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Alternative to IEP Program

What option would you go for?

  • 1

    Votes: 10 33.3%
  • 2

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 3

    Votes: 8 26.7%
  • 4

    Votes: 4 13.3%
  • 5

    Votes: 1 3.3%
  • 6

    Votes: 6 20.0%
  • 7

    Votes: 1 3.3%

  • Total voters
    30
  • Poll closed .
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asylumxl

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Let's put this dead weight thing into perspective.

A 220 has 4 carriages, and weighs 185.6 tonnes according to Wikipedia. 4 Cummins QSK19 only weigh 7.892 tonnes wet (taken from Cummins website).

That is only 4.25% of the trains overall weight. So I don't imagine that some smaller, less powerful engines, will have a significant impact on performance.
 
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WatcherZero

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Yes the governments already considered and ruled out locomotives to take the trains beyond the wires. To me Bi-Mode will rise or fall on if the APU's could be easily removed with no more than a couple of days in the shop when they arent needed.
 

Daimler

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As for locomotive haulage of EMUs off the wires, if you read earlier in the post you will see that this was considered but it is believed one reason for rejection is the lack of capability for building domestic locomotives.

Huh? If it goes to Hitachi we're not building a domestic 'train' either!

Let's put this dead weight thing into perspective.

A 220 has 4 carriages, and weighs 185.6 tonnes according to Wikipedia. 4 Cummins QSK19 only weigh 7.892 tonnes wet (taken from Cummins website).

That is only 4.25% of the trains overall weight. So I don't imagine that some smaller, less powerful engines, will have a significant impact on performance.

I fear you've forgotten about the dead weight of several thousand litres of fuel.

That said, I would be very interested to see the extent to which it affects fuel consumption - I'm not sure if this has been properly studied. I'm assuming that the effect is considerable, based on the lengths to which car & train manufacturers go to reduce weight even to quite a modest extent, but, as I said, I would be interested to know just what the effect is.

Furthermore, the idea of fitting the dratted bi-mode with 'smaller, less powerful' engines, means it won't be much good should it need to operate on a fast route on diesel power (or indeed, if its 'electric capability' fails, to keep out of the way of other trains once it's got moving again).
 
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Zoe

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Huh? If it goes to Hitachi we're not building a domestic 'train' either!
Not sure they'd have capability to build a GB domestic locomotive though. There certainly wouldn't be one available off the shelf.
 

Hydro

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As for locomotive haulage of EMUs off the wires, if you read earlier in the post you will see that this was considered but it is believed one reason for rejection is that lack of building of domestic locomotives.


What a paper thin excuse from the DfT. I think we have to come to terms with the fact that IEP will be an awful design procured solely to offload surplus Eurofighters to the Japanese.

The locos don't even need to be part of the IEP "plan". Just buy them seperately and specify they need to be compatible with IEP. 33/1's, 73's and SR EMU's weren't built by one company or in the same place.

Not sure they'd have capability to build a GB domestic locomotive though. There certainly wouldn't be one available off the shelf.


Hitachi don't need to. Just buy them seperately and if they happen to work with IEP then "oh well, what a happy coincidence!". You could get the Spanish to knock up some more 67's with IEP compatibility.
 

asylumxl

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I fear you've forgotten about the dead weight of several thousand litres of fuel.

That said, I would be very interested to see the extent to which it affects fuel consumption - I'm not sure if this has been properly studied. I'm assuming that the effect is considerable, based on the lengths to which car & train manufacturers go to reduce weight even to quite a modest extent, but, as I said, I would be interested to know just what the effect is.

Furthermore, the idea of fitting the dratted bi-mode with 'smaller, less powerful' engines, means it won't be much good should it need to operate on a fast route on diesel power (or indeed, if its 'electric capability' fails, to keep out of the way of other trains once it's got moving again).

I haven't. But a locomotive would need to be filled with fuel too, and would have a higher axle load, so what difference does it make?

I'd imagine over a long time it would make a reasonable difference, but when looked at in percentage terms I can't see it being that large.

What fast routes can you think of that it'd need to operate? The Berks and Hants? It's hardly a 125mph mainline with immense numbers of trains per hour. Same goes for the line to Swansea.
 

Zoe

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What fast routes can you think of that it'd need to operate? The Berks and Hants? It's hardly a 125mph mainline with immense numbers of trains per hour. Same goes for the line to Swansea.
The Berks and Hants though does have 110 mph sections and it may well be that due to this reason the IEP can't be used for services to Devon & Cornwall if the top speed when running on diesel is only 90 or 100 mph. For this reason HSTs are going to have to remain in service.
 

Daimler

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I haven't. But a locomotive would need to be filled with fuel too, and would have a higher axle load, so what difference does it make?

All the difference! The locomotive isn't being hauled around 'dead' under the wires, whereas the underfloor engines and fuel are.

asylumxl said:
What fast routes can you think of that it'd need to operate? The Berks and Hants? It's hardly a 125mph mainline with immense numbers of trains per hour. Same goes for the line to Swansea.

In order to operate at 100mph/110mph, I think the engines will need to be pretty powerful on this train. In order to stop the extra weight from making a 'reasonable difference' over a 'long time', I think that the engine(s) fitted to the bi-mode would need to be unusually small - a 'get you home' design, if you will.

The Berks and Hants though does have 110 mph sections and it may well be that due to this reason the IEP can't be used for services to Devon & Cornwall if the top speed when running on diesel is only 90 or 100 mph. For this reason HSTs are going to have to remain in service.

Is that so? :D

The whole IEP gets more farcical by the minute.
 
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asylumxl

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The Berks and Hants though does have 110 mph sections and it may well be that due to this reason the IEP can't be used for services to Devon & Cornwall if the top speed when running on diesel is only 90 or 100 mph. For this reason HSTs are going to have to remain in service.

I'm doubtful 10mph would make a huge impact? 166s don't do 110mph do they? A little more timetable padding and there'd be no issues.

All the difference! The locomotive isn't being hauled around 'dead' under the wires, whereas the underfloor engines and fuel are.

You know what, I shall find out how much the fuel will weigh for you, and come back to this thread.

In order to operate at 100mph/110mph, I think the engines will need to be pretty powerful on this train. In order to stop the extra weight from making a 'reasonable difference' over a 'long time', I think that the engine(s) fitted to the bi-mode would need to be unusually small - a 'get you home' design, if you will.

Well, the QSK19s are already overpowered for the job they do, so surely a smaller engine isn't out of the question?
 

Zoe

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In order to operate at 100mph
There's only a short 4 mile 100 mph section between Cardiff and Swansea. It may be the they decide not to take advantage of this and only run at 90 mph on diesel.
 

Daimler

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I'm doubtful 10mph would make a huge impact? 166s don't do 110mph do they? A little more timetable padding and there'd be no issues.

Yeeees. Just what we need - slower journeys. Big improvements this multi-billion pound project is bringing. :roll:

I really can't believe people are defending the bi-mode - it has been so comprehensively rubbished by the industry's expert press that I assumed even the DfT secretly knew it was a crap idea, but didn't want to cancel it for fear of having to admit to Parliament that it's already costed 27 million pounds - without a single train being built (or even fully designed!).
 

Zoe

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Is that so?
Sorry, my wording wasn't the best. What I was saying was that HSTs are going to have to remain in service as they are not going to order IEP units for Devon & Cornwall services. The only logical reason I can think for this is that the IEP will not be capable of running at 110 mph on diesel.
 

asylumxl

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Yeeees. Just what we need - slower journeys. Big improvements this multi-billion pound project is bringing. :roll:

Work out the difference in timing for running at 100mph max instead of 110mph on the sections that allow it on the B&H and if it is large I will eat my hat.
 

Daimler

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Work out the difference in timing for running at 100mph max instead of 110mph on the sections that allow it on the B&H and if it is large I will eat my hat.

Did I say it would be large?

Surely any new train should bring an improvement? Otherwise, why buy it?

Also, if you read my post you'll see I believe that the fact that the engine is only good for 100mph doesn't mean that suddenly the dead weight (which, as you've said yourself, would make a 'reasonable difference' over a 'long time') disappears.
 

Zoe

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The other possible issue is the range when running on diesel. It may well be that the IEP couldn't get from Bristol or Newbury to Penzance running on diesel. This would be the other logical reason the HSTs would be required to remain in service. As for line speeds, running at 90 mph from Cardiff to Swansea isn't going to take much longer than 100 mph so it may well be that the IEP only runs at 90 mph when on diesel.
 

starrymarkb

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Yes the governments already considered and ruled out locomotives to take the trains beyond the wires. To me Bi-Mode will rise or fall on if the APU's could be easily removed with no more than a couple of days in the shop when they arent needed.

I believe it was rejected because we don't have a "pre existing design" (ie isn't made by Hitachi ;))
 

Zoe

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I believe it was rejected because we don't have a "pre existing design" (ie isn't made by Hitachi
Exactly, Hitachi do not have a diesel locomotive for Great Britain available off the shelf.
 

Daimler

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You know what, I shall find out how much the fuel will weigh for you, and come back to this thread.

Thanks, that would be helpful. We still won't know just what a different a 5 or 10 per cent weight increase makes, of course.

Like I said before, the fact that car manufacturers work incredibly hard to shave of relatively small sums of weight would suggest that the difference is nonetheless considerable, though.

Exactly, Hitachi do not have a diesel locomotive for Great Britain available off the shelf.

As Hydro has said, why must it come from Hitachi? It's not as though they have a monopoly in the UK transport market...

The other possible issue is the range when running on diesel. It may well be that the IEP couldn't get from Bristol or Newbury to Penzance running on diesel. This would be the other logical reason the HSTs would be required to remain in service. As for line speeds, running at 90 mph from Cardiff to Swansea isn't going to take much longer than 100 mph so it may well be that the IEP only runs at 90 mph when on diesel.

More absurdity if this is the case! :D

It's just completely unsuitable - the Great Western won't even have a homogenous intercity fleet any more, so negating the considerable economies derived from this!
 
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Zoe

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As Hydro has said, why must it come from Hitachi? It's not as though they have a monopoly in the UK transport market...
I expect Hitachi would want to keep their designs confidential so only they would be able to produce a locomtoive that would be compatible with the IEP.
 

Hydro

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As Hydro has said, why must it come from Hitachi? It's not as though they have a monopoly in the UK transport market...



I suspect that part of it is pure politics. The Government love Hitachi, because the current rumour mill is saying that if we buy their trains, we can sell off some surplus Eurofighters to the Japanese. If anything came close to IEP, i.e. new locos or kit, then it'll have to be a pure Hitachi show. I don't think Hitachi would give details on the IEP control systems to allow a rival builder to build compatible locos. It's a huge sh*t sandwich and we're all going to have to take a bite.
 

Daimler

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I suspect that part of it is pure politics. The Government love Hitachi, because the current rumour mill is saying that if we buy their trains, we can sell off some surplus Eurofighters to the Japanese. If anything came close to IEP, i.e. new locos or kit, then it'll have to be a pure Hitachi show. I don't think Hitachi would give details on the IEP control systems to allow a rival builder to build compatible locos. It's a huge sh*t sandwich and we're all going to have to take a bite.

Indeed. :(
 

Hydro

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But we don't need to build some more! We've got plenty of oldies!


Well, we don't really. Everything in store is completely unsuitable for this work. The closest thing that could do the job is the 67, and there's only 30 of them, and they are potentially subject to restrictions due to their stupid RA.
 

starrymarkb

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Sorry, my wording wasn't the best. What I was saying was that HSTs are going to have to remain in service as they are not going to order IEP units for Devon & Cornwall services. The only logical reason I can think for this is that the IEP will not be capable of running at 110 mph on diesel.

I understand that the orginal 9+1 Bi-Mode Super Express would have been very underpowered on diesel (90mph max) and would have had issues with the gradients west of Newton Abbot. That later changed to 2x 4+1 sets in multiple for SW services to give two generator cars, then the SW was dropped completely with Super Express Mk2

Also Expect Bombardier/Siemens and Alstom to kick off when the contract is awarded - if the spec has been amended to suit Hitachi but without them being allowed to submit revised plans then they stand a good chance in court..

However if Eurofighters become involved the it becomes defense procurement where normal rules do not apply (see BAe ;))
 

Zoe

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I understand that the orginal 9+1 Bi-Mode Super Express would have been very underpowered on diesel (90mph max) and would have had issues with the gradients west of Newton Abbot. That later changed to 2x 4+1 sets in multiple for SW services to give two generator cars, then the SW was dropped completely with Super Express Mk2
It will be interesting to see what they do with the Paddington to Penzance via Bristol service. I believe it is a franchise commitment to run one train each day that way. If this continues then there will still be one HST each day between Paddington and Bristol.
 

starrymarkb

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47s, 57s?

DB's super 60 conversions could include all this.

57s are diabolically unreliable, the only fleet that does well is FGW's (but even then they have had to hire in or in one case improvise with HST Powercars back to back dragging the 57+sleeper!
 

tbtc

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Of course, but that doesn't alter the fact that dead weight is still being lugged around from London-Bristol Parkway (or wherever). That said, if one attaches a diesel locomotive at the point where electrification ends, then a load of useless traction motors would still be being lugged around if the train was a 'pure' EMU.

This is why I still believe - as does Ian Walmsley in Modern Railways (and even to some extent Roger Ford) - that when a train needs to change power source along its journey, a fixed formation of carriages with a driving cab at either end is the best solution. For the GWML, something like this would be quite neat: electric locomotive at east end of the train, pushing it to wherever electrification ends. Upon arrival at the boundary station, rear loco drops off, diesel loco couples onto front, hauls train to final destination. For the return journey, the reverse applies. This minimises 'dead' weight and offers optimum flexibility.

Okay, so for arguments sake lets say the electric set is a 225 and the diesel engine is a 67 (it won't be a 225, of course, but they are a working example of what I think you are suggesting)

So the 91 pushes the train from London to Cardiff (where the electrification ends). At Cardiff the 91 detaches (a separate driver going to the rear of the train to drive it away?) and runs off into a siding/bay. The 67 then comes along from another siding/bay, the driver changes ends and the 67 pulls the train to Swansea

(apologies if I've got anything wrong, let me know...)

Has anyone got an idea of how long this manoeuvre would take to do? I'm asking as an open question, I'm not trying to belittle, just to get an idea.

I grew up watching the diesels taking portions from Edinburgh to Carstairs, and attaching the train to an electric hauled service from Glasgow down the WCML, but I have no concept of how long it takes to uncouple, drive the 91 away, drive the 67 in, attach it and drive it off.

Presumably passengers will be okay to board/unboard whilst all the shunting is going on.

However, there will be complications with the movement of the 67 and 91 - additional platform/sidings required, additional paths needed at busy stations etc

I don't think there's an ideal way of doing this, we are either going to have to put up with "diesels hauling electrics around/ electrics hauling diesels around", a train with unecessary weight or cutting a lot of direct trains to London from GWML branches

(of course, this wouldn't be a problem with MML electrification, because 99% of London trains never stray from the core route - only a token daily service to Lincoln and Melton Mowbray and a Summer Saturday extension beyond York to Scarborough would need revising - everything else is self-contained)
 

Daimler

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Okay, so for arguments sake lets say the electric set is a 225 and the diesel engine is a 67 (it won't be a 225, of course, but they are a working example of what I think you are suggesting)

So the 91 pushes the train from London to Cardiff (where the electrification ends). At Cardiff the 91 detaches (a separate driver going to the rear of the train to drive it away?) and runs off into a siding/bay. The 67 then comes along from another siding/bay, the driver changes ends and the 67 pulls the train to Swansea

(apologies if I've got anything wrong, let me know...)

Has anyone got an idea of how long this manoeuvre would take to do? I'm asking as an open question, I'm not trying to belittle, just to get an idea.

Not quite. I see it more this way: the 67 (as you say, for the sake of argument) is waiting in the platform as the DVT 'pulls' the electric train in. The autocouplers on these new 67s/DVTs/91s mean that as it does so, it couples up to the 67 as it stops. Doors unlock for passengers to get on/off. As they're getting on/off, the 91 automatically uncouples from the rest of the train and the driver moves from the DVT to the 67. Doors close, train sets off. I have to say, I don't know why it would take any longer than a normal stop at a major station.

tbtc said:
I don't think there's an ideal way of doing this, we are either going to have to put up with "diesels hauling electrics around/ electrics hauling diesels around", a train with unecessary weight or cutting a lot of direct trains to London from GWML branches

(of course, this wouldn't be a problem with MML electrification, because 99% of London trains never stray from the core route - only a token daily service to Lincoln and Melton Mowbray and a Summer Saturday extension beyond York to Scarborough would need revising - everything else is self-contained)

Absolutely - whatever happens will be a compromise of some sort.

And yes, MML electrification makes a lot more sense. :)
 
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