Alstom submit plans for Halebank, Widnes site!

[8A Rail]

Although it has been hush hush for a while, finally it has now been formally announced that Alstom wish to develop the site at Halebank, Widnes (Cheshire) for a transport and technology facility.

See: http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/local-news/alstom-submits-plans-develop-hbc-10501132

The firm behind a planned huge new transport technology centre in Widnes which could create up to 600 jobs has been revealed.
Alstom has submitted plans to construct a facility served by both road and rail at the HBC Field site near Halebank Road.
Earlier in November, the Weekly News reported that up to 600 jobs were to be created after Halton Council’s executive board gave the go-ahead to sell part of the Halebank site to develop 30 of the 46 acres.
Alstom has now submitted plans for three phases of construction.
According to the application, the first planned phase proposes building a facility spanning nearly 28,000sq m and would include rail sidings, lorry access, service yards, a substation, and associated engineering operations....

and: https://webapp.halton.gov.uk/PlanningApps/1500549FULEIA/PLAN_Figure%202.1%20-%20Proposed%20Site%20Layout.pdf

This is good news for the area as a whole and hopefully it comes off as intended.

The location in question is partly in this image - https://www.flickr.com/photos/8arail/23192566566/ but the main buildings would be to the right out of view in this image. The proposed long two sidings would be end in the foreground and running along the existing mainlines. Ditton Power Box and associated sidings are located at the backend of the train. That gives an idea on how big the site is.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'm struggling to think of what use Alstom could make of such a site.
They have a number of distributed maintenance sites across the country, including regional rolling stock depots at Longsight, Edge Hill, Crewe and Chester.
They also have major contract work on signalling and electrification, and power engineering (eg Preston, Stafford).
Alstom UK HQ is at Rugby.
But what is the reason behind building a large rail-connected greenfield site in Widnes, unless it is to centralise some of the existing distributed depots?

 

[8A Rail]

I think you need to think beyond maintenance and what is required in the future for UK railways. Poss ECML / HS2 springs to mind! Let us not knock the proposal and again I think it could be good news for the area.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Information on the proposed facility can be gleaned from other documents submitted as part of the planning application, particularly 'Alstom Statement - Final.pdf.

We want to create a permanent home for Alstom's train care activities. A base where we can support modernisation and innovation for industry-leading rolling stock and infrastructure for the entire network.

The first phase involves facilities for the essential maintenance and modernisation of the trains.

The second phase offers an extended manufacturing facility

https://webapp.halton.gov.uk/PlanningApps/1500549FULEIA/OTH_Alstom%20Statement%20-%20Final.pdf

To see the full application, go to the Halton planning website, linked in post no 1, and enter 'Alstom' in the applicant field. Only one application appears, for this proposed facility.

 

[WatcherZero]

Im reading it as a plan for a refurbishment facility with some maintence and a site for training engineers to maintain its trains. It would also allow them to bid for rolling stock contracts as a British builder. They specifically identify TransNorth and HS2 as things they would like to bid for.

Phase 1 begin Spring 2016 complete summer 2017, Refurbishment and maintenance
Phase 2 complete autumn 2017, training academy
Phase 3 to begin construction in 2018 subject to winning contracts, rolling stock manufacturing facility.

They also claim that 50% of the rolling stock on the network is past its half-life and due a refurbishment/modernisation.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Im reading it as a plan for a refurbishment facility with some maintence and a site for training engineers to maintain its trains. It would also allow them to bid for rolling stock contracts as a British builder. They specifically identify TransNorth and HS2 as things they would like to bid for.

Phase 1 begin Spring 2016 complete summer 2017, Refurbishment and maintenance
Phase 2 complete autumn 2017, training academy
Phase 3 to begin construction in 2018 subject to winning contracts, rolling stock manufacturing facility.

They also claim that 50% of the rolling stock on the network is past its half-life and due a refurbishment/modernisation.

When does the Pendolino fleet come up for major refurbishment? Easier in a shiny new purpose built facility than trying to fit it in around daily maintenance requirements in depots.

 

[Haydn1971]

Alstom wanting a new facility in the UK ? So, there's a whole fleet of EMU's for TransPennine and Liverpool to bid for, the cascaded 80's EMU's are going to need first a refurbish, then ultimately replacing, there's HS2 to bid for, plus MML and XC stock, then erm... What else... Why on earth would Alstom want to have a showcase factory in the UK like Hitachi ? Rolls eyes

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Alstom wanting a new facility in the UK ? So, there's a whole fleet of EMU's for TransPennine and Liverpool to bid for, the cascaded 80's EMU's are going to need first a refurbish, then ultimately replacing, there's HS2 to bid for, plus MML and XC stock, then erm... What else... Why on earth would Alstom want to have a showcase factory in the UK like Hitachi ?

I think you named that tune in one!

 

[RichmondCommu]

Alstom wanting a new facility in the UK ? So, there's a whole fleet of EMU's for TransPennine and Liverpool to bid for, the cascaded 80's EMU's are going to need first a refurbish, then ultimately replacing, there's HS2 to bid for, plus MML and XC stock, then erm... What else... Why on earth would Alstom want to have a showcase factory in the UK like Hitachi ? Rolls eyes

However surely it would be cheaper to build new trains using their existing production facilities in France rather than build a new factory over here? Siemens have won plenty of orders from the TOC's without going to the considerable expense of building a new factory in this country.

 

[WatcherZero]

Offsets are a positive element in your bidding.

Point is though they are building it for refurbs with room to accommodate production contracts in future if any are won. Which would be cheap and quick to gear up for with an existing site and workforce unlike Hitachi who had to start from scratch. Implication is also that some of their other sites could close and be consolidated in Wirral as they refer in the application to the problems arising of leasing space in depots owned by other companies.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Implication is also that some of their other sites could close and be consolidated in Wirral as they refer in the application to the problems arising of leasing space in depots owned by other companies.

Wirral? Halebank is on the opposite bank of the Mersey, between Ditton and Speke.

I'd just say that without a significant refurb order, the Alstom business case must be about reducing the cost of running its existing maintenance and repair business.
Any new Pendolinos, in particular, are going to be built in Italy, not the UK.

 

[The Ham]

Any new Pendolinos, in particular, are going to be built in Italy, not the UK.

Given the way that many companies build components over many different sites it wouldn't be too hard for Alstom to use a primarily maintenance site to assemble various components into a new train. This could be beneficial to them in that it could also free up capacity at their plant in Italy to enable them to build more trains in a shorter time.

The main point is, if you have staff who can replace parts on an old train what extra training do you need to provide them to fit it into a new train? I would suggest not a lot (if any). Therefore why not have the possibility of being able to use that resource to be able to build more trains than you can from just one location given that it is not going to be that costly to do and could allow you to bid for more work.

Bearing in mind that there are reports that the UK will receive 3,700 coaches over the next 4 years (here) then I can see why they may want to be part of that (or at least part of the next big run of train orders).

 

[AndrewP]

Wonder if they considered a site in Washwood Heath, Birmingham. (Joke)

Being serious, it is always nice to see a manufacturer expand in the UK - can this site offer continental gauge access to a seaport?

 

[Dixie]

This is where Amazon were going to build a new warehouse which was cancelled after legal problems arose with the planning application.

 

[montyburns56]

Perhaps they could reopen Ditton station at the same time.

 

[FordFocus]

The end of Wolverton and the site sold off?

 

[Dixie]

Perhaps they could reopen Ditton station at the same time.

Well it wouldn't take a lot as most of the infrastructure is there still, apart from the station building.

 

[Mikey C]

However surely it would be cheaper to build new trains using their existing production facilities in France rather than build a new factory over here? Siemens have won plenty of orders from the TOC's without going to the considerable expense of building a new factory in this country.

The Thameslink award to Siemens caused a massive political storm. They have some UK operations but not a final assembly line, which seems to ease tension!

Alstom (for various reasons) have managed to lose their position as a major player in the UK market, when you consider the massive orders they had in the 1990s. Apart from mainline stock, they built all the 1995 and 1996 stock tube trains. Maybe they'll want to bid for the New Tube for London and think some sort of UK screwdriver assembly plant will help them win it?

 

[Chris125]

Maybe they'll want to bid for the New Tube for London and think some sort of UK screwdriver assembly plant will help them win it?

Before NTfL there's the 34-68 extra units for the Northern and Jubilee lines currently being tendered - contract award will be in October 2016 and Alstom will no doubt be very keen.

 

[Clip]

However surely it would be cheaper to build new trains using their existing production facilities in France rather than build a new factory over here? Siemens have won plenty of orders from the TOC's without going to the considerable expense of building a new factory in this country.

Cost is a factor here without a doubt but more increasingly I think you have to look at a much bigger picture about what is good for Britain when bidding - I,e the supply chain using as many British company's as possible will factor heavy in a bid and that is good news as that creates more jobs across the whole of the north, but more so from an environmental impact too - building stuff and then moving it many miles leaves a big carbon impact on the world and if you can reduce that and show you can during your bid then that's also going to get you brownie points and the savings made will far outweigh the energy and carbon footprint that building a new factory will create.

 

[Mikey C]

Cost is a factor here without a doubt but more increasingly I think you have to look at a much bigger picture about what is good for Britain when bidding - I,e the supply chain using as many British company's as possible will factor heavy in a bid and that is good news as that creates more jobs across the whole of the north, but more so from an environmental impact too - building stuff and then moving it many miles leaves a big carbon impact on the world and if you can reduce that and show you can during your bid then that's also going to get you brownie points and the savings made will far outweigh the energy and carbon footprint that building a new factory will create.

I'm note sure the environmental issues come into play, much of the 800s come from Japan, and the basic bodyshells of all the recent Washwood Heath products were imported anyway. I think it's more Alstom trying to gain political benefit from having more local production, than say Siemens.

After all they do still have the former GEC traction motor facility at Preston.

 

[hwl]

Before NTfL there's the 34-68 extra units for the Northern and Jubilee lines currently being tendered - contract award will be in October 2016 and Alstom will no doubt be very keen.

I think it would be quite hard for any one other than Alstom to win given the likely specification.

Also probable retractioning of central line stock (As NTfL delayed)

Lots of ERTMS to be fitted to stock and Alstom signalling division are picking up some of the contracts for on train equipment.

Wabtec seem to be perennially busy (as are others?) and it takes a long time to get rolling stock overhaul, refurb or modification programmes done and there is lots to do pre 2020.

Would the plant be likely do work on units that weren't made by Alstom or have Alstom equipment?

Interestingly Alstom haven't picked up any retractioning work on the SWT 455s or GA 321s. Lack of space to do the work?
Are they eyeing up a 319 retractioning? - Porterbrook reference a well known manufacturer lined up for this option in their brochure.

 

[Mikey C]

I think it would be quite hard for any one other than Alstom to win given the likely specification.

Also probable retractioning of central line stock (As NTfL delayed)

Lots of ERTMS to be fitted to stock and Alstom signalling division are picking up some of the contracts for on train equipment.

Wabtec seem to be perennially busy (as are others?) and it takes a long time to get rolling stock overhaul, refurb or modification programmes done and there is lots to do pre 2020.

Would the plant be likely do work on units that weren't made by Alstom or have Alstom equipment?

Interestingly Alstom haven't picked up any retractioning work on the SWT 455s or GA 321s. Lack of space to do the work?
Are they eyeing up a 319 retractioning? - Porterbrook reference a well known manufacturer lined up for this option in their brochure.

I hadn't thought of that. As the original supplier of the traction equipment, you'd have thought they'd want a slice of the action!

 

[hwl]

I hadn't thought of that. As the original supplier of the traction equipment, you'd have thought they'd want a slice of the action!

Considering they have done retractioning work in other countries it is a little odd.
So either:
a) they bid and were too expensive
b) didn't bid because they didn't have the space (or friendly 3rd parties didn't)
c) more profitable contracts elsewhere so they left these smaller less profitable contracts to smaller players
d) a combo of some /all of the above

but as Alstom has recently sold the bigger power division to GE so are now entirely rail focused and have a cash pile to invest. (Presumably they might now be hungrier for rail work now?)

 

[Clip]

I'm note sure the environmental issues come into play, much of the 800s come from Japan, and the basic bodyshells of all the recent Washwood Heath products were imported anyway. I think it's more Alstom trying to gain political benefit from having more local production, than say Siemens.

After all they do still have the former GEC traction motor facility at Preston.

Yes but a lot of these were all procured a while back now and increasingly environmental factors will start to come into play - Look at TfL, they got the ball rolling with the spoils from CR being taken away by river and now with the new DLR franchise they have got environmental savings in there and all sorts of stuff for 3rd party suppliers to adhere to including their emissions from vehicles.

Couple that with the supply chain and its win win in my view

 

[montyburns56]

A few weeks I visited the site of the former ICI Sullivan Works/Tanhouse Lane sidings which are a few miles to the East of Ditton. It is now a large brownfield site that was rail connected until recently and which has roughly the same area as the proposed new site, so it's a shame that Alstom couldn't build their facility there instead of using a green field site.

 

[8A Rail]

A few weeks I visited the site of the former ICI Sullivan Works/Tanhouse Lane sidings which are a few miles to the East of Ditton. It is now a large brownfield site that was rail connected until recently and which has roughly the same area as the proposed new site, so it's a shame that Alstom couldn't build their facility there instead of using a green field site.

That is hardly Alstom's fault is it? Both locations are in the area of Halton BC and the proposed site has been earmarked for industrial use for some considerable time. Halton BC have been attempting to find a company to use the land, one previously was Amazon. I will find out if the area in question was a greenfield site to begin with though as I'm not sure it was.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

That is hardly Alstom's fault is it? Both locations are in the area of Halton BC and the proposed site has been earmarked for industrial use for some considerable time. Halton BC have been attempting to find a company to use the land, one previously was Amazon. I will find out if the area in question was a greenfield site to begin with though as I'm not sure it was.

It seems Amazon is going to a giant site near Manchester Airport.
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...on-warehouse-manchester-airport-city-10543349

 

[Dixie]

The site Alstom is looking at (former Amazon site) is greenfield. It was farming land that had laid fallow for a number of years. A few years ago Halton built a park around what was to be the edge of the site before preparing the site to be sold. Very cloak and dagger at the time. Typical council keeping things quiet. The site is so big that industrialisation will now come right up to the council border with Knowsley. Then there will only be a couple of green fields between the extremities of the Liverpool conurbation and Widnes/Runcorn.

 

[childwallblues]

Good news for rail operations in the area.