"Alternatively" Fuelled Buses

[tbtc]

The news that both Stagecoach and First are applying for funding through the Ultra Low Emission Bus Scheme - both for Manchester - has been discussed on the Forum recently.

But today I saw the news that Lothian are officially admitting to replacing their "electric" double deckers with conventionally engined buses:

ENERGY-SAVING hybrid buses have been withdrawn from a busy city route because the Capital’s hills were proving too much for them. The fleet of 15 electric-diesel double-deckers, introduced on Lothian Buses’ No 10 route from Western Harbour to Bonaly and Torphin seven years ago, were recently withdrawn and replaced by diesel buses to the dismay of some passengers.

Sources in the company said the hybrid buses were having “battery issues” with the “hilly” route and most are now being retrofitted with diesel engines

(https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman....friendly-fleet-after-battery-issues-1-4797812)

The "hybrid" E400Hs that Stagecoach run in Sheffield are being painted into "conventions' beachball colours with "conventional" diesel engines - Sheffield's hills apparently being too tough for them.

There have been various Great New Hopes - the "gas" buses in Sunderland, the "poo" buses in Bristol - the latest chatter is about the "electric" buses in Harrogate - but, whilst we've had threads about the alternatives to diesel trains (battery powered, further electrification etc), I don't think we've had one thread for discussing bus fuel recently (?).

So, what do you reckon the order books will be like in five years time? Will 95% of orders in 2023 be for conventional diesel engines (admittedly with better emissions) or do you think that some form of hybrid/ gas/ poo/ electricity will become mainstream (so mainstream that they don't require special subsidies to order)?

 

[carlberry]

The news that both Stagecoach and First are applying for funding through the Ultra Low Emission Bus Scheme - both for Manchester - has been discussed on the Forum recently.

But today I saw the news that Lothian are officially admitting to replacing their "electric" double deckers with conventionally engined buses:



(https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman....friendly-fleet-after-battery-issues-1-4797812)

The "hybrid" E400Hs that Stagecoach run in Sheffield are being painted into "conventions' beachball colours with "conventional" diesel engines - Sheffield's hills apparently being too tough for them.

There have been various Great New Hopes - the "gas" buses in Sunderland, the "poo" buses in Bristol - the latest chatter is about the "electric" buses in Harrogate - but, whilst we've had threads about the alternatives to diesel trains (battery powered, further electrification etc), I don't think we've had one thread for discussing bus fuel recently (?).

So, what do you reckon the order books will be like in five years time? Will 95% of orders in 2023 be for conventional diesel engines (admittedly with better emissions) or do you think that some form of hybrid/ gas/ poo/ electricity will become mainstream (so mainstream that they don't require special subsidies to order)?

The problem is the first generation of anything is always going to have a short life and hybrid technology, at present, still dosent really offer a great advantage. They also don't like hills (Bath's examples are going the same way for the same reason). These early hybrids are likely to be less clean than a Euro 6 engine and, I suspect, even a brand new hybrid isn't going to be that much better. Straight electric is an obvious better choice and (as long as any advances are scaled up for heavy vehicle use) the push to electric cars should mean battery technology should improve. However the country will have a real issue generating enough electricity to power all the vehicles we're supposed to be buying.
So 5 years still mostly diesel but with some operators buying electric or gas for normal operation (i.e. not grant assisted), 10 years mostly electric if the batteries have been improved enough.

 

[90019]

Lothian's hybrids coped fine on hills (and the 3 remaining ones still do), but after 7 years the batteries have worn out and converting them to diesel only is cheaper than replacement batteries.

The diesel conversions have been removed from the 10 because they're useless.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Stagecoach NScotland have the same issues with the Enviro350Hs.

With the Enviro Hybrids the engines are at max RPM pretty much all of the time. As such they wear out faster and they're not all that economical. Apparently the standard diesel Enviro 300s are more economical than the Diesel-Electric Hybrid Enviro 350Hs.

Battery issues are very believable, they're currently having issues with 29006 here which has not seen a full day of service since at least May. It just randomly cuts out and they can't work out why. 29008 is also currently VOR.

In addition to that the Enviro350Hs here are nicknamed the "Big Green Vibrators" due to the sheer vibrations through the bus that the engine produces. A number of older drivers also refuse to drive them now due to getting bad backs which is why the 59 (route they're solely allocated to) often gets non-branded buses now. Quite often you can hear the vibrations on the bus before you can see the bus!

The only good points about the Enviro350Hybirds is the sheer speed of them, pulling away, even up a hill they fly off with no issues at all.

 

[GusB]

I've read in numerous books over the years that various operators considered a larger engine, lightly-stressed, to be more economical than a smaller one working harder. Bring back the 6LXB!

On a more serious note, though - I know that it's possible to get more power out of a much smaller diesel than would have been possible back in my dinosaur days, but hybrids tend to have even smaller engines. I presume that if the batteries can't cope, there's more chance of one of these engines failing as a result of having to compensate. This could just be complete wibble on my part, so I'm happy to be corrected.

Poo, gas etc., has been mentioned so far, but no mention of hydrogen so far. I only know of the trial in Aberdeen - how is that particular project going, and have there been any other similar experiments elsewhere in the country?

 

[Gingerbus1991]

Lothian's hybrids coped fine on hills (and the 3 remaining ones still do), but after 7 years the batteries have worn out and converting them to diesel only is cheaper than replacement batteries.

The diesel conversions have been removed from the 10 because they're useless.

I wonder then how the B5LH’s will cope after 7 years!

 

[Gingerbus1991]

I've read in numerous books over the years that various operators considered a larger engine, lightly-stressed, to be more economical than a smaller one working harder. Bring back the 6LXB!
country?

On a more serious note, though - I know that it's possible to get more power out of a much smaller diesel than would have been possible back in my dinosaur days, but hybrids tend to have even smaller engines. I presume that if the batteries can't cope, there's more chance of one of these engines failing as a result of having to compensate. This could just be complete wibble on my part, so I'm happy to be corrected.

Poo, gas etc., has been mentioned so far, but no mention of hydrogen so far. I only know of the trial in Aberdeen - how is that particular project going, and have there been any other similar experiments elsewhere in the country?

There are downsides to both large and small engines depending on the operation area, smaller engines working harder even around a city can maintain a higher engine temp meaning the emission system AdBlue can convert nitrogen oxides more effectively ergo lower emissions , higher engine temp can help The DPF passively burn off soot more effectively and kept free from blockages and active regens for longer periods, the opposite could be said for a lightly-stressed larger engines such as scania’s 9.3 5-cylinder engine, this would be a better choice for a average higher running speed where the engine can be kept at a higher speed to help increase engine temp, but naturally a 4-cylinder verses a 5 or 6 cylinder engine will naturally be better on fuel at idle where a city dwelling bus will spend its time crawling most often.
Of course Cummins now offer Stop/Start to help reduce emissions and increase fuel economy.

I have read that Mercedes, Volvo and Cummins are all happy with the robustness of there respective 4-cylinder engines, thats to be seen as the volvo and daimler 4-cylinders have only been around for a couple of years, still the 4.5ltr cummins engine however within the enviro 350h singles and 400h doubles only serves to provide the electricity to charge the batteries and is not physically connecting to drive wheels via the differential, this type of hybrid is a “series” hybrid if you like, the engine doesnt bare the brunt of pushing the vehicle the electric motor does hence why there packing up especially when used on hilly routes, batteries naturally degrade over time anyways in any hybrid, the electric motor youll find in a series hybrid is large and the batteries usually a considerable size.
Series-hybrids can accelorate better than parallel-hybrids though because the elcetric motors have instance and consistent power delivery without conventional stepped gear changes.
The engine used here should actually last pretty well.

Volvo’s B5LH hybrid is a “Parallel” hybrid where “both” the engine and electric motor are connected to the drive wheel via the gearbox, whilst parallel hybrids have smaller electric motors the engine also helps physically push the bus meaning the electric motor isnt as stressed hence I would think more reliable and durable, and also the batteries usually being smaller as there is a lower electricity requirement means batteries will be cheaper to replace.
But the engine may not last as long as it is helping out even if not at full tilt.

Alternative fuels! not happy about them to be honest, dirty diesel fan here!
Hydrogen, i’m only aware of Aberdeen councils project.
Reading Buses and Nottingham City Transport however have Scania Chassid CNG buses, or gas buses in other words.
But the downside being that depot structure has to change as you need a gas feed to fill the tanks on the bus which can be expensive to install in the depot ground, it also takes up alot of space within those grounds.

All forms of alternative fuels quite frankly have there drawbacks

Best stick to a Euro 6 Diesel for the time being!

 

[alangla]

I'm surprised that CNG hasn't become more common in this country. If you visit the US, buses in many of their cities are CNG powered and it seems a lot more common to have CNG/trolleybus hybrids rather than diesel/battery. In saying that, bus systems in the US are basically controlled by the local council, so it's easier to take a strategic view on the provision of trolley wires etc

 

[InterCity:125]

In Bristol there are electric and biogas buses but not on a large scale.

 

[radamfi]

There shouldn't really be any interest in hybrid buses any more now that fully electric is the thing now. Other European countries haven't gone for hybrids to the extent that Britain has and it makes sense now to go straight from traditional diesel to fully electric.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There shouldn't really be any interest in hybrid buses any more now that we fully electric is the thing now. Other European countries haven't gone for hybrids to the extent that Britain has and it makes sense now to go straight from traditional diesel to fully electric.

I think hybrid has more of a case for cars in the short term, where you could run on (and charge from) petrol when on the motorway or country lanes away from where the little bit of pollution will make much difference, but wholly on electricity in towns and cities where pollution at the point of use is a massive issue.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

In Bristol there are electric and biogas buses but not on a large scale.

Not yet but First have a GBF supported order for 110 gas buses to arrive 2019-21 though the third metrobus service (to be operated by CT Plus) will also be gas and starts at the beginning of 2019.

I'm surprised that CNG hasn't become more common in this country. If you visit the US, buses in many of their cities are CNG powered and it seems a lot more common to have CNG/trolleybus hybrids rather than diesel/battery. In saying that, bus systems in the US are basically controlled by the local council, so it's easier to take a strategic view on the provision of trolley wires etc

All about money. In many places around the world, services are either provided directly by the local authorities or are provided by an operator under contract that is paid a management fee.

In the UK (with the exception of London), the burden has always been borne by the operator. Therefore, unless additional funding comes from local or central government, the operator has the choice to use conventional or pay the extra. Given how the technology has been formative, with its attendant cost and reliability issues, that has seen conventional diesel continue to be employed by ALL aspects of the road transport industry.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

It's interesting that companies are replacing hybrid drivelines with straight diesel at the 7 yr mark because it's cheaper than replacing the batteries... isn't that what was predicted when hybrid vehicles started to be built?

We've been trying to get battery buses to work for as long as there has been petrol/ diesel vehicles... isn't it about time that we admitted that the technology will never be good enough for large scale, economical operation? And that's not even considering the environmental cost of making all these batteries.... ever wondered where all this lithium etc is coming from? it isn't magicked out of thin air you know....

The ONLY way forward that I can see is for PROPER trolleybuses to start being considered... so there'll be the "visual pollution" of all those wires.... better than the invisible pollution of all those diesel fumes isn't it?

 

[tbtc]

It's interesting that companies are replacing hybrid drivelines with straight diesel at the 7 yr mark because it's cheaper than replacing the batteries... isn't that what was predicted when hybrid vehicles started to be built?

We've been trying to get battery buses to work for as long as there has been petrol/ diesel vehicles... isn't it about time that we admitted that the technology will never be good enough for large scale, economical operation? And that's not even considering the environmental cost of making all these batteries.... ever wondered where all this lithium etc is coming from? it isn't magicked out of thin air you know....

That ties in to what I was thinking when setting up the thread - there's a lot of positive publicity when these new "alternatively fuelled" vehicles are launched - some good PR about the gas/ poo/ electricity etc - but they don't seem to last long enough to warrant the investment commercially so the industry is stuck in a cycle of getting public sector funding for the snazzy schemes - so the gas/ poo/ electric buses end up like First's vanity schemes (ftr etc) - great when running on flagship routes for the first five years but increasingly awkward/expensive to keep on the road after that.

Obviously we are building buses today that might still be used in twenty years time, so it takes a lot of predicting, I'm not saying we shouldn't *try* these new fuels, I'm just frustrated that we haven't found something that works over the lifetime of a bus.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

That ties in to what I was thinking when setting up the thread - there's a lot of positive publicity when these new "alternatively fuelled" vehicles are launched - some good PR about the gas/ poo/ electricity etc - but they don't seem to last long enough to warrant the investment commercially so the industry is stuck in a cycle of getting public sector funding for the snazzy schemes - so the gas/ poo/ electric buses end up like First's vanity schemes (ftr etc) - great when running on flagship routes for the first five years but increasingly awkward/expensive to keep on the road after that.

Obviously we are building buses today that might still be used in twenty years time, so it takes a lot of predicting, I'm not saying we shouldn't *try* these new fuels, I'm just frustrated that we haven't found something that works over the lifetime of a bus.

The vanity issue certainly seems to be a prevelant thing not just here but in Belfast as well with Translinks Glider bendy bus, I always wondered what was wrong with paying less for money for nicer standard buses.

 

[radamfi]

We've been trying to get battery buses to work for as long as there has been petrol/ diesel vehicles... isn't it about time that we admitted that the technology will never be good enough for large scale, economical operation?

Shenzhen (population 12+ million) has converted its entire fleet of over 16,000 to battery buses. BYD have been rolling out electric buses in many parts of the world including London for a number of years now. A fair proportion of the fleet south of Amsterdam and in Eindhoven are now operated by pantograph charged battery buses. There is an electric Citaro coming out for which Hamburg has already placed an order. There does seem to be a momentum towards fully electric buses and I can't see that being rolled back to standard diesel buses.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Shenzhen (population 12+ million) has converted its entire fleet of over 16,000 to battery buses. BYD have been rolling out electric buses in many parts of the world including London for a number of years now. A fair proportion of the fleet south of Amsterdam and in Eindhoven are now operated by pantograph charged battery buses. There is an electric Citaro coming out for which Hamburg has already placed an order. There does seem to be a momentum towards fully electric buses and I can't see that being rolled back to standard diesel buses.

and what will happen to all these vehicles in 7 yrs time when the battery packs need replacing and it is uneconomic to do so? what happens when all these batteries deplete available stocks of lithium thereby exponentially increasing the costs of new batteries {apparently lithium is already in very short supply}

 

[InterCity:125]

Not yet but First have a GBF supported order for 110 gas buses to arrive 2019-21 though the third metrobus service (to be operated by CT Plus) will also be gas and starts at the beginning of 2019.

Here you are:

 

[radamfi]

and what will happen to all these vehicles in 7 yrs time when the battery packs need replacing and it is uneconomic to do so? what happens when all these batteries deplete available stocks of lithium thereby exponentially increasing the costs of new batteries {apparently lithium is already in very short supply}

If you are worried about buses not being able to be powered electrically in the future, what about the vastly more numerous cars in the world?

 

[Jordan Adam]

I've read in numerous books over the years that various operators considered a larger engine, lightly-stressed, to be more economical than a smaller one working harder. Bring back the 6LXB!

On a more serious note, though - I know that it's possible to get more power out of a much smaller diesel than would have been possible back in my dinosaur days, but hybrids tend to have even smaller engines. I presume that if the batteries can't cope, there's more chance of one of these engines failing as a result of having to compensate. This could just be complete wibble on my part, so I'm happy to be corrected.

Poo, gas etc., has been mentioned so far, but no mention of hydrogen so far. I only know of the trial in Aberdeen - how is that particular project going, and have there been any other similar experiments elsewhere in the country?

There are downsides to both large and small engines depending on the operation area, smaller engines working harder even around a city can maintain a higher engine temp meaning the emission system AdBlue can convert nitrogen oxides more effectively ergo lower emissions , higher engine temp can help The DPF passively burn off soot more effectively and kept free from blockages and active regens for longer periods, the opposite could be said for a lightly-stressed larger engines such as scania’s 9.3 5-cylinder engine, this would be a better choice for a average higher running speed where the engine can be kept at a higher speed to help increase engine temp, but naturally a 4-cylinder verses a 5 or 6 cylinder engine will naturally be better on fuel at idle where a city dwelling bus will spend its time crawling most often.
Of course Cummins now offer Stop/Start to help reduce emissions and increase fuel economy.

I have read that Mercedes, Volvo and Cummins are all happy with the robustness of there respective 4-cylinder engines, thats to be seen as the volvo and daimler 4-cylinders have only been around for a couple of years, still the 4.5ltr cummins engine however within the enviro 350h singles and 400h doubles only serves to provide the electricity to charge the batteries and is not physically connecting to drive wheels via the differential, this type of hybrid is a “series” hybrid if you like, the engine doesnt bare the brunt of pushing the vehicle the electric motor does hence why there packing up especially when used on hilly routes, batteries naturally degrade over time anyways in any hybrid, the electric motor youll find in a series hybrid is large and the batteries usually a considerable size.
Series-hybrids can accelorate better than parallel-hybrids though because the elcetric motors have instance and consistent power delivery without conventional stepped gear changes.
The engine used here should actually last pretty well.

Volvo’s B5LH hybrid is a “Parallel” hybrid where “both” the engine and electric motor are connected to the drive wheel via the gearbox, whilst parallel hybrids have smaller electric motors the engine also helps physically push the bus meaning the electric motor isnt as stressed hence I would think more reliable and durable, and also the batteries usually being smaller as there is a lower electricity requirement means batteries will be cheaper to replace.
But the engine may not last as long as it is helping out even if not at full tilt.

Alternative fuels! not happy about them to be honest, dirty diesel fan here!
Hydrogen, i’m only aware of Aberdeen councils project.
Reading Buses and Nottingham City Transport however have Scania Chassid CNG buses, or gas buses in other words.
But the downside being that depot structure has to change as you need a gas feed to fill the tanks on the bus which can be expensive to install in the depot ground, it also takes up alot of space within those grounds.

All forms of alternative fuels quite frankly have there drawbacks

Best stick to a Euro 6 Diesel for the time being!

I can't comment on the E400Hs but on the Enviro350H's the engines tend to last about 2/3 years before they start to really wear out and cause the whole vehicle to violently vibrate.

The Hydrogen Project in Aberdeen is going very very very well... Stagecoach controllers try to avoid allocating their A330s as they're far too unreliable (not that anything in the Stagecoach fleet here is reliable. And First lately have only had 1 out at a time and it seems to be only once or twice a week that one makes it out. There was a period a little while back where all 10 were VOR for different issues.

Stagecoach believe that when stationary they may be leaking gas.

First Aberdeen are alleged to be due a batch of between 10 and 20 Hydrogen powered Streetdecks over the next 2 years.

 

[AJW12]

I'm not sure whether the Volvo Hybrid range just age badly, or whether they've just improved their offering over time. The early B5LHs in Leeds and ones I used in London last week are really not very pleasant. They vibrate a lot, make quite a lot of noise and they basically move off from the bus stop but literally slow down to being stationary until the diesel engine kicks in. Though the newer B5LHs both in Edinburgh and London I find to be a smooth and enjoyable ride. Likewise the single deck Hybrids that Lothian have - the newer 64-plate ones are fairly good (apart from the damn seats!) but a trip on one of the first 13-plate ones and the ride was noisy and just wholly unpleasant - I was thankful I only used it on their route 6 which is only 15mins or so end to end.

I think the problem with vehicles like these is that they're so recently introduced that they've not yet had the time to be refined yet and it takes the vehicles to age so that they can be observed doing so and then the relevant modifications can be made. I think there might also be a certain fault of the operator that in the early years I don't think passenger comfort was really taken into consideration. It was a case of "LOOK THIS IS HYBRID", all that matters is this is Hybrid etc.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

I can't comment on the E400Hs but on the Enviro350H's the engines tend to last about 2/3 years before they start to really wear out and cause the whole vehicle to violently vibrate.

The Hydrogen Project in Aberdeen is going very very very well... Stagecoach controllers try to avoid allocating their A330s as they're far too unreliable (not that anything in the Stagecoach fleet here is reliable. And First lately have only had 1 out at a time and it seems to be only once or twice a week that one makes it out. There was a period a little while back where all 10 were VOR for different issues.

Stagecoach believe that when stationary they may be leaking gas.

First Aberdeen are alleged to be due a batch of between 10 and 20 Hydrogen powered Streetdecks over the next 2 years.

I will be interested to see how londons latest 400H CITYS fair in a few years time, they’ve started receiving new ones that have ultra-capacitors instead of batteries so there isn’t any batteries to wear out.