Amsterdam Eurostar

[StephenHunter]

Just looking to what may happen in the near future how many services run through multiple EU countries from none EU countries and how is it managed?

A lot of the sleeper trains from Ukraine and Russia call in more than one EU country. The Paris-Moscow Express goes through Russia, Belarus, Poland, Germany & France. The Schengen passport and customs checks are dealt with by having the train stop at Terespol going in and out. As has been the procedure since 1945 when the current Polish borders were established. Belarus and Russia are in their own customs union with an open border (but only for citizens of those two countries) so both sets of checks are handled at Brest.

 

[Capybara]

I've trawled through this thread and it's a bit difficult filtering fact from speculation but I've only seen one reference to the 08:31 until recent days. In fact this train has been running for several weeks and was bookable to Brussels before Christmas, though not appearing on the printed and printable timetables. It also was not appearing on live updates on the Eurostar site. I travelled on this service last week and it was a pleasurable experience going non-stop to Brussels. While it was listed as full the night before travel it was anything but - presumably allowing for hypothetical Amsterdam travellers. The destination boards on the side of the train and on-board stated that it was an Amsterdam train calling at Rotterdam. At Brussels we were asked to get off as quickly as possible (Platform 3) as the train would be continuing further. So I hung around and it duly departed for Amsterdam at 11:30 with only staff aboard. Sorry if some of this has previously been reported, but I thought an actual report might be of interest.

 

[LLivery]

I didn't realise Geneva could be achieved in 5. Looking at the SNCF map, Strasbourg could probably be done in around 4.

 

[Bald Rick]

I didn't realise Geneva could be achieved in 5. Looking at the SNCF map, Strasbourg could probably be done in around 4.

Strasbourg could be done in 4, but the market isn't there. Ryanair fly twice a week from Stansted (except in winter, when they don't fly at all). Even if the train went on to Stuttgart (a little over 5hrs), there's not much market. Only about 7 flights a day from London.

 

[Alfie1014]

Geneva is an odd one. The infrastructure has been there for a 5h journey time since the Ligne du Haut Bugey was upgraded in 2010. However AIUI the trains need 15kV capability for the last leg into Geneva, so the old Eurostars can't do it. Nevertheless there is great potential, particularly in winter for the ski market (75,000 people a week fly London-Geneva Jan-March). Eurostar could easily fill 2 trains from St Pancras early on winter Saturday mornings, and they could pretty much charge what they like for the half term weekend. Finding paths on the LGV south of Paris is the issue. I think this is why Eurostar haven't run winter Saturday trains to Lyon St Exupery, which would be another banker, and perfect for the ski market.

The line into Geneva from Bellegarde was/is still 1500v dc but is/has been recently converted to 25kv ac, that said I assume the signalling from the border is standard SBB rather SNCF, though might be ERTC/ERTMS convertable? .

 

[Bald Rick]

The line into Geneva from Bellegarde was/is still 1500v dc but is/has been recently converted to 25kv ac, that said I assume the signalling from the border is standard SBB rather SNCF, though might be ERTC/ERTMS convertable? .

Yep is was converted to 25kV in 2010, however I wasnt sure where the changeover to 15kV was on the Swiss side. Signalling is also an issue.

 

[Alfie1014]

Yep is was converted to 25kV in 2010, however I wasnt sure where the changeover to 15kV was on the Swiss side. Signalling is also an issue.

No the SNCF track were always discrete and ran into separate platforms at Cornavin (indeed you have to go through a separate entracnce with or without customs, like at Basle), though some roads may have been dual feed or they used a diesel shunter for the few through trains. The main frieght yard to the west of Geneva again had seperate or dual fed track for loco changes where necesaary.

 

[33Hz]

Having now witnessed the entire operation of shutting the doors, clearing the platform, having a whole troop of Securirail personnel guarding the platform for the duration of the train's 20+ minute stop and then opening back up again afterwards, I am not convinced about the sustainability of this to be honest.

First they shut all the roller doors on the platform, then the south-facing platform 3/4 escalator from the Thalys waiting area downstairs is shut off with another roller door, then they open some sliding doors coming from the Eurostar terminal and (in theory) the passengers will go up from there. It appears the same might happen in the south corridor end, although building work there is still ongoing. There is a lift that is normally available to both sides of the island platform, but that was only available to access from platform 4 (so an issue for disabled Eurostar passengers to access platform 3?).

While all this was going on a Thalys rolled in to platform 4 and disgorged hundreds of passengers. The tight squeeze as they all headed along the platform to the available escalator at the northern end was a problem and should there be any kind of emergency issue this will be a real choke point.

It seems like the operation needs a lot more security and railway personnel. That begs the question of are they recruiting more just for this, or are they borrowed from other duties around the station? Does it leave the rest of the station vulnerable each time a through-Eurostar rolls in?

All this hassle could and should have been avoided by having the passport controls on the London arrivals side, like a plane...


As for viability of other destinations: DB showed that the claimed rules around needing continuous 400 metre trains were a nonsense. Eurostar could have changed their follow-on order with Siemens to 2x 200 metre sets to split in Brussels with half to/from Amsterdam and half to/from Germany. Maybe they still can with a new batch.

 

[SHD]

All this hassle could and should have been avoided by having the passport controls on the London arrivals side, like a plane...

"Over my dead body" will shout UKBF.

 

[StephenHunter]

Having now witnessed the entire operation of shutting the doors, clearing the platform, having a whole troop of Securirail personnel guarding the platform for the duration of the train's 20+ minute stop and then opening back up again afterwards, I am not convinced about the sustainability of this to be honest.

First they shut all the roller doors on the platform, then the south-facing platform 3/4 escalator from the Thalys waiting area downstairs is shut off with another roller door, then they open some sliding doors coming from the Eurostar terminal and (in theory) the passengers will go up from there. It appears the same might happen in the south corridor end, although building work there is still ongoing. There is a lift that is normally available to both sides of the island platform, but that was only available to access from platform 4 (so an issue for disabled Eurostar passengers to access platform 3?).

While all this was going on a Thalys rolled in to platform 4 and disgorged hundreds of passengers. The tight squeeze as they all headed along the platform to the available escalator at the northern end was a problem and should there be any kind of emergency issue this will be a real choke point.

It seems like the operation needs a lot more security and railway personnel. That begs the question of are they recruiting more just for this, or are they borrowed from other duties around the station? Does it leave the rest of the station vulnerable each time a through-Eurostar rolls in?

All this hassle could and should have been avoided by having the passport controls on the London arrivals side, like a plane...


As for viability of other destinations: DB showed that the claimed rules around needing continuous 400 metre trains were a nonsense. Eurostar could have changed their follow-on order with Siemens to 2x 200 metre sets to split in Brussels with half to/from Amsterdam and half to/from Germany. Maybe they still can with a new batch.

DB didn't run their ICE through with passengers though.

 

[33Hz]

DB didn't run their ICE through with passengers though.

DB did a full evacuation exercise in the tunnel, amongst other things, and received permission to run 2 units in multiple.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...iew/db-prepares-for-channel-tunnel-tests.html

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...b-submits-channel-tunnel-ice-safety-case.html

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...s-deutsche-bahn-access-to-channel-tunnel.html

 

[paolo]

All this hassle could and should have been avoided by having the passport controls on the London arrivals side, like a plane...

Sounds like it would be moving the problem from one place to another. Does St Pancras currently support segregation of arrivals passengers - pre-cleared, and not-precleared? If not, work would need to be done there. And then in a few years, abandon all that, assuming that the most customer friendly solution is to clear baggage security and border control all in one place, i.e. origin.

As clumsy as the Brussels fudge sounds from what you've seen, I expect they're taking the view of "skate to where to the puck will be".

 

[33Hz]

Sounds like it would be moving the problem from one place to another.

It's a British made problem and I think the British should own it. Making one set of segregated lanes in St Pancras has to be a lot easier than this palava in every station Eurostar wants to serve. If they move the controls to London, we might see Eurostar serving many more places.

As for security checks - the only other time I have experienced it in a rail context is Spain after the Madrid attacks, where a whole AVE train was checked through a portable x-ray machine and metal detector arch in a few minutes.

 

[jellybaby]

Does St Pancras currently support segregation of arrivals passengers - pre-cleared, and not-precleared?

I think it does for the Disney train.

The UK Border Agency is not able to carry out passport checks on departure from Marne-la-Vallée station (Disneyland® Paris). Passports are checked on arrival in the UK

 

[33Hz]

I think it does for the Disney train.

The UK Border Agency is not able to carry out passport checks on departure from Marne-la-Vallée station (Disneyland® Paris). Passports are checked on arrival in the UK

Great, so there is a precedent for this. Why can't the same be applied for new, lower volume destinations like south of France and Netherlands until passenger numbers grow enough to justify a separate investment?

 

[leshuttle]

I think it does for the Disney train.

The UK Border Agency is not able to carry out passport checks on departure from Marne-la-Vallée station (Disneyland® Paris). Passports are checked on arrival in the UK

Likewise Ashford and Ebbsfleet must have support for this since the Marne-la-Vallée service stops at them both outward and return.

 

[paolo]

Maybe then, the issue is placement of security screening rather than border control?

That definitely can’t be done on arrival.

 

[33Hz]

Maybe then, the issue is security screening rather than border control?

Which as I said, the Spanish manged to do with portable equipment and a few minutes.

If the Eurostar security is there to protect the train (from what I don't know, it's no different to any other service), then it needs to be done before departure.

If the security is there to stop people bringing illegal items into the UK, then it still could be done at the London end.

 

[paolo]

Customs is an arrival process, always has been.

Security screening is different. You’ll have seen the scale of the operation. High throughput scanners, swab analysis machines. And the space & option to add new/different machines as terrorist threats evolve.

 

[33Hz]

Security screening is different.

Then if we are worried about people bringing on items to attack the actual train or hijack it () then one has to ask why every other high speed train leaving the same places isn't treated the same way. DB managed to challenge the conventional wisdom that the tunnel needed 400 metre trains - someone needs to do the same for this.

 

[paolo]

Then if we are worried about people bringing on items to attack the actual train or hijack it () then one has to ask why every other high speed train leaving the same places isn't treated the same way. DB managed to challenge the conventional wisdom that the tunnel needed 400 metre trains - someone needs to do the same for this.

In which case you’re making a different, broader, argument - that the current level of security for the tunnel is inappropriate. And security goes beyond terrorist threats. There’s a bunch of rules regarding carrying gas, for example.

Drop all of this because of two trains a day from Amsterdam, which - we’re told -will be resolved in two years?

 

[paolo]

Still, there was one other option - do security clearing on departure right away. Maybe that was considered. Maybe not.

 

[33Hz]

There’s a bunch of rules regarding carrying gas

I have taken multiple large gas cylinders through on Le Shuttle in a (declared and security checked) camper van. At most I could get a couple of portable stove cartridges into a bag on Eurostar. I am not checked when boarding a TGV through an Alpine tunnel, so this is a classic example of the kind of nonsense that should be challenged as I stated above.

Drop all of this because of two trains a day from Amsterdam, which - we’re told -will be resolved in two years?

Exactly - and you have missed my point - that if all this were dropped it might become economic to offer services (or at least put a toe in the water) from Bordeaux, Geneva, Frankfurt and other far-flung destinations. While the UK requires other railway operators to make major changes to hub stations just for (as you say) 2 trains a day, we could be waiting a lifetime for it to happen.

 

[paolo]

You could only get those small gas cartridges on Eurostar if security missed them. There’s basic tools I sometimes need that aren’t allowed on the train anymore (but would be fine in a car)

So I take your point that the rules aren’t consistent. But even if the rules were made consistent, I can’t see there being a wholesale abandonment of the procedures that exist now.

(Personally, I’d go further than you suggest - join Schengen and make things even easier. Chances of that: Less than zero. )

 

[LLivery]

Strasbourg could be done in 4, but the market isn't there. Ryanair fly twice a week from Stansted (except in winter, when they don't fly at all). Even if the train went on to Stuttgart (a little over 5hrs), there's not much market. Only about 7 flights a day from London.

Ah, I was doubting the viability. Would've been useful for "European Bureaucrats" . Would absolutely love to go directly from London to Geneva.
--
I always assumed the checks was more for tunnel security than anything else. Just think of the idiots who decided to bring War ordnance on Eurostar

 

[43096]

Great, so there is a precedent for this. Why can't the same be applied for new, lower volume destinations like south of France and Netherlands until passenger numbers grow enough to justify a separate investment?

Just do all the border checks on arrival at St. Pancras, Ashford or Ebbsfleet, as is done with planes landing at UK airports. It really is time Eurotunnel challenged this. Whilst the security clearance would still need to be carried out it would be one less problem with starting new services. It would also mean there wouldn't be the UK Border staff at Bruxelles Midi, who are unfailingly miserable.

 

[SHD]

To all:
Please remember that immigration and customs procedures of all transportation using the Channel Tunnel are governed by treaties between the UK, France, and Belgium.
Please also remember that the UK government has consistently adopted an inflexible position since the late 1990s, as reflected in the Touquet agreement.
No amount of challenging or pestering by Eurostar, Eurotunnel, DB or any other stakeholder will have the slightest bit of influence on Westminster.

 

[33Hz]

To all:
Please remember that immigration and customs procedures of all transportation using the Channel Tunnel are governed by treaties between the UK, France, and Belgium.
Please also remember that the UK government has consistently adopted an inflexible position since the late 1990s, as reflected in the Touquet agreement.
No amount of challenging or pestering by Eurostar, Eurotunnel, DB or any other stakeholder will have the slightest bit of influence on Westminster.

That's why it is interesting that there is a precedent set by the Disneyland trains for having immigration and customs on the UK side for incoming trains.

If the only thing happening at Marne-la-Vallée is a security check, this is governed by the Intergovermental Commission that sets the rules for the tunnel - and as DB showed, they can be challenged and did respond to logic.

 

[paolo]

So - correct me if I’ve misunderstood - you’re proposing that the security checks are dropped? (Just leaving the border control in London).

 

[33Hz]

So - correct me if I’ve misunderstood - you’re proposing that the security checks are dropped? (Just leaving the border control in London).

Why should it be different to any other high speed train if the customs and immigration are in London?