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Alternative rail industry structure models (e.g. franchising) - what might work?

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Bletchleyite

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We've touched on a Network Rail style "QuANGO" structure for the railway, a bit like BR, but what other options might exist?

One thing we don't seem to have tried for instance is "we have £X to spend, here are some lightweight constraints, what can you offer?" Harder to evaluate, but better for cost control perhaps, and encourages bids based on quality rather than the race to the bottom? I seem to recall this is how the Jersey (Libertybus) tender was in part done.

Any other thoughts?
 
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MattRat

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Anything that has less Government involvement. A lot of problems, not just on the railways, are a result of the Government sticking their fingers in pies where they don't belong.
 

mikeg

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Anything that has less Government involvement. A lot of problems, not just on the railways, are a result of the Government sticking their fingers in pies where they don't belong.
Define government involvement. In some countries there is more government involvement in the sense of ownership or regulation of fares for example, but less interference on day to day management decisions. I'd go for something like a statutory corporation with government only getting involved as and when clearly necessary (think Channel Four Rail). I'd also look at vertical reintegration, at least within the context of a wider organisation.

Also are we talking central or regional government involvement? In Germany central government is relatively 'hands-off' but the regional Verkehrsverbunde (think German PTEs and to each area its own PTE) are much more involved in specifying local rail services.
 

Bletchleyite

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Anything that has less Government involvement. A lot of problems, not just on the railways, are a result of the Government sticking their fingers in pies where they don't belong.

I certainly think it makes sense, hence the QuANGO or franchise suggestion, to have Government set general direction* and funding package, and for experienced railwaypeople, wherever they might sit, to do the lower level management and implementation.

* e.g. "we want a 300km/h high speed line connecting all current WCML IC stations to London with a higher hourly capacity than at present", not "we want HS2 to look exactly like this".

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Also are we talking central or regional government involvement? In Germany central government is relatively 'hands-off' but the regional Verkehrsverbunde (think German PTEs and to each area its own PTE) are much more involved in specifying local rail services.

I think local services in urban areas being specified pretty much entirely by PTEs or equivalent could make sense, because in urban areas integration is king.

I could see something like regional transport bodies controlling the regional TOCs*, but a national contract let for an InterCity operation with much more commercial freedom, for instance, though obviously there's considerable overlap and always will be, e.g. a "Transport for the Westcountry"** would need to manage local bus and the branches but also deal with and integrate the local Cornish mainline rail services which are always going to end up being InterCity type services past Plymouth. But then Germany has overlaps too, e.g. the daily Hamburg-Berchtesgaden holiday IC was officially a RE past Freilassing and took an hourly slot in the Takt.

* Perhaps Northern (West) being controlled by a committee of Merseytravel, TfGM and Lancashire and Cumbria's new unitaries, for example. Maybe even split back to a North East and North West operation - I'm not sure Northern hasn't proven a bit big and still acts like two TOCs at times.

** I don't think separating Devon and Cornwall for this makes any sense at all.
 
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Irascible

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Something publically owned - absolutely sick of structures set up to bleed out public money. There's no reason public organisations can't be run as efficiently as private ones, they just have to be attractive enough to pull in quality employees, and hopefully if something is a publically owned company ( or a set of them ) then they can avoid being directly part of the civil service. You might be on to something using regional governments ( even if that's counties ) as stakeholders in the services that run through them, although you can imagine Wiltshire & Cornwall having a scrap over service provision...
 

SynthD

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Give control of each concession to a board of relevant local politicians (eg Andy Burnham), non-exec industry experts (Adrian Shooter), passenger representatives (London Travelwatch?) and union reps. I guess the charter and goals of the organisation would still be written by the central government and they'll want a board seat.
 

Thirteen

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The TfL model with arms length Government involvement like for big ticket projects like HS2. I think TOCs would still have their place but doing it more like the Elizabeth Line, Merseyrail and London Overground where companies are contracted to run the services and the transport authority defines the fares, the timetable and targets.
 

Bletchleyite

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The TfL model with arms length Government involvement like for big ticket projects like HS2. I think TOCs would still have their place but doing it more like the Elizabeth Line, Merseyrail and London Overground where companies are contracted to run the services and the transport authority defines the fares, the timetable and targets.

I guess that (buses aside) is basically what GBR was meant to be?
 

Senex

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There's no reason public organisations can't be run as efficiently as private ones, they just have to be attractive enough to pull in quality employees, and hopefully if something is a publically owned company ( or a set of them ) then they can avoid being directly part of the civil service.
No reason at all why public organisations can't match the best of the private — it just seems to be that in Britain that has never happened, partly because of the short-termism so typical of this country and partly because our civil service just loves to exercise close day-to-day control, in fact if not in theory. A publicly-owned company or a statutory corporation would be fine, but only if it were set up in such a way as to be well clear of interfering Whitehall civil servants.
 

izvor

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There's no reason public organisations can't be run as efficiently as private ones, they just have to be attractive enough to pull in quality employees, and hopefully if something is a publically owned company ( or a set of them ) then they can avoid being directly part of the civil service.
No reason at all why public organisations can't match the best of the private — it just seems to be that in Britain that has never happened, partly because of the short-termism so typical of this country and partly because our civil service just loves to exercise close day-to-day control, in fact if not in theory. A publicly-owned company or a statutory corporation would be fine, but only if it were set up in such a way as to be well clear of interfering Whitehall civil servants.
Avoiding short-termism and political interference yes, but also any new state-owned model would need to guarantee the required investment and curb the influence of the Treasury. Those politicians who love to bemoan the "dreadful old days of nationalised BR and its wilting sandwiches" conveniently ignore that it was lack of investment, from them, that was much of the cause. Until you have a Treasury that can actually differentiate public investment from mere expenditure, the state-owned model will not work.

Agreed, regional (not local) authority influence would be critical, but expenditure levels would need to be guaranteed, and currently governments (of both colours) still see local authority spending as a low-hanging fruit to be plucked whenever austerity is the national watchword. In any case, unlike Germany and France &c, we do not have a consistent, England-wide regional authority tier that could be effective.

Can this ever change?
 

dorsetdesiro

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I think Bletchleylite could be right, TOCs being under control of regional transport authorities with only the intercity lines answerable to the DfT/Network Rail could work.

Either this or a single TOC for England with a separate nationwide intercity brand shared with TfW and ScotRail akin to Enterprise in Ireland.

It would be good if all London inner-suburbans into & out of all London terminals get run by TfL/LO - for seamless ticketing & operations etc - and intercity services get folded into a nationwide intercity operator which could leave other TOCs less bloated and focus more in their own regions. I guess medium distance services to/from London would remain with TOCs as these are not really "intercity" such as SWR to Southampton and LNR to Northampton etc.
 

Thirteen

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I think Bletchleylite could be right, TOCs being under control of regional transport authorities with only the intercity lines answerable to the DfT/Network Rail could work.

Either this or a single TOC for England with a separate nationwide intercity brand shared with TfW and ScotRail akin to Enterprise in Ireland.

It would be good if all London inner-suburbans into & out of all London terminals get run by TfL/LO - for seamless ticketing & operations etc - and intercity services get folded into a nationwide intercity operator which could leave other TOCs less bloated and focus more in their own regions. I guess medium distance services to/from London would remain with TOCs as these are not really "intercity" such as SWR to Southampton and LNR to Northampton etc.
A single TOC for England is very unlikely and I think the transport authorities would object to losing the likes of LO, Elizabeth Line, Merseyrail etc to this single TOC taking their services.
 

Bletchleyite

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A single TOC for England is very unlikely and I think the transport authorities would object to losing the likes of LO, Elizabeth Line, Merseyrail etc to this single TOC taking their services.

I don't think there'd be any sense at all in un-devolving already devolved bits. Merseyrail has always been its own thing with strong local management, for instance, even when it was part of BR.

In practice LO, EL and Merseyrail wouldn't form a part of a "Rail England", just like the tram networks or T&W Metro wouldn't. That's not a problem.
 

Annetts key

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No reason at all why public organisations can't match the best of the private — it just seems to be that in Britain that has never happened, partly because of the short-termism so typical of this country and partly because our civil service just loves to exercise close day-to-day control, in fact if not in theory. A publicly-owned company or a statutory corporation would be fine, but only if it were set up in such a way as to be well clear of interfering Whitehall civil servants.
I don’t think it is as simple as the civil servants interfering on their own back, they are only trying to carry out the policies set by the elected politicians, that is, the government ministers.

Myself, don’t see why ‘intercity’ services can’t be under the control of regional transport authorities. Yes, they would have to cooperate with one another, but that’s not much different than them having to cooperate with whatever other organisation you put in place to run the ‘intercity’ services, or where regional/local trains move between different regional transport authority areas.

Network Rail should not be responsible for the provision or operation of any passenger trains (apart from timetabling), as this is outside their area of experience.
 

dorsetdesiro

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In practice LO, EL and Merseyrail wouldn't form a part of a "Rail England", just like the tram networks or T&W Metro wouldn't. That's not a problem.

Yep, I can see three possible scenarios:

Scenario A

English TOCs under devolved authorities
LO, EL under TfL
EMR under Transport for East Midlands
GWR under Transport for the South West, West of England CA
SWR under Transport for the South West, Transport for South East
Merseyrail under Merseytravel
Northern (Western) under TfGM, Merseytravel and Transport for the North
Northern (Eastern) under WYCA and Transport for the North, Transport for the North East
Metrolink under TfGM
etc

Nationwide intercity TOC (cross border services shared by DfT and Welsh Gov and Transport Scotland)
Intercity services of current TOCs (such as AWC, LNER, GWR, EMR, TPE, XC etc) to be transferred over

Scenario B

Urban TOCs under devolved authorities
LO, EL under TfL
Merseyrail under Merseytravel
T&W Metro under Nexus
Metrolink under TfGM
WMR under Transport for West Midlands
South Wales Metro under TfW
SPT under Transport Scotland
etc

English TOCs under DfT regional management contracts (remaining separate as now)
GWR, SWR, Greater Anglia, Southeastern, Northern etc

Nationwide intercity TOC (cross border services shared by DfT and Welsh Gov and Transport Scotland)
Intercity services of current TOCs (such as AWC, LNER, GWR, EMR, TPE, XC etc) to be transferred over

Scenario C

Urban TOCs under devolved authorities
LO, EL under TfL
Merseyrail under Merseytravel
T&W Metro under Nexus
Metrolink under TfGM
WMR under Transport for West Midlands
South Wales Metro under TfW
SPT under Transport Scotland
etc

"Single English TOC" under DfT or possible new body combining parts of DfT, ORR and Network Rail?
All current English TOCs merged into single brand for English non-intercity & non-devolved services

Nationwide intercity TOC (cross border services shared by "Single English TOC" and TfW and ScotRail)
Intercity services of current TOCs (such as AWC, LNER, GWR, EMR, TPE, XC etc) to be transferred over
 
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Annetts key

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The trouble with transferring ‘intercity’ services to a national or nationwide operator or to the DfT, is that in the West / West Country, and likely elsewhere, is that some of these ‘intercity’ services operate as regional/local services as well.

And we want these services to be worked cooperatively with the other regional/local services.

Hence I don’t think having a separate ‘intercity’ organisation, especially a national or nationwide operator is a good idea.

Especially since the last time that ‘intercity’ and regional/local services were split and separated did not, IMHO, work very well.
 

Thirteen

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I wonder if certain routes especially those in London could go under the purview of TfL like Great Northern which could part of London Overground or some of the Southern routes.
 

507020

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The rail industry needs to be both monolithic and autonomous, i.e. wholly owned but not controlled by the government.

This would see the merger of all passenger services, including those currently run by open access operators, into a single passenger operator to be operated directly, combined as a single entity with infrastructure maintenance and freight operations.

It is imperative that infrastructure maintenance MUST NOT be carried out by a separate body to that which runs the trains.

Long distance trains can carry flagship “InterCity” branding but must not be operationally separate from other services. Likewise, inter-regional trains should have ample local control, but with this control shared between neighbouring regions, e.g. Liverpool - Manchester services run jointly by Merseytravel and TfGM.

All rolling stock and signalling research and development and manufacturing should also be carried out in house, with no outside involvement from other suppliers who may impose premature obsolescence of equipment.

And certainly no place for leasing of any kind anywhere in the industry!
 

Bletchleyite

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To be fair to separating InterCity out, BR did pretty well with that. But I'm not sure I'd not just put those with England, they've always been English TOCs straying into Scotland/Wales anyway, and nobody has ever come up with a real suggestion that that is a problem. Even if Scotland seceded, there'd still be international trains. Sure, you could swap to a Scottish driver and guard at Carlisle if they were operated by ScotRail within Scotland (this is the European norm and has been for ages) but it's not a big thing.

The more interesting one if you regionalise is the South East commuter area. It probably doesn't make sense to have TfL controlling LNR services all the way to Birmingham, yet how do you allocate a TOC ilke that? That's why I think you'd end up stuck with a Rail England. What you generally have in the SE is a set of "pie slices" that don't really relate massively to one another but do all relate to London.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I wonder if certain routes especially those in London could go under the purview of TfL like Great Northern which could part of London Overground or some of the Southern routes.

This would only make sense for the innersuburbans. There would be no sense at all of having TfL managing Birmingham semifasts.
 

Halifaxlad

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I could see something like regional transport bodies controlling the regional TOCs*, but a national contract let for an InterCity operation with much more commercial freedom, for instance, though obviously there's considerable overlap and always will be, e.g. a "Transport for the Westcountry"** would need to manage local bus and the branches but also deal with and integrate the local Cornish mainline rail services which are always going to end up being InterCity type services past Plymouth. But then Germany has overlaps too, e.g. the daily Hamburg-Berchtesgaden holiday IC was officially a RE past Freilassing and took an hourly slot in the Takt.
This made me think about a 'Transport for Yorkshire' regional body.
The trouble with transferring ‘intercity’ services to a national or nationwide operator or to the DfT, is that in the West / West Country, and likely elsewhere, is that some of these ‘intercity’ services operate as regional/local services as well.

And we want these services to be worked cooperatively with the other regional/local services.

Hence I don’t think having a separate ‘intercity’ organisation, especially a national or nationwide operator is a good idea.

Especially since the last time that ‘intercity’ and regional/local services were split and separated did not, IMHO, work very well.
Surely this could be resolved by centralising timetable planning ?
 

Bletchleyite

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This made me think about a 'Transport for Yorkshire' regional body.

I could see a lot of sense in that. And because people do think of themselves as a Yorkshireman first, there'd not be the negative politics you'd get from a "Greater Lancashire" one.

Basically take SYPTE, WYPTE/Metro and add in the rural bits like the Dales and Whitby, up its powers to include bus regulation, and you'd be sorted. It's a pity there's already a bus company called Go Whippet, that would be a great name - flat caps a compulsory part of the staff uniform too :D

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

(I think this should be thrown in here as a slight diversion):

Youtube: Yorkshire Airlines sketch
 

WAB

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Surely this could be resolved by centralising timetable planning ?
Doesn't help with the unnecessary separation of unit maintenance, train crew, and station staff. You have to work out what benefit you derive from having TOCs at all if train planning is centralised and traincrew, maintenance and station staff are pooled. Really, TOCs wouldn't be particularly helpful except for the customer experience and commercial side of things.
 

JamesT

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The rail industry needs to be both monolithic and autonomous, i.e. wholly owned but not controlled by the government.

This would see the merger of all passenger services, including those currently run by open access operators, into a single passenger operator to be operated directly, combined as a single entity with infrastructure maintenance and freight operations.

It is imperative that infrastructure maintenance MUST NOT be carried out by a separate body to that which runs the trains.

Long distance trains can carry flagship “InterCity” branding but must not be operationally separate from other services. Likewise, inter-regional trains should have ample local control, but with this control shared between neighbouring regions, e.g. Liverpool - Manchester services run jointly by Merseytravel and TfGM.

All rolling stock and signalling research and development and manufacturing should also be carried out in house, with no outside involvement from other suppliers who may impose premature obsolescence of equipment.

And certainly no place for leasing of any kind anywhere in the industry!
That's a lot of pronouncements, it would be interesting to see your reasoning behind them.
The railways have never been a monolithic organisation. Although there are some economies of scale, there are also diseconomies where things get just too big to manage as one. Whether it's regions or sectors or some other division, things will end up being split.
The government is never going to allow autonomy where they're paying the bills. If the railway is a public service, then it should be responding to the requirements of the public's elected representatives.
Ending the TOC contracts is relatively easy, you simply allow them to expire and have your new organisation take them over. But how would you do the OAOs? Or the freight? What do you do with Eurostar?
Why must infrastructure be part of the same organisation?
Why shouldn't intercity be operationally separate? It's almost certainly going to make most sense to dedicate staff to the differing requirements of long-distance trains that stop occasionally versus high-density commuter operations. You don't want government control, but you're happy for organisations under the auspices of local politicians to have control, how does that work?
How much extra is it going to cost to produce everything in house from scratch, rather than tendering in a competitive marketplace? We may only require a few dozen of a particular type of train. But for the manufacturer it's probably a variant of a train that they've made hundreds or thousands of. Components will be coming from specialist manufacturers, are we recreating that from scratch? If you're trying to avoid 'premature' obsolescence (when has that happened?), is this manufacturer going to have to support their kit forever?
Leasing is a perfectly sensible way of acquiring kit. If you're banning it then you're going to have to pay some fairly hefty upfront bills to buy stuff.
 

507020

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That's a lot of pronouncements, it would be interesting to see your reasoning behind them.
The railways have never been a monolithic organisation. Although there are some economies of scale, there are also diseconomies where things get just too big to manage as one. Whether it's regions or sectors or some other division, things will end up being split.
The monolithic railway would of course be able to have some sort of internal management structure, I don’t expect it to all be run by one person, but the point is this structure would exist internally within the railway, not outside.
The government is never going to allow autonomy where they're paying the bills. If the railway is a public service, then it should be responding to the requirements of the public's elected representatives.
If the railway is a public service, which it is (and a public service is all it is, it certainly isn’t a business) then shouldn’t it actually be responding to the requirements of the public, ~65 million people, not just their 650 elected representatives? In short is this called the depoliticisation of the railway I wonder?

It should be able to respond dynamically without requiring any outside approval. If increasing usage demands additional rolling stock or infrastructure improvements to create capacity, the railway should simply be able to bill the government for them, without any argument that “there’s no money” when it is simply impossible for this to be the case.
Ending the TOC contracts is relatively easy, you simply allow them to expire and have your new organisation take them over. But how would you do the OAOs? Or the freight? What do you do with Eurostar?
Open access and freight operators would either have to be compulsory purchased, or be stripped of their operating licenses with their services absorbed by the single operator. With the Eurostar being an international train, this is the only instance in which open access would be permissible, albeit only on HS1, but should be a joint service of what I will refer to as BR and the SNCF for Paris services, as well as the SNCB and NS for Amsterdam services. If a direct service to Germany was introduced, DB would also be able to participate etc. Incidentally, HS1 should eventually be brought into public ownership, but I believe this the plan anyway.
Why must infrastructure be part of the same organisation?
It is generally accepted that the separation of infrastructure as imposed under the European First Railway Package has been detrimental to the operation of the railway and Mick Lynch for example has stated that this was one of the main reasons he supported Brexit.

The correct structure is vertically integrated and this is non-negotiable as this is a far superior arrangement.

The infrastructure separation exists primarily to facilitate open access, which itself serves no purpose other than as a hinderance to the railway.
Why shouldn't intercity be operationally separate? It's almost certainly going to make most sense to dedicate staff to the differing requirements of long-distance trains that stop occasionally versus high-density commuter operations.
Several posts in this thread state that InterCity should not be operationally separate.

It is an inefficiency to have multiple separate pools of staff for different service groups. I would prefer all drivers and guards to be equally proficient in the operation of both long-distance and high-density commuter operations as this allows for maximum operational flexibility in the events of staff absence or disruption. It may make sense to have a small pool of freight only drivers, but it would also make sense to have a number of mixed traffic drivers.

Under sectorisation at BR, Regional Railway and NSE staff were banned from using the InterCity mess facilities, which is frankly ridiculous. In no way were they second best. Also, route learning for the Selby Diversion was done on a humble DMU, as opposed to deploying a full length HST set. A similar deviation to the ECML today would require the use of a full length Azuma since LNER do not sign the Northern DMUs or EMUs, which is surely a waste.

Northern and LNER should be merged immediately to free up resources at the OLR, since they interface at several locations in Yorkshire and the North East anyway.
You don't want government control, but you're happy for organisations under the auspices of local politicians to have control, how does that work?
It may be appropriate for the government to have an understanding of the railway’s actions, but never to interfere. Local politicians may be able to represent railway users’ interests on a local level, e.g. which lines people want reopening, requadrupling or an otherwise increased service, but they aren’t going to be running the thing.
How much extra is it going to cost to produce everything in house from scratch, rather than tendering in a competitive marketplace? We may only require a few dozen of a particular type of train. But for the manufacturer it's probably a variant of a train that they've made hundreds or thousands of. Components will be coming from specialist manufacturers, are we recreating that from scratch? If you're trying to avoid 'premature' obsolescence (when has that happened?), is this manufacturer going to have to support their kit forever?
It is going to cost less to produce everything in house. Obviously the intention isn’t for any kit to be used forever, since this specialist manufacturer will be part of the domestic railway, yes it is going to support it’s own equipment for however long it is in use. This would provide total security to railway assets.

There is actually an exact science to how often everything on the railway needs renewing, which is typically 30-40 years and therefore the amount of work which needs doing continuously under a rolling programme. Improvements creating additional infrastructure or rolling stock increase this workload, as does production for export (which is free money!) so it may be desirable to aim for total renewal within 20-25 years to allow for any delays which may arise. This would also offer an improved passenger experience.

Incidentally, the introduction of “competitive tendering” broke this exact science and led to the closure of Washwood Heath as well as all other historic railway workshops except Derby. The current railway doesn’t have access to a competitive marketplace either. I believe Siemens holds an effective monopoly on new signalling installations for example. See also the use of proprietary “Translohr” single rail-guided trolleybus systems in continental Europe and the threat of obsolescence this creates.

I would also like to see the whole heritage/preservation sector to become part of the main rail industry structure, with money provided to maintain examples of the railway’s past, you guessed it, forever, without relying on volunteers or donations.
Leasing is a perfectly sensible way of acquiring kit. If you're banning it then you're going to have to pay some fairly hefty upfront bills to buy stuff.
No it isn’t. Outlawing leasing drastically reduces whole life cost and also haemorrhaging of ROSCO “profits” never to be seen again by the industry. These upfront costs are effectively negligible since the railway retains the use of a revenue generating asset for several decades and has no liability to make any further payments, particularly in interest.

See leasing vs outright purchase of aircraft by airlines. Thomas Cook leased all its aircraft, had no assets and… collapsed!
 

The Ham

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I do wonder if there's a way to run things a little differently.

For example, rather than TOC's getting rolling stock from a ROSCO, the "government" (probably similar to the HS2 setup rather than DfT) has a rolling program of buying a fleet and the regions/TOC bidding to use them (with there being a upper/lower number fleet size to allow for demand for that diet to be higher/lower).

For example this could mean that TOC's 1 and 2 bid for new trains having already talked to TOC's 3 & 4 about cascading some of the units and TOC 5 cascading some units from the previous two to allow some 38 year old units to be scrapped.

The advantage is that we could end up with fewer classes of trains (reducing training and maintenance costs), a rolling program of train building (so train builders know what's likely to be needed, reducing the risk of great and famine when it comes to train orders).
 

Thirteen

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Leasing rolling stock is done even by the likes of TfL. The Class 345 were sold and leased back in order to pay for the NTfL rolling stock for the Piccadilly Line.
 

RobShipway

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Yep, I can see three possible scenarios:

Scenario A

English TOCs under devolved authorities
LO, EL under TfL
EMR under Transport for East Midlands
GWR under Transport for the South West, West of England CA
SWR under Transport for the South West, Transport for South East
Merseyrail under Merseytravel
Northern (Western) under TfGM, Merseytravel and Transport for the North
Northern (Eastern) under WYCA and Transport for the North, Transport for the North East
Metrolink under TfGM
etc

Nationwide intercity TOC (cross border services shared by DfT and Welsh Gov and Transport Scotland)
Intercity services of current TOCs (such as AWC, LNER, GWR, EMR, TPE, XC etc) to be transferred over

Scenario B

Urban TOCs under devolved authorities
LO, EL under TfL
Merseyrail under Merseytravel
T&W Metro under Nexus
Metrolink under TfGM
WMR under Transport for West Midlands
South Wales Metro under TfW
SPT under Transport Scotland
etc

English TOCs under DfT regional management contracts (remaining separate as now)
GWR, SWR, Greater Anglia, Southeastern, Northern etc

Nationwide intercity TOC (cross border services shared by DfT and Welsh Gov and Transport Scotland)
Intercity services of current TOCs (such as AWC, LNER, GWR, EMR, TPE, XC etc) to be transferred over

Scenario C

Urban TOCs under devolved authorities
LO, EL under TfL
Merseyrail under Merseytravel
T&W Metro under Nexus
Metrolink under TfGM
WMR under Transport for West Midlands
South Wales Metro under TfW
SPT under Transport Scotland
etc

"Single English TOC" under DfT or possible new body combining parts of DfT, ORR and Network Rail?
All current English TOCs merged into single brand for English non-intercity & non-devolved services

Nationwide intercity TOC (cross border services shared by "Single English TOC" and TfW and ScotRail)
Intercity services of current TOCs (such as AWC, LNER, GWR, EMR, TPE, XC etc) to be transferred over
In your scenario A, you do not specify how both Southern Railway, Thameslink and South Eastern or that matter trains in North Wales should be managed?

You also have the problem that some routes go under multiple authorities such as the Cardiff - Portsmouth route run by GWR, but would come under South Wales Metro, West of England, Transport for the South West and Transport for South East.
 

Bletchleyite

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"Marston Vale mafia"
Leasing rolling stock is done even by the likes of TfL. The Class 345 were sold and leased back in order to pay for the NTfL rolling stock for the Piccadilly Line.

I think the problem with leasing was the way the old ex-BR fleets were near given away to leasecos despite mostly being fully depreciated, which released a bit of capital for the Government's coffers but caused an issue by costing the railway money for things that really shouldn't have cost them money.

If it's more financially expedient to lease a brand new fleet commercially than buy it, I can't see any issue there, and it has eased the process of transfer between operators - in Germany where there isn't such a structure, where a TOC has gone out of business they've lost their trains too, resulting in the need to hire in heritage stock and operate a significantly reduced replacement for a bit while the issue is sorted out. Think what has happened on the Marston Vale but on a far larger scale.
 

Annetts key

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Messages
3,810
Location
West is best
I think the problem with leasing was the way the old ex-BR fleets were near given away to leasecos despite mostly being fully depreciated, which released a bit of capital for the Government's coffers but caused an issue by costing the railway money for things that really shouldn't have cost them money.
Typical Conservative government way of doing things to make sure the sell off is successful.

If it's more financially expedient to lease a brand new fleet commercially than buy it, I can't see any issue there, and it has eased the process of transfer between operators - in Germany where there isn't such a structure, where a TOC has gone out of business they've lost their trains too, resulting in the need to hire in heritage stock and operate a significantly reduced replacement for a bit while the issue is sorted out. Think what has happened on the Marston Vale but on a far larger scale.
But if we have a system/organisation that is backed by the state, it won’t go out of business…
Under the current system, how can a TOC loose money and stop trading? If they did get into difficulties, they just hand the operation over to the government.
 
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