordshire to visit my aunt in Crosshills, Yorks
Bus-Train (11:54 SVG-LDS, 13:56 LDS-COL) - 3 hrs 26
Car (A1(M)/A1-M606) 3hrs 44 (again non-stop)
No air route

Coniston (Cumb) to Barnstaple (Devon)
Bus-Train (WIN-OXM-BIR-ESD-BSL) - 8hrs 7
Bus-Train-Coach (WIN-OXM-BIR-TTN, NX 502) - 7hrs 54
Car (M6-M5) - 6hrs 33
Is there a Manchester-Exeter air route?

Blackpool-Brighton Thought I'd give it a try, but couldn't find the correct tram stop

Please let me know if I've got the station codes wrong

 

[me123]

Hmm... I'll try my house (in Coatbridge; an Eastern suburb of Glasgow) to The Palace of Westminster. I've always thought that rail would be the best option nowadays for such a journey; so I wonder if I can prove it! I'll leave at 9am tomorrow.

CAR:
Travel via the M74, M6 and M1. 397 miles. Time is 6 hours 46 minutes. Add on a 15 minute break every two hours or so. Break at Westmoreland services (add 20 minutes) Stafford for Lunch (45 minutes) and Newport Pagnall on the M1 (20 minutes). So I'm off the road for 1h25.

Total time 8 hours 11 minutes. I would arrive at 17:11.

BUS:

Leaving at about half-nine, I'd take First Glasgow 262 to Baillieston, then Citylink 900 to Glasgow Buchanan Street bus station, then Megabus M11 to London Victoria Station, then the 11 bus in London to the parliament.

Total Time: 11 hours 8 minutes. I would arrive at 20:36.

TRAIN:

I get the 09:49 train to Queen Street from Blairhill. This gives me time to get the 10:40 Virgin Trains to Euston, arriving 15:12. Travel on Victoria and Jubilee Lines, arriving at 15:45.

Total Time: 6 hours 12 minutes. I would arrive at 15:45.

AIRLINE: NO CAR:

For this option, I cannot use my car at the Glasgow end. I must use public transport.

To get to Glasgow Airport, I take the 09:19 from Blairhill, then the 500 bus to the Airport. I get to the Airport for 10:09. The first flight I could take to any London airport would be the 12:35 BD007 to Heathrow, landing at 14:05. Allowing time to get through LHR, I could get to Paddington at 15:04 (via Heathrow Express), I can then get to parliament for via the Bakerloo and Jubilee lines.

Total Time: 6 hours 32 minutes. I would arrive at 15:37.

AIRLINE: WITH CAR:

Leaving by car at 9am allows me to arrive in Glasgow Airport at 9:40am (allowing extra time for rish hour on the M8). I could then take BA1479 to LHR, arriving at 12:15. Heathrow Express gets me to Paddington at 13:34, and go then onwards as above (albeit two hours earlier.)

Total Time: 5 hours, 7 minutes. I would arrive at 14:07.

Sadly, I am wrong and the plane is still fastest provided you also have a car to get you to the airport. If you're relying on public transport, there's not much in it (but there's so many connections that something's fairly likely to go wrong somewhere).

Obviously, this has some drawbacks, such as not allowing for delays anywhere. And, of course, at other times, results may vary (particularly for the planes, which have very irregular timetables).

However, in summary;

• The car is fairly fast, but the need to constantly stop for fuel and food breaks adds a lot of time. You also have the problem of parking in London, and my figures do not allow for the inevitable peak time congestion in the Capital.
• The bus is pretty useless, with few services, by far the longest journey time, and reservations being mandatory, but will probably be the cheapest.
• Rail is not as good as I would have hoped, but most of the time is lost in connections at either end, with the journey itself being very fast thanks to the upgrades on the WCML.
• Flying is by far the best if you have a car to get you to the airport, otherwise travelling to Glasgow Airport takes an age. A case to revive GARL, perhaps?

 

[MCR247]

I'd love to see you get off the plane to Paddington in 3/4 of an hour (assuming you meant paddington at 13:04. It took me from Edinburgh almost 1 hour to get to T5 tube station!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Couple of points here:

The AA journey planner does tend to give optimistic timings which seem to assume you can travel at the relevant speed limits all the way; for example it gives a timing from my house to my parents house of 6 minutes ( roads of 30mph and 40mph just under 3 miles distance ), but in practice 15 minutes is more likely due to traffic volumes, traffic lights, speed profile...

It is more realistic in longer trips, except that it doesn't allow for refuelling or PNB type stops. Either way, you'll need to add a bit of time to the AA estimates even if there are no accidents / diversions affecting the journey.



The Chinook helicopter shuttle - nice idea, but helicopters are typically about 3 times more expensive than light fixed wing aircraft, so the fares are going to be rather high on such a service - even if it isn't operated by XC...!!

 

[me123]

I'd love to see you get off the plane to Paddington in 3/4 of an hour (assuming you meant paddington at 13:04. It took me from Edinburgh almost 1 hour to get to T5 tube station!

Never done Heathrow, so they are pretty optimistic timings perhaps! Nevertheless, I'm sure that it wouldn't take 3 hours to get out from a domestic flight! So it would actually be a bit quicker. I was basing the times on my experience of Glasgow Airport.

I have revised the second airport option slightly, because it was absolute rubbish when I read it through again! But the plane is still an hour quicker than the train if you've got a car!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The AA journey planner does tend to give optimistic timings which seem to assume you can travel at the relevant speed limits all the way; for example it gives a timing from my house to my parents house of 6 minutes ( roads of 30mph and 40mph just under 3 miles distance ), but in practice 15 minutes is more likely due to traffic volumes, traffic lights, speed profile...

I used Google Maps. I know the roads in the Glasgow area well, so the journey time to the airport and to Penrith will be fairly accurate and adjusted accordingly, assuming normal flows of traffic and no crazy roadworks. Otherwise, I've not accounted for traffic flows. I imagine that Catthorpe Junction and London at the times I'd be passing these areas will add considerably to my journey times. I did add at the bottom that I haven't been able to account for this, though. I have detailed in mine three stops, which I think is a bit on the cautious side, including one long stop at Stafford for a proper meal and refuelling (I reckon I can make it to London on two tanks no bother with my car).

And of course disruption can equally affect all modes of transport. I'm sure we all remember the volcano, and the numerous WCML shutdowns.

This is all theoretical, of course. The only way to prove any of these would be prohibitively expensive and time consuming. And, of course, these can and will vary on a day to day basis. Punctuality of all these forms of transport leaves a lot to be desired, and I'd guess that the railway option is in fact the most reliable despite public opinion!

 

[MCR247]

Could you not get the 0904 of Blairhill enabling you to catch the 0940 to Euston?

 

[CarterUSM]

Or chance the 0907 from Whifflet!

 

[LE Greys]

Playing with Transport Direct, the DB Travel Planner and the FlyBe timetable

My student flat in Aberdeen to the Birmingham Bull Ring (Moor St for convenience)
Air/Taxi - 3hrs 30 (BE324 ABZ-BHX - 90 mins)
Car - 7hr 31 (A90-M90-M9-M80-M73-M74-M6-A38(M))
Bus/Train - 7hr 32 (09:52 ABD-EDB, 12:55 EDB-BHM)
Remarkable dead heat
Bus/Coach - 14 hr 30 (NX538 to Manchester, NX325 to Birmingham)

Birmingham Bull Ring to the Eiffel Tower
Air - 4hrs 30 (BE7035 BHX-CDG - 90 min)
Rail/Metro - 5hrs 40 (10:10 BHM-EUS, 12:29 SPC-Paris Nord, Metro/RER to Champ de Mars)
Car - 7hrs 9 (M1-M25-M20-Chunnel-A26-A1)

Eiffel Tower to HMS Victory
Air/Taxi - About 3hrs 30 (BE1252 CDG-SOU - 65mins, but a longer taxi ride)
Air/Rail - About 4hrs 30 (same flight, but SAP-PMH direct or via SOU both add an hour)
Metro/Rail - 5hrs 41 (Metro/RER from Champ de Mars, 12:13 Paris Nord-SPC, 14:30 WLO-PMH)
Car - 6hrs 11
Metro/Rail/Ferry (just for a the sake of it) - 6hrs 48 (DB's timetable system sent me back to Paris rather than over the ferry, guess from the ferry company's 3hrs 15 crossing from Le Havre to Portsmouth)

Apologies for all the test edits, the thing logs me off if it takes me too long to post

 

[me123]

Or chance the 0907 from Whifflet!

I thought that, but I was going for booked connections to be safe. I don't like risking connections on the Whifflet trains; they never seem to go my way! A four minute connection at Glasgow Central really needs you to be on the ball.

The other thing is that I wanted to leave my house after 9am, so I'd never make Blairhill (I'm not quite able to manage a four minute mile!), and I'd only have 10 minutes to get to Kirkwood. The latter is do-able, but risky.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Is this a good time to mention that on one occasion I managed to pull out of Heathrow 1,2,3 on a Piccadilly Line train precisely 12 minutes after the wheels touched the ground...?!

OK, that's a bit of a cheat as it was an "up and back" charter to view Comet Hale Bopp ( this flight was in fact filmed for the BBC "Airport" documentary! ) so it was small hand baggage only ( mainly cameras and similar in shoulder bags ) and it did help things greatly that they parked at the gate nearest to the way in to the Unders...

My point is that although it is very unlikely to haqppen, there are occasions when the circumstances will give you an unbelievably good timing - and this applies to all modes of travel, not just flying.

As regards a challenge like this thread is proposing, I wonder about a straight city centre to city centre journey like London to Glasgow? In this instance, as the official centre of London is more or less exactly where the Eleanor Cross is outside Charing Cross station, and CX is 8 minutes from Euston by the Northern Line, I would guess that rail travel will have an inherent advantage that may produce a surprising result, especially if you get a tight connection onto a Glasgow train at Euston?

Which I suppose is why the less obvious routes are being suggested?

How about comparing the modes on, say, Newbury to Perth or Stirling?

 

[me123]

Is this a good time to mention that on one occasion I managed to pull out of Heathrow 1,2,3 on a Piccadilly Line train precisely 12 minutes after the wheels touched the ground...?!

OK, that's a bit of a cheat as it was an "up and back" charter to view Comet Hale Bopp ( this flight was in fact filmed for the BBC "Airport" documentary! ) so it was small hand baggage only ( mainly cameras and similar in shoulder bags ) and it did help things greatly that they parked at the gate nearest to the way in to the Unders...

I know that flight! That was the one with Patrick Moore going on about flash photography over the tannoy wasn't it?

 

[Ivo]

Blackpool-Brighton Thought I'd give it a try, but couldn't find the correct tram stop

(Psst: No-one said anything about the tram! It's a straight walk from North station to North Pier, while the car goes along the seafront.)

Using some of this data, I think we can safely say that the best option would be somewhere in the south-east within reasonable range of an airport (by coach ideally) to a similar location in the north of England or around Glasgow/Edinburgh. So I am going to try another example - my home in Southend to Pittodrie stadium in Aberdeen (the excuse being Manchester United playing Aberdeen at Pittodrie for Sir Alex Ferguson's 25th anniversary next year [which has not been planned to my knowledge], a game my brother would like to see), travelling on a Saturday...

...and boy, is it close! The AA give a time of 10h20, whereas NRE are quoting 9h45 for Thorpe Bay to Aberdeen. Allowing for leaving Thorpe Bay at 10:23 (giving 23 minutes walk, when my typical time is 12), that then gives 12 minutes to cover the last 2km on foot... Enjoy the run!

By air, though, it is another matter. The problem here is that are no flights from Stansted to Aberdeen, and use of the train would not be permitted, giving the traveller a headache as to how to win this particular race. My advice would be to call a taxi to take you to Heathrow for the 16:05 (that's six hours!) flight, touching down at Aberdeen at about 17:45. That would give just over two hours to get to Pittodrie.

 

[LE Greys]

(Psst: No-one said anything about the tram! It's a straight walk from North station to North Pier, while the car goes along the seafront.)

I've never been to Blackpool, not something you really know unless you go there.

 

[Ivo]

A fair point; neither had I until a couple of weeks ago. It's not exactly the Underground, where you always know where each station is (how may people on here could locate to within one station either way every station on network? - I know I could), after all.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I know that flight! That was the one with Patrick Moore going on about flash photography over the tannoy wasn't it?

You are quite right, it was indeed.

Brian May was on board as well, although I didn't realise who he was until after it was shown on TV when a mate said "You never told me Brian May was on that plane!" My reply was "Who?" and then he explained! Now, to me the tall chap with fuzzy hair I was talking to was just another astronomer; not being into pop / rock I genuinely hadn't heard of him before...!!!:roll:

I actually had a free ticket for that flight because the whole thing was my idea; I suggested it to the late Captain Douglas Ord some months previously when the comet was discovered and it became obvious it would be a long lead time bright one ); he liked the idea and laid on the flight. It was his firm's most successful charter - they ended up running two flights each from Heathrow and Manchester with 767s, such was the huge demand.

Sadly it was Douglas's last charter event; he became ill very soon after and it was just a matter of weeks before he went. He was a great character, excellent sense of humour, and a real privilege to know him. My last sight of him was when I disembarked and shook his hand at the door of the aircraft.

 

[Lampshade]

that then gives 12 minutes to cover the last 2km on foot... Enjoy the run!

Easy

 

[scotsman]

TRAIN: Use the 8 or 9 bus to Temple Meads...(The bus should take about 11 minutes, though, so it shouldn't be a problem.)

Sod the bus, I've run that in 15 mins!

 

[starrymarkb]

Is there a Manchester-Exeter air route?

Yes there is, though I believe its mostly used by through passengers connecting onto Eithad or other flybe flights. I suspect some of the shorter Exeter flights are positioning moves to the workshops at Exeter.

Presumably there may be a similar thing now Flybe are doing a tie up with Air France via CDG.

Also when I drove Exeter to Whitby last year my car was faster then public transport by about 90 mins, (inc a 45 minute wait for the coastliner bus at York) - I'd been priced out by XC so tried driving.

 

[imagination]

My parents' house - my student flat in Aberdeen

Fly:
leave home 8:45
£1.90 train ticket
arrive in reading 9:12
£14 railair
leave reading 9:25
arrive heathrow 10:15
check in 10:40
11:45 £71 flight
12:20 arrival in Aberdeen
£1.25 train
13:02 train from Dyce
13:13 arrival in Aberdeen
arrive at flat c. 13:25
4 hours 40 mins at a cost of £88.15, a lot of waiting and a lot of lugging around bags

train (what I am doing)
£27 for whole journey
leave home 8:40
get to London 9:26
Depart London 10:30
Arrive in Aberdeen 17:37
8 hours 57 mins for a total cost of £27 and less carrying luggage around.

Car:
AA gives 9 hours 35 mins time. So probably at least 12, plus stops. On a good day.
Total cost - about £500 per journey on average. No carrying luggage, but very stressful and exhausting and would need to buy petrol.

 

[MCR247]

Why would you carry less luggage around?