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America vs the world

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Pumbaa

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There's been a few threads floating around this very subject, and on the side, the issue of American people. Just thought I'd make an effort to pull them together and turn it into a small debate.

Three links of importance here:

Boycott Scotland has popped up a few times. I've emailed them, and some new content has been added. My contact was dealt with tersely, and I doubt anything more came of it. Despite the fact it was a small essay in length and style!

This is more interesting though. Written by an American, it poses a few searching questions. Thoughts?

However, these both pale in comparison to this. Written by Melanie Phillips, the well-known Daily Mail scaremonger, it highlights to me some very valid points, before ruining them with typical invalid reasoning and ridiculous exaggeration. More to the point, the message I think is wrong, and am very much hopeful that in turning to Europe, putting up barriers with the USA is very much the right thing to be doing.
 
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RailUK Forums

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this bit of the first link
The British, who ironically have themselves been victim to numerous acts of terrorism on their own soil, seem to have forgotten.
is completely wrong, we have not forgotten, we just don't care, the day after the 7/7 bombings, people were back on the underground/buses complaining that they are late as we usually do

edit: I don't mean to be disrespectful to the families of victims but I think that most of us can understand that
 

Swift-Deere

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Long live American a country with proper morals, values and beliefs who don't fall for the big green con, it about time people in UK stopped being anti American and realised that they are our best and closed allies
 

gordonthemoron

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Long live American a country with proper morals, values and beliefs who don't fall for the big green con, it about time people in UK stopped being anti American and realised that they are our best and closed allies

rubbish, USA does what is in the US's best interest, nobody else's
 

Old Timer

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Their is some very compelling evidence that Magrehi is in fact innocent, and this view is shared by some very senior members of the Scottish judiciary.

New evidence that was to be presented at his appeal would have been incontravertible and would have led to his release because it links in with the Syrians and with the Saudis.

The US has been very keen to retain the support of these regimes and and the whole Libya connection is said to be so tenuous as not to be capable of being used in support of any further incarceration.

It is said that any Appeal would have resulted in grave embarrassment to Labour, who have been implicated in the jailing of Magrehi for cynical Political reasons.

Anti Scottish / UK sentiment is being drummed up by those who refuse to accept the fact the the evidence, when reviewed rationally and unemotionally, leaves a great many questions unanswered, and indeed poses considerably more than Labour were happy to allow to be aired at a public Appeal, hence the return of Magrehi to Libya.

The USA also did not want any Appeal but could not prevent it, hence the fit of pique that Obama is suffering. Daily he is seen as not being the bright shing saviour of the US he was being portrayed as, but as he actually is, an intellectual lightweight who has modelled himself on Bliar, and who pretends to be everything to everyone. As the hard choices now come around, he is busy doing U-Turns on much of what he promised, the remainder being seen as just empty promises, which would never be filled.

Never has a US President lost such support in such a short time, hence why the Magrehi Affair is being played up.

Clearly it is indisputable that oil will be a factor as well, however the longer term security of UK oil supplies has to be taken into account as other Middle East Countries are either unreliable, unstable, or subject to anti-UK sentiment.

As was always predicted, relying on oil from the Former Soviet Union is an obviously high risk strategy bearing in mind the routes it takes to reach the UK and Russia's relationships with some of those Countries.

I would commend you to listen to what Dr. Jim Swire has to say about the whole issue, as well as reading the Paul Foot dossier published by Private Eye which is available on the Internet.
 

Pumbaa

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Long live American a country with proper morals, values and beliefs who don't fall for the big green con, it about time people in UK stopped being anti American and realised that they are our best and closed allies

You have got to be joking. First; proper morals, values and beliefs? I would agree that they are certainly very patriotic, and this is bred into them from an early age, but that's it. They are a deeply contradictory people, I would go so far as to say that Eastern seaboard folk are more alike to Europeans in values and beliefs than people from the Deep South. Morals - 60% Americans still believe that the death penalty is morally right. Throwing away what we think of it, it cannot be right that over 2/3 of the world has abolished the death penalty on moral grounds, yet America has left it to State discretion. Again I think it is no coincidence that the states that still have the death penalty are in the South/West as opposed to the East.


Beliefs; again a highly secular society, so juxtaposed with it's beliefs that it cannot possibly be described as a country with "right" beliefs. Particularly after 11th September 2001, the uprising of strong, pro-active Christian groups is alarming. Here, the country started shaking visibly when the BNP started winning seats. In the USA, no-one thought anything of it when similar orientated groups of religious background started gaining enough influence for politics.

That's True but so do all countries, but Americas own interests aren't to different from ours

Our interests now lie with Europe. America is on the brink of starting decline to a failed state. I'll post a link at the bottom of this post to the first instance of this. Too long has America "guided" NATO, WTO, UN etc. In the days of SAPs and following through PRPs (Structural Adjustment Packages, Poverty Reducing Policies) America always got the largest say. Poverty was tackled as the USA saw fit, with ridiculous strings attached. We are only just starting to get away with that. Madagascar was the best example, it worked there until the regime was destabilised, primarily from US interference with dependant goods deliberately forcing Madagascan goods out of the market (bananas and palm ie).

Honduras is another great example of US trying to flex its political muscle. Why? Keep the drug route open, keep allies in South America. They are only too happy to cause misery and strife in countries, so long as their own economic and social goals are met. Grr.

Their is some very compelling evidence that Magrehi is in fact innocent, and this view is shared by some very senior members of the Scottish judiciary.

New evidence that was to be presented at his appeal would have been incontravertible and would have led to his release because it links in with the Syrians and with the Saudis.

Absolutely. It is sad to think this is the reason why an innocent (probably) man was banged up, but the niceties of world politics aka America dictates, prevents true justice being pursued.

Anti Scottish / UK sentiment is being drummed up by those who refuse to accept the fact the the evidence, when reviewed rationally and unemotionally, leaves a great many questions unanswered, and indeed poses considerably more than Labour were happy to allow to be aired at a public Appeal, hence the return of Magrehi to Libya.

Most use it as a convenient explanation, as they believe that there has to be an explanation for what occurred. It is sad to think that they cannot accept that they may never get an explanation, and will blindly accuse a person of the crime where it is not explicitly detailed that he committed the crime, and that there is enough evidence to mount a case defending him.

Never has a US President lost such support in such a short time, hence why the Magrehi Affair is being played up.

Spot-on. And still people refuse to admit this. He will be their Blair, without a shadow of a doubt.

I would commend you to listen to what Dr. Jim Swire has to say about the whole issue, as well as reading the Paul Foot dossier published by Private Eye which is available on the Internet.

A superb piece may I add.

In follow-up to earlier, the mean average of US elderly in poverty stands at a staggering 41%. Under 18 is slightly better at 32%, with the adult range standing in just under 15% (2006 figures ie pre-recession). That is staggering, especially for a country that pretends to be so rich, "land of the free" and above all the land for anyman to succeed in. If you're rich or clever, you will go far in USA. If not, forget it.

Finally, this. A vivid portrayal of what most of the USA may soon become.
 

Swift-Deere

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You have got to be joking. First; proper morals, values and beliefs? I would agree that they are certainly very patriotic, and this is bred into them from an early age, but that's it. They are a deeply contradictory people, I would go so far as to say that Eastern seaboard folk are more alike to Europeans in values and beliefs than people from the Deep South. Morals - 60% Americans still believe that the death penalty is morally right. Throwing away what we think of it, it cannot be right that over 2/3 of the world has abolished the death penalty on moral grounds, yet America has left it to State discretion. Again I think it is no coincidence that the states that still have the death penalty are in the South/West as opposed to the East.


Beliefs; again a highly secular society, so juxtaposed with it's beliefs that it cannot possibly be described as a country with "right" beliefs. Particularly after 11th September 2001, the uprising of strong, pro-active Christian groups is alarming. Here, the country started shaking visibly when the BNP started winning seats. In the USA, no-one thought anything of it when similar orientated groups of religious background started gaining enough influence for politics.
I think the rural south and west are more "American" than the East which as you say is more "european"

i wouldn't say that the groups you speak of are the same as the nazi BNP as American people and politic typically avoid far orientated ideologies such as communism and facism both of which are a threat to the world as whole the best political system is a conservative and traditional society(in my opinion feel free to disagree and criticise)
 

Dai.

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Honestly on this matter I think it's a case of - Stop moaning and fix the world instead of bickering about someone who (going by OT's post) would have been released anyway, the governments of the world have more important things to worry about than one man - Recession and the Global debt being the main one of those issues.

If our government spent as much time fixing the country as they did arguing we'd be in a whole better place right now.
 

thefab444

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Boycott Scotland said:
You have shown to the international community that your government and the United Kingdom as a whole will stop at nothing to pursue the neverending and relentless acquisition of oil revenues.

Oh yes, and the USA has never done that?
 

Darandio

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Oh yes, and the USA has never done that?

Agreed CeliaDrummond, I am quoting you for the simple reason that I cannot find the original Boycott Scotland post. Not wanting to rise to it because it is quite plainly a wind up but come on, the Iraq war was about removing Saddam Hussein?
 

Aussie_Rail

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The USA is the most powerful country, they can do what they want...I guess they earned it
Well that's set to change, the day that they play second fiddle to someone else (probably China) is not too far off, and when they loose that dominance they will then become has beens and that egotistic self absorbed nosyness smile will be wiped from their face and they won't know whats happened to them.
 

me123

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Boycott Scotland is a joke. There's not even any evidence it's doing anything. I find it laughable that we can't make a controversial decision, yet they make controversial decisions constantly and the rest of us have to nod along. It goes to show how egotistic Americans are, thinking that they have control over everything.

And they go on about us being allies? Well, one minute we're allies. We're allies when it suits them for us to be allies. When it comes to healthcare, however, we're communists. And, he should really learn how devolution works before criticising our politicians. And why should we listen to a country that is still inherently racist? And let's have a good laugh at his "terrorist-free" alternative to Scotland; Ireland.

The author of the site clearly has a personal vendetta against us; the Scottish and the British. He pretty much epitomises the stereotypical American, and the irony is actually pretty funny.

Distancing ourselves from the US can only be a good thing.
 

Swift-Deere

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Its no wonder the Americans are angry


A mass murdered and terrorist was freed...what happened to justice for all the American killed on the aircraft and scots killed in lochabie

but a Boycott of Scotland and UK is a bad idea The US and the UK should unite against the tyranny of the UK government and the terrorists who work to bring down the ideas and beliefs of Weston society!!!
 

Pumbaa

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Its no wonder the Americans are angry


A mass murdered and terrorist was freed...what happened to justice for all the American killed on the aircraft and scots killed in lochabie

Because it is very possible that it wasn't him! People with any sense of rationality would be happy to look at the evidence in hand, and pull through a thorough investigation. Unfortunately this will never happen now, thanks to his framing in the first place that was brought about indirectly by the actions of the USA. The fact that Governments have decided to release him indicates, to me at least, that there was more to say that they are not prepared to tell the public, and as such there is no reason why they should keep an innocent person in jail.

People crying out for justice only want to see someone nailed to a cross, they don't care who it is. Surely that is more wrong?
 

90019

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Its no wonder the Americans are angry

We annoyed the Americans :D

A mass murdered and terrorist was freed...what happened to justice for all the American killed on the aircraft and scots killed in lochabie

It may not actually have been him, despite the way the Americans always feel a need to blame someone, often the first and most convenient person possible (It's why there's the rediculous blame culture, that we have unfortunately inherited), it doesn't mean that they've got the right person.
All of the evidence needs to be looked over again properly, without America being allowed to have any influence or to intervene at all.
 

Swift-Deere

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A review of the evidence would be a good idea but we shouldn't have let the current suspect go until (or indeed if) his innocence can be proven
 

me123

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The Americans insisted he be punished under the full force of the Scottish Justice System. The Scottish Justice System calls for the Justice Secretary of Scotland to consider any request for compassionate release, without considering economic or international issues. They were happy as long as he was in jail here, but once that part of the Scottish Justice System came into play, they got mad and threw a little temper tantrum.

They have no concept of compassion in their justice system; it is an alien concept to most Americans who are a rather bloody-thirsty people. But I believe it rather hypocritical that one moment they want him tried under Scots Law and then, once this section of the law comes into force, they don't like it. It's only fair that his application was considered with the same open mind as one would put to any other application.
 

poshbakerloo

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Well that's set to change, the day that they play second fiddle to someone else (probably China) is not too far off, and when they loose that dominance they will then become has beens and that egotistic self absorbed nosyness smile will be wiped from their face and they won't know whats happened to them.

I don't think China will take over. A comunist country lacking in freedom is never good. Although they seem to be doing 'alright' so far...
 

Aussie_Rail

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I don't think China will take over. A communist country lacking in freedom is never good. Although they seem to be doing 'alright' so far...
Well I name China as they are one place that comes to mind that are doing pretty well for themselves and that could take over from the US, one good thing about China is that they haven't practicably stuck their big nose into affairs that do not concern them like the US have, nor have they invaded places based on complete and utter bull ****.
 

Mojo

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I think America is slightly afraid of Europe as well, heard from quite a few places that some of the organisations campaigning for an Irish "no" vote received a bit of money from the other side of the pond.
 

Old Timer

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A review of the evidence would be a good idea but we shouldn't have let the current suspect go until (or indeed if) his innocence can be proven
You may want to look at this website Lockerbietruth.

You may also want to read the Private Eye / Paul Foot investigation article, which is downloadable from the Private Eye website.

As the years have gone by, it has become more and more apparant that there is much that has not been released about this story, and when senior Scottish Judiciary are now talking openly of an Appeal having been successful, you need to start to review your own beliefs.

The US administrations have fed and perpetuated a number of myths over this and other issues over the years, and in true US style, they quickly turn on anyone that may reach the truth, in this case by a very well orchestrated campaign.

Whilst I do not have reason to dislike the US, I am mindful that at all times the US (like the French) protects its own interests absolutely, even if this is against the interests of its own allies and friends.

We saw this with the Nuclear Bomb development during WW2, and I would particularly commend to you a book by Clive Ponting which is called as far as I can recall called "1940 : Fact and Fiction" (or similar title name).
 

Old Timer

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I am not sure any has been posted here ?

Unfortunately the Left in the UK and the USA have managed to ensure that any debate involving different Countries and Cultures is quickly labelled as Racism. It always happens, its just the time it takes someone to come on a Forum and make the post :roll::roll:

Racism is an in-built human trait.

If you really want to see it in full flow then you should go to the Middle East, Isreal, North Africa, Central Africa, Zimbabwe.
 
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