Amount of coupons

[AndyP]

Why are so many tickets needed when booking trains via London and on Advance tickets?

I regularly book advance tickets from Manchester to London and there is always two tickets, the actual ticket and the reservation.
This week I have booked a single from Southampton to Manchester via London and there are three tickets, one that says Southampton to Manchester, the other is the seat reservation from Euston to Manchester and the other is the non-existent seat reservation from Southampton to Waterloo (ticket shows Coach * and Seats ***).

Why cant there just be one ticket showing the correct route and whether a seat can be reserved or not?

 

[mikeg]

Because the reservation shows which train your ticket is valid on, just putting whether a reservation is obtainable or not would not be enough. I suppose the 'main' ticket could be done away with, as I'm sure all necessary information would fit on the reservation tickets, but not the other way 'round. It's the disadvantage of having credit-card sized tickets. If we had larger tickets like in many other European countries, all of the information could be put on the ticket. But I'm not sure people would like that.

The 'non-existent reservation' shows which train you must travel on, even though you do not have a reserved seat.

 

[yorkie]

This has cropped up a few times before (e.g. Leeds to Leicester both ways and with a bike produced 16 coupons).

The rail industry is considering ways to reduce the number of coupons.

If someone can design a coupon that could hold all the relevant information and be able to hold details of several trains, then if that design is posted here, it would be interesting to see...

 

[transportphoto]

Also, it would have to fit the current thermal printers that are currently deployed across the network. It would be uneconomical to replace every single ticket printer.

TP

 

[island]

This has cropped up a few times before (e.g. Leeds to Leicester both ways and with a bike produced 16 coupons).

The rail industry is considering ways to reduce the number of coupons.

If someone can design a coupon that could hold all the relevant information and be able to hold details of several trains, then if that design is posted here, it would be interesting to see...

Irish Rail seems to manage it. A return advance ticket from Ennis to Dublin Heuston, changing at Limerick and Limerick Junction so 3 trains each way, prints on one coupon. Here, it would be eight.

 

[Eagle]

An example I just pulled from a Google image search.

(I notice that the ticket machine this came out of clearly didn't know what a euro sign was.)

 

[BestWestern]

It really is time ATOC etc tackled this. It is confusing, wasteful and ultimately completely needless to use so many ticket stock coupons for Advance purchase travellers. When checking tickets, you will come across numerous people on every train who are completely baffled, which then wastes time whilst you/they sort through what is actually required for inspection, and then explain which bits they need to retain for barriers/other trains etc.

One could suggest that a sensible option here, at least for those who receive their tickets through the post, would be to enclose the travel tickets in their current form and place all other information onto a simple sheet of A4 paper. This would be cheap, simple to produce and allow all the required details of reservations etc to be included, in plainer and easier to read form than what is currently produced on reservation coupons. There would be sufficient space on the paper (perhaps pre-printed on the rear) to enclose a handy 'user guide' to advise pax of what they need to know and do with their tickets and so on. This could be shown to the Guard along with the actual travel ticket itself.

As for those who are brave enough to collect their tickets from a TVM upon arrival, there would obviously need to be another plan here. It is a concern how many people fail to pick up all of their 'coupons', and then present to you a 'Collection Receipt' thinking that the one bit of card they saw tumble into the tray was their ticket, oblivious to the other bits they left behind. Do the machines make it clear enough, if indeed they point it out at all, that the passenger needs to collect X number of coupons? Why is there a need to produce the above mentioned 'Collection Receipt' (as opposed to a payment receipt), what purpose does it actually serve? If the person concerned has lost their actual ticket, the receipt will not convey them on a train, so what is it for? I have to say that I dislike the current model of collecting from TVM's. The machines themselves are far too unreliable for TOCs to entrust to them the provision of travel documents at unmanned stations, as clearly demonstrated by the worryingly high number of people who inform you that they could not retrieve said documents for various reasons. I know some may see it as a backward step, but I do wonder if it ought to be the case that all Advance tickets are issued by post, and must be booked in time for delivery to take place?

It is difficult not to feel that this problem is taking such a long time to resolve simply through a lack of any real urge to fix it.

 

[yorkie]

There are loads of things 'missing' from that Irish ticket - the ticket type, for a start. I'd have no idea if I had to stick to those trains or not!

As for everything on a sheet of A4 (Print@Home), it's already available with many TOCs but not for multi-TOC journeys, however they also require you specify a form of ID which you must bring with you, and given the potential to lose that ID (e.g. you may get your credit card replaced in that time) it's not worth the risk. Then there's the delay at barriers - not a problem until relatively recently but now the DfT insists on barriers even at InterCity platforms/stations. Wouldn't be a major problem if all barriers accepted them (some do, some don't) and if they were sufficiently staffed with polite, knowledgeable staff (some are, some aren't). No thanks!

 

[BestWestern]

As for everything on a sheet of A4 (Print@Home), it's already available with many TOCs but not for multi-TOC journeys, however they also require you specify a form of ID which you must bring with you, and given the potential to lose that ID (e.g. you may get your credit card replaced in that time) it's not worth the risk. Then there's the delay at barriers - not a problem until relatively recently but now the DfT insists on barriers even at InterCity platforms/stations. Wouldn't be a major problem if all barriers accepted them (some do, some don't) and if they were sufficiently staffed with polite, knowledgeable staff (some are, some aren't). No thanks!

I don't champion having tickets on A4 (or tickets that you print at home). My suggestion was that the travel tickets remain as they are, in ticket form, but everything else currently printed on ticket stock - reservation coupons, receipts, etc - be printed onto the one accompanying sheet of A4. Makes far more sense.

 

[W230]

As for those who are brave enough to collect their tickets from a TVM upon arrival, there would obviously need to be another plan here. It is a concern how many people fail to pick up all of their 'coupons', and then present to you a 'Collection Receipt' thinking that the one bit of card they saw tumble into the tray was their ticket, oblivious to the other bits they left behind. Do the machines make it clear enough, if indeed they point it out at all, that the passenger needs to collect X number of coupons? Why is there a need to produce the above mentioned 'Collection Receipt' (as opposed to a payment receipt), what purpose does it actually serve? If the person concerned has lost their actual ticket, the receipt will not convey them on a train, so what is it for? I have to say that I dislike the current model of collecting from TVM's. The machines themselves are far too unreliable for TOCs to entrust to them the provision of travel documents at unmanned stations, as clearly demonstrated by the worryingly high number of people who inform you that they could not retrieve said documents for various reasons. I know some may see it as a backward step, but I do wonder if it ought to be the case that all Advance tickets are issued by post, and must be booked in time for delivery to take place?

It is difficult not to feel that this problem is taking such a long time to resolve simply through a lack of any real urge to fix it.

Off on a tangent slightly but what recourse is there when you can't pick up your tickets from a TVM (due to it being faulty etc)? I've arrived at stations before finding the TVM's refusing to print off my ticket. On these occassions i've had time to queue at the ticket office and they've been printed off manually.

But what if there wasn't time for me to catch the respective booking? I'm assuming that this would be my problem for not arriving early enough and i'd have to buy another ticket? Though if there was no ticket office/it was closed and if my tickets wouldn't print off then there wouldn't be much I could do anyway!

 

[northwichcat]

It used to be one airline style ticket for tickets booked online or over the phone that contained everything. However, ticket barriers and TVMs were introduced and they were only compatible with standard ticket stock.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There are loads of things 'missing' from that Irish ticket - the ticket type, for a start. I'd have no idea if I had to stick to those trains or not!

Probably only confusing to foreign tourists in Ireland though.

There are only two types of Return tickets in Ireland:

Day Return - Valid for a return journey on the date shown on the ticket.
Open Return - Valid for one outward journey on the date shown on the ticket and for one return journey in the opposite direction within 30 days of the date shown on ticket.

As the date for the return part is different we can conclude it's an Open Return.

Relating to reservations:

an option for customers who are in possession of or purchasing on the day of travel a valid standard class ticket(s) such as Family Tickets, Day Return, Open Return, Weekly, Monthly, Annual, InterRail and Free Travel pass holders to reserve a seat on a service.

So nothing to say you can't travel on another service.

 

[Sammy h]

I don't know if any other rail staff saw it, but a few months ago we were sent a document which included several designs that ATOC are looking at to change the tickets.

They were quite clear and easy to read from what I remember. Much simpler than the current system.

 

[Bungle73]

It really is time ATOC etc tackled this. It is confusing, wasteful and ultimately completely needless to use so many ticket stock coupons for Advance purchase travellers. When checking tickets, you will come across numerous people on every train who are completely baffled, which then wastes time whilst you/they sort through what is actually required for inspection, and then explain which bits they need to retain for barriers/other trains etc.

One could suggest that a sensible option here, at least for those who receive their tickets through the post, would be to enclose the travel tickets in their current form and place all other information onto a simple sheet of A4 paper. This would be cheap, simple to produce and allow all the required details of reservations etc to be included, in plainer and easier to read form than what is currently produced on reservation coupons. There would be sufficient space on the paper (perhaps pre-printed on the rear) to enclose a handy 'user guide' to advise pax of what they need to know and do with their tickets and so on. This could be shown to the Guard along with the actual travel ticket itself.

As for those who are brave enough to collect their tickets from a TVM upon arrival, there would obviously need to be another plan here. It is a concern how many people fail to pick up all of their 'coupons', and then present to you a 'Collection Receipt' thinking that the one bit of card they saw tumble into the tray was their ticket, oblivious to the other bits they left behind. Do the machines make it clear enough, if indeed they point it out at all, that the passenger needs to collect X number of coupons? Why is there a need to produce the above mentioned 'Collection Receipt' (as opposed to a payment receipt), what purpose does it actually serve? If the person concerned has lost their actual ticket, the receipt will not convey them on a train, so what is it for? I have to say that I dislike the current model of collecting from TVM's. The machines themselves are far too unreliable for TOCs to entrust to them the provision of travel documents at unmanned stations, as clearly demonstrated by the worryingly high number of people who inform you that they could not retrieve said documents for various reasons. I know some may see it as a backward step, but I do wonder if it ought to be the case that all Advance tickets are issued by post, and must be booked in time for delivery to take place?

It is difficult not to feel that this problem is taking such a long time to resolve simply through a lack of any real urge to fix it.

The collection receipt isn't printed until the end, and the TVM will say "printing ticket x of x" ime.

My personal opinion is that this is a much smaller problem than is generally made out.

The only way to change what we have (short of spending billions on replacing equipment) is to either to make the text ridiculously small, or to miss out what could be important info.

And this business about tickets are "too complicated", sorry I but don't buy that. Maybe....and I know I'm going to be castigated for saying this, but I'm going to say it anyway....if you're mentally deficient in some way. It's perfectly clear on tickets what is what, if one can be bothered to read it; but some people would rather shove the responsibility onto someone else - a common problem these days.

 

[island]

It used to be one airline style ticket for tickets booked online or over the phone that contained everything. However, ticket barriers and TVMs were introduced and they were only compatible with standard ticket stock.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Probably only confusing to foreign tourists in Ireland though.

There are only two types of Return tickets in Ireland:



As the date for the return part is different we can conclude it's an Open Return.

Relating to reservations:


So nothing to say you can't travel on another service.

Rather unfortunately, the ticket depicted is equivalent to an Advance, only valid on the booked trains.

 

[LexyBoy]

Rather unfortunately, the ticket depicted is equivalent to an Advance, only valid on the booked trains.

Why can't our tickets be easy to understand like other countries'?

 

[bb21]

There simply is not enough room for a return ticket, with reservations and all other necessary details including discounts, to be printed on one coupon of credit card-sized ticketing stock.

Some of you may have seen a design I did a few months back which merged reservations with the ticket itself. There are limitations to what can be accommodated, for example, only a maximum of reservation for three trains can be printed on the same coupon, and outward and return portions still need to be separate (which I cannot see changing).

 

[northwichcat]

Rather unfortunately, the ticket depicted is equivalent to an Advance, only valid on the booked trains.

There isn't even any mention of Advance tickets or tickets restricted to a specific train on the tickets section of the Irish Rail website!

Although the ticket does say to refer to the terms on the back so it might say something there.

 

[snail]

Do the machines make it clear enough, if indeed they point it out at all, that the passenger needs to collect X number of coupons? Why is there a need to produce the above mentioned 'Collection Receipt' (as opposed to a payment receipt), what purpose does it actually serve?

I picked up some tickets from a Virgin machine today. There was a large dialog box on the screen saying 'Printing coupon 1 of 3' and a message to wait until all coupons were printed. The Collection Receipt tells you how many coupons there should be (but not that clearly as the number includes the receipt coupon itself).

 

[bb21]

I picked up some tickets from a Virgin machine today. There was a large dialog box on the screen saying 'Printing coupon 1 of 3' and a message to wait until all coupons were printed. The Collection Receipt tells you how many coupons there should be (but not that clearly as the number includes the receipt coupon itself).

This can often be a source of confusion as some machines do not count the collection receipt itself as a coupon in the total count.

 

[yorkie]

There isn't even any mention of Advance tickets or tickets restricted to a specific train on the tickets section of the Irish Rail website!

Although the ticket does say to refer to the terms on the back so it might say something there.

Right, I conclude that the Irish ticketing model is not one we should adopt. So it turned out to be a good example to demonstrate my point in a way!

On a more general note, having spoken with Island about the rules they have in Ireland, our system is infinitely more pro-customer than theirs, and I wouldn't want to use anything IE has done as a model of good example for us to follow here! (Which is probably unfair as they probably do some good things, but having heard some of their ticketing rules, it's put me off completely)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This can often be a source of confusion as some machines do not count the collection receipt itself as a coupon in the total count.

Indeed. Those machines effectively give you an extra, uncounted coupon which is the receipt. Someone who uses those machines may think they have a coupon missing if they use one of the other machines that does count the collection receipts.

 

[34D]

I do hope the OP sees my response, as this thread has degenerated into ideas for change. Part of the reason you have 2 or 3 coupons is to create a possible revenue stream from customers who forget one bit, in order that these customers can be PF'd or sold a new anytime ticket.

the other is the non-existent seat reservation from Southampton to Waterloo (ticket shows Coach * and Seats ***).

Do note that this coach* seats** coupon must be kept and shown on SWT otherwise you run the risk of a PF.

 

[island]

I do hope the OP sees my response, as this thread has degenerated into ideas for change. Part of the reason you have 2 or 3 coupons is to create a possible revenue stream from customers who forget one bit, in order that these customers can be PF'd or sold a new anytime ticket.

That's a bit cynical, isn't it?

[And advance ticket on the wrong train is a new walk-up ticket, not anytime, on most TOCs already and the remaining ones from next month.]

 

[WestCoast]

I know some may see it as a backward step, but I do wonder if it ought to be the case that all Advance tickets are issued by post, and must be booked in time for delivery to take place?

It is difficult not to feel that this problem is taking such a long time to resolve simply through a lack of any real urge to fix it.

I'd accept that, but only if Print@Home was also rolled out nationwide and could be secured against railcards (as well as other ID such as photograhic driving licenses). That way Advances could still be purchased close to the date of travel.

I certainly think that if the number of tickets issued can be reduced, they should. Advance tickets are often the cheapest tickets available, and yet they must cost the industry the most to issue! In the long-term, reducing the amount of coupons could not just help passengers, but also cut costs which would be particularly attractive as the industry strives to become leaner.

 

[snail]

Part of the reason you have 2 or 3 coupons is to create a possible revenue stream from customers who forget one bit, in order that these customers can be PF'd or sold a new anytime ticket.

I think that belongs in the same conspiracy theory bin as the idea that TOCs deliberately fail to sell tickets in order to prosecute passengers.

Is it time for a 'Railway Urban Myths' thread?

 

[ainsworth74]

Is it time for a 'Railway Urban Myths' thread?

We've already had one

 

[jon0844]

Then there's the delay at barriers - not a problem until relatively recently but now the DfT insists on barriers even at InterCity platforms/stations. Wouldn't be a major problem if all barriers accepted them (some do, some don't) and if they were sufficiently staffed with polite, knowledgeable staff (some are, some aren't). No thanks!

I wonder if tickets could feature QR codes, that can embed information for both staff and gates to read (like those at King's Cross) and passengers with their smartphone.

NFC will clearly take over eventually, but there's plenty of life left in the barcode - especially now Apple has made it a core feature on the new iOS devices (and similar software is becoming available for Android and other OSes).

You'd still need tickets printed with key information, much as it is now (for those without a smartphone), but you could have a more detailed itinerary (along with terms and conditions, reminders etc) that will be available on the smartphone/tablet for added convenience. It's not as if smartphones are only used by a certain demographic anymore.

 

[phil35]

I don't know if any other rail staff saw it, but a few months ago we were sent a document which included several designs that ATOC are looking at to change the tickets.

They were quite clear and easy to read from what I remember. Much simpler than the current system.

No chance you could post them on here?

 

[34D]

That's a bit cynical, isn't it?

[And advance ticket on the wrong train is a new walk-up ticket, not anytime, on most TOCs already and the remaining ones from next month.]

I think that belongs in the same conspiracy theory bin as the idea that TOCs deliberately fail to sell tickets in order to prosecute passengers.

Is it time for a 'Railway Urban Myths' thread?

Not at all. You'll find that all operators (in LU) factor in income raised by detecting ticketless travel (etc) into their business plans.

 

[Swirlz]

Not at all. You'll find that all operators (in LU) factor in income raised by detecting ticketless travel (etc) into their business plans.

Probably not in the way you are making out!

Reword your quote,

You'll find that all operators factor in income being LOST by detecting ticketless travel (etc) into their business plans.

I suspect the "factoring in" relates to anticipating a loss, rather than factoring in a profit made from ticket mistakes.

As much as I dislike some of the rail companies, I suspect that the financial loss from ticketless travel is greater than the amount they recover from people they "catch".

 

[34D]

Probably not in the way you are making out!

Reword your quote,

You'll find that all operators factor in income being LOST by detecting ticketless travel (etc) into their business plans.

I suspect the "factoring in" relates to anticipating a loss, rather than factoring in a profit made from ticket mistakes.

As much as I dislike some of the rail companies, I suspect that the financial loss from ticketless travel is greater than the amount they recover from people they "catch".

With respect, when I worked at LU I had an interview for a promotion (which I didn't get) in the TfL department which does 'financial models' for different income scenarios.

In the recruitment process, I did a bit of work on both a revised congestion charge model and a model around the 'non-ticket sales' income of LU, which (the bit I worked on anyway) included income from RPI stings, and also income from compensation for engineering overruns (etc) and doing passenger compensation for delays >15 mins.

Please do not be so naïve to assume that TOCs do not consider this non ticket sales income when assessing/predicting their overall income.

Also please don't be so rude to other posters who are sharing factual information with the forum.

Note: the TfL interview referenced above was several years ago, hence my feeling comfortable enough to mention it.