An 16-25 Railcard Question?

[Simon Poole]

I went to Stafford today from Rugeley Town, on the way up i got an free ride :cry: becuase non of the London Midland staff on the Rugeley Town - Rugeley Trent Valley and the Rugeley Trent Valley - Stafford didn't came up!

Went to Stafford to pick up some tickets for Crewe to visity the Hertiage Centre (July 31st Giant Of Steam weekend Open day)

After i sorted the tickets, stayed in Stafford for an hour, took photos and boarded the 1621 back to Rugeley Trent Valley

Conductor came up to me and i asked for an single to Rugeley Town, showed him my 16-25 Railcard, he responded 'Can use this on here but you can at the station' ended up having to pay an £4.10 Anytime Day ticket to get back to Rugeley Town

There was another time this happened before it was an sunday annd travelling from work in Stafford going back to Rugeley Town, arrived at the station 1617 and they put the 1618 on Platform 4, no time to get an ticket, crossed over and caught the 1618, conductor came down and i asked for an single to Rugeley Town, showed him my 16-25 railcard and he told me that i can't use my railcard becuase Stafford is an staffed booking office?

Is it worth making an complaint about this?

 

[theblackwatch]

Terms & Conditions 5 and 6 from your railcard taken from http://www.16-25railcard.co.uk/buy-16-25-railcard/railcard-terms-conditions :

5.Tickets for your journey should be purchased before boarding the train and when buying tickets you must show the Railcard.

6.You must carry your Railcard with you on your journey and when asked by rail staff, you must show a valid ticket and valid Railcard. If you fail to do so, you will be required to pay the full price Standard Single fare for your journey as if no ticket was purchased before starting the journey and in some cases a Penalty Fare. This does not apply if there was no ticket office at the station at which you began your journey or if the ticket office was closed and there was no ticket machine from which you could buy a discounted ticket.

 

[First class]

Hang on?!!

You didn't pay for your first journey...

Secondly, the ticket office at Stafford was open, and you decided not to buy a ticket. You are not entitled to purchase a discounted ticket on board! You also committed fraud by not buying a ticket when you got off at Stafford in the first place.

I would also imagine you are lucky not to get 2 x £20 Penalty Fares. (one for each direction)

 

[Crossover]

As theblackwatck quotes, you can only buy a ticket on the train with a railcard (of any sort I think) if you got on at a station with no provision for buying a ticket (from a person or machine)

One interesting question that could be taken from this though - what if you got on the return train from Stafford and requested a Rugeley Town - Stafford return with railcard? Would they be able to do that or likewise, if you ere going to, should you have got that at Stafford anyway?

 

[krus_aragon]

As mentioned above, if there's a ticket office open you should use your railcard there to get your discount. The only time guards have to let you use a railcard is if there was no ticket office / machine at the station where you got on.

Given that you got away with not paying for the first journey (and didn't offer to pay for the return ticket when you arrived or came back) I'd say you haven't got a leg to stand on, complaint-wise.

 

[Crossover]

Oh yes, FirstClass has also just reminded me, you are lucky as Stafford isn't in a penalty fare zone. Rugeley Town can't be a penalty station if there is no way of buying a ticket first although I have a feeling some stations on that line may be in the penalty fare area.

Provision for buying tickets is also the P&D type machines they have at the likes of Bourneville (penalty fare station) whereby you have to put some money to prove you were trying to buy a ticket then pay the difference on the train

 

[sonic2009]

Rugley Town has a self service machine and is a station in the penalty fares zone, and also Rugley Trent Valley,so you have already passed 2 ticket machines on your way to stafford, so if you were checked on the either train a penalty fare would of been issued, and also you have walked passed machines and an open ticket office at stafford, so the guard is doing is job properley not giving you discount, and its stated in your railcard conditions as well.

i suggest you look a this leaflet as well, as 2 penalty fares would of been issued if caught by revenue protection. so i wouldnt bother complaning, pretty much a stupid question

http://www.londonmidland.com/tickets-and-fares/penalty-fares/
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Oh yes, FirstClass has also just reminded me, you are lucky as Stafford isn't in a penalty fare zone. Rugeley Town can't be a penalty station if there is no way of buying a ticket first although I have a feeling some stations on that line may be in the penalty fare area.

Provision for buying tickets is also the P&D type machines they have at the likes of Bourneville (penalty fare station) whereby you have to put some money to prove you were trying to buy a ticket then pay the difference on the train

stafford is a penalty fare station, as well as rugley town, and trent valley

 

[transportphoto]

Oh yes, FirstClass has also just reminded me, you are lucky as Stafford isn't in a penalty fare zone. Rugeley Town can't be a penalty station if there is no way of buying a ticket first although I have a feeling some stations on that line may be in the penalty fare area.

Provision for buying tickets is also the P&D type machines they have at the likes of Bourneville (penalty fare station) whereby you have to put some money to prove you were trying to buy a ticket then pay the difference on the train

The haven't got a 'Permit to Travel' machine at Bournville (unless they have installed it since Monday!) but they have at Kings Norton (a stop down the line) heres a picture of it: Click Here.

To have been 'in the right' for the whole journey - you should have bought a return to Stafford from the TVM at TV+ and excessed both parts from/to Town at your destination station, Stafford (paying the £0.45 difference) explaining that you were unable to buy the correct ticket required for the journey you undertook. (+ If it was functioning, it was the first available place to pay part fare, other than finding the guard on the previous service)

You were very lucky that the Guard on the service from Stafford wasn't PF authorized as in this instance you were liable for one on that leg - and another one on the outward from TV, as they are both PF stations.

Edit:

Rugley Town has a self service machine

No, the station has no ticket issuing facilities at all - so even though it is the PF area they can't be applied!

 

[Simon Poole]

Thank you, you all been helpful, after the first incident, i had an little trouble understanding read the rules and i was thinking doesn't tell you about the problem, but after today inncident, everything is now clear, The conductor on the 1621 was right, even if i tried to complain it would be an waste of time, the fault there is mine for not getting an ticket at the station

As for the journey up, that wasn't my fault, perhaps if London Midland staff did their job properly, when i sat on both trains from Rugeley to Stafford, they see me get on, i sat in my seat had the railcard and money out and waited but no one came up

In fact on Wednesday, i saw an London Midland person on one of the afternoon services, leaving Rugeley Trent Valley, he was sitting in the back of the cab, reading an newspaper

 

[Mike395]

Simon, it sadly doesn't matter if there is a guard on the train or not, if there is a (working :P ) ticket machine at your origin station you should attempt to purchase your ticket there. A simple return to Stafford would almost certainly be available from such a machine .

 

[Simon Poole]

Rugley Town has a self service machine and is a station in the penalty fares zone, and also Rugley Trent Valley,so you have already passed 2 ticket machines on your way to stafford, so if you were checked on the either train a penalty fare would of been issued, and also you have walked passed machines and an open ticket office at stafford, so the guard is doing is job properley not giving you discount, and its stated in your railcard conditions as well.
http://www.londonmidland.com/tickets-and-fares/penalty-fares/
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


stafford is a penalty fare station, as well as rugley town, and trent valley

Rugeley Trent Valley does have an self servicing machine, located next to the exit/entrance, all Rugeley Town has is an little Orange box! if you use it, it only gives you an ticket but you only paid an pound or half of your full fare and you have to stil pay the fare on the train

There has been times that i boarded an train at Rugeley Town, arrived at Rugeley Trent Valley without paying beciase the London Midland conductors can't bothered to do their job properly, but sometimes when i board an train at Rugeley Trent Valley, conductor walks up, i ask for an single or return on the train, and i get no problems, they print out the ticket while i'm on the train with the discount

(Off Peaks) £1.90 single £2.00 return from Rugeley Trent Valley to Stafford

 

[Mike395]

Ah, I get you now. Even so, getting a Permit To Travel (a tcket from the little orange box) should mean that the Railcard discount will be available on the train

 

[transportphoto]

Simon, it sadly doesn't matter if there is a guard on the train or not, if there is a (working :P ) ticket machine at your origin station you should attempt to purchase your ticket there. A simple return to Stafford would almost certainly be available from such a machine .

But there isn't a ticket issuing device at Rugley Town, the first available place to pay part of the fare was either when the guard cme through to check/issue tickets or at Trent Valley (TVM) and excess that ticket at Stafford to Town as TVM's can only issue from their own station so the correct ticket was not available (except when issuing TOD).

EDIT: Sorry, the PTT doesn't show up on the National Rail Stations Made Easy page for Town, I was assuming that their wasn't one as at other stations it is shown!

Ah, I get you now. Even so, getting a Permit To Travel (a tcket from the little orange box) should mean that the Railcard discount will be available on the train

Yep!

 

[yorkie]

Thank you, you all been helpful, after the first incident, i had an little trouble understanding read the rules and i was thinking doesn't tell you about the problem, but after today inncident, everything is now clear, The conductor on the 1621 was right, even if i tried to complain it would be an waste of time, the fault there is mine for not getting an ticket at the station

Yes, that's right. You should have got a return at Stafford station.

Writing a complaint would be futile especially if you admitted getting the outward journey "for free" which would be an admission of fare evasion, especially as you asked for, and were sold, a single, not a return.

As for the journey up, that wasn't my fault, perhaps if London Midland staff did their job properly, when i sat on both trains from Rugeley to Stafford, they see me get on, i sat in my seat had the railcard and money out and waited but no one came up

Technically it's Down from Rugeley to Stafford and perhaps the guards' ticket machine was not working? You can buy at Stafford in this case.

In fact on Wednesday, i saw an London Midland person on one of the afternoon services, leaving Rugeley Trent Valley, he was sitting in the back of the cab, reading an newspaper

If you really want a ticket you could always knock on the cab and ask for a ticket. He may then apologise and say his ticket machine isn't working, or maybe he will issue one. There's no obligation to do this though, and you are entitled to pay at your destination (or interchange station if applicable and if time permits).

 

[Simon Poole]

The Orange box, at Rugeley Town, you have to put an £1 i think into the Machine, it prints an ticket off but doesn't pay for your full ticket, when boarding the train, you have the pay the rest, i think that's how it works, but you still have to get your discount with the rest of your fare on the train

and the free fare from Rugeley Town to Stafford, it's not just me, there possibly range from one to an dozen people board the train at Rugeley Trent Valley to Stafford and don't get an ticket purchase on the train

someone times i even see people walking into Rugeley Trent Valley station from the carpark and don't even have tickets and they board the train and no conductor comes up to them

 

[yorkie]

The Orange box, at Rugeley Town, you have to put an £1 i think into the Machine, it prints an ticket off but doesn't pay for your full ticket, when boarding the train, you have the pay the rest, i think that's how it works, but you still have to get your discount with the rest of your fare on the train

Yes, or at your destination if no-one comes through on the train.

and the free fare from Rugeley Town to Stafford, it's not just me, there possibly range from one to an dozen people board the train at Rugeley Trent Valley to Stafford and don't get an ticket purchase on the train

someone times i even see people walking into Rugeley Trent Valley station from the carpark and don't even have tickets and they board the train and no conductor comes up to them

I suggest you either send a PM to London_Midland on this forum or write to London Midland customer services, if you think they are losing revenue they may be interested to hear about it.

 

[Mike395]

Simon, the key thing to remember is you MUST get a ticket from the orange box at Rugely Town every time you travel, otherwise you're liable to a penalty fare if caught at Stafford, it's not just the issue of possibly having to pay full fare . You should also 'upgrade' it to a full fare at your first opportunity, even if this is your destination station - all discounts should be available.

 

[yorkie]

By the way I would also like to know how you know that the customers who come from the car park don't have tickets, did they tell you they wanted to buy tickets or something?

 

[transportphoto]

If it is a standard PTT machine then you can put any amount in up-to the amount your ticket costs (you can pay in full if you want) then you must change it for a ticket Railcard discounts apply (and pay any extra if necessary) at the first available opportunity, which is in this case within the 2 hours you are allowed to do so.

However if you are intending to pay by card and have no cash on you then you can not be PFed as there was no facilities for you to obtain a PTT (or ticket).

 

[Simon Poole]

This is an picture of the Orange Box at Rugeley Town, it's an Permit to Travel machine

http://img203.imageshack.us/i/sdc16139.jpg/

http://img823.imageshack.us/i/permittotravel.jpg/

 

[Bittern]

Hate to be a grammar nazi, but you only use "an" before a vowel.

 

[lm321412]

Go on, complain we can all have a good laugh then when they respond!

 

[transportphoto]

Go on, complain we can all have a good laugh then when they respond!

It is not recommended as the OP would only be admitting Fare Evasion.

 

[142094]

It is not recommended as the OP would only be admitting Fare Evasion.

He could easily just leave that part out.

 

[yorkie]

I don't see how he can complain at being charged full fare on a TOC that has a 'pay full fare on board' policy'when he boarded at a station with an open ticket office

 

[142094]

I don't see how he can complain at being charged full fare on a TOC that has a 'pay full fare on board' policy'when he boarded at a station with an open ticket office

There are quite a few people who will complain even when there is nothing to complain about! Too much time on their hands if you ask me

 

[Simon Poole]

I don't see how he can complain at being charged full fare on a TOC that has a 'pay full fare on board' policy'when he boarded at a station with an open ticket office

I did get overcharged on my ticket, i had to pay a anytime at least he should had gave me an off peak!

one of my brothers had his ticket booked to Stafford but wanted to go to Rugeley, we were at Stoke-On-Trent and boarded the train, he asked for an ticket from Stafford to Rugeley Trent Valley and managed to pay on the train with his 16-25 railcard and got the £1.90 single off peak ticket! he paid for it seconds after leaving Stoke-On-Trent

 

[MikeWh]

There's a difference between asking for a ticket when you haven't got one (or a permit to travel), and asking for an extension to a ticket before that ticket has run out.

 

[yorkie]

I did get overcharged on my ticket, i had to pay a anytime at least he should had gave me an off peak!

His actions were correct.

Unless travelling with GC/HT/WSMR/A railtour operator, you must pay the "full" Anytime Single or, if requested, Return fare when buying on board UNLESS suitable ticket issuing facilities were NOT available where you started your journey. Facilities were available at Stafford, where you started your return journey, were they not?

By the way did you offer to pay for your outward journey? If not, you may be prosecuted for fare evasion, if you write to LM admitting what you have admitted here!

one of my brothers had his ticket booked to Stafford but wanted to go to Rugeley, we were at Stoke-On-Trent and boarded the train, he asked for an ticket from Stafford to Rugeley Trent Valley and managed to pay on the train with his 16-25 railcard and got the £1.90 single off peak ticket! he paid for it seconds after leaving Stoke-On-Trent

Yes, he was already in possession of a valid ticket, and wanted to extend it. This has been discussed before in previous threads. Most guards will issue onward tickets with full discounts, it is unclear if they are obliged to but I, and most, will see no reason why not.

 

[ainsworth74]

Isn't there a member on here who works for London Midland? I wonder if they've seen this thread?