Almost empty 8 car TPE

[Haydn1971]

Has anyone else noticed that the 8 car 350 units are nearly always empty - really gets me annoyed when you consider how rammed the 3 car 185's get at peak. What's the state of electrification right now, are there any 185's running under wires still ? Could the core routes be revised to offer up a more sensible unit allocation ?

 

[WatcherZero]

Single 350's are absolutley rammed and usually standing even off peak, naturally of course a 8 car unit in high peak will form a offpeak service later. Of course it also depends at what point in the trip you assess it.

 

[edwin_m]

The electrification hasn't extended far enough to cover any TPE routes end-to-end except Manchester-Scotland. There are still some 185s on that route too, pending the full service with 350s, but even after than some will remain as 185s to balance the train length against demand and probably to retain crew traction knowledge too .

 

[rebmcr]

Remember there will only be ten 350/4's. Not enough to displace many of the fifty-one 185s at all.

 

[Haydn1971]

Single 350's are absolutley rammed and usually standing even off peak, naturally of course a 8 car unit in high peak will form a offpeak service later. Of course it also depends at what point in the trip you assess it.

That's my point, 4:29 2x350 train through Piccadilly from Glasgow was practically deserted tonight, like most nights - so eight carriages run all the way to and from Glasgow - I'd suspect the 17:22 going back up gets busy, but surely not all the way to Glasgow.

 

[najaB]

Has anyone else noticed that the 8 car 350 units are nearly always empty - really gets me annoyed when you consider how rammed the 3 car 185's get at peak.

That's the inevitable consequence of increasing capacity by 125%. As an outsider looking in, until they can reliably count on the services being run by eight-car trains, they are 'assuming' that it may be a 185 filling in. So they can't do all the fancy yield management (low-cost Advance tickets, etc.) to fill them up. After the timetable change, I'd expect there to be a lot more cheap tickets to try and tempt Scotland-bound customers from Virgin.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Has anyone else noticed that the 8 car 350 units are nearly always empty - really gets me annoyed when you consider how rammed the 3 car 185's get at peak. What's the state of electrification right now, are there any 185's running under wires still ? Could the core routes be revised to offer up a more sensible unit allocation ?

There is one 2x350 diagram on a Thursday and one on a Friday AIUI, I presume this is to do with stock movement as much as capacity. The Thursday run starts in Manchester but ends the day in Edinburgh (0900 MIA-EDB and 1609 rtn plus 1700 MIA-EDB) and the Friday run starts in Edinburgh and ends the day in Manchester (0812 EDB-MIA and 1200 rtn plus 1612 EDB-MIA).

 

[northwichcat]

That's the inevitable consequence of increasing capacity by 125%.

A 185 has 181 standard class seats, while a 350/4 has 210 seats, so that's a 16% increase in capacity from a 185 to a 350/4

One of the big disadvantages with the electrification idea is that previously a lot of services which were busy south of Preston operated as portion workings, with a portion to/from Windermere, Barrow or Blackpool being attached to a Scottish service south of Preston. That doesn't work with using 350/4s and sending them via Wigan.

Presumably there's similarities between the current 8 car 350/4 diagrams and the old 6 car 185 diagrams?

 

[samuelmorris]

It's easy to forget that it's not simply 3-car to 4-car, it's 3x23m to 4x20m. Of course, an extra car without a cab at one end means the 'usable' space is increased by slightly more than that (incidentally, a figure that tallies very well with the 16% increase in seating), but not as much as a 3-car to 4-car increase on a like-for-like unit.

The more I think about it, the units that seem better suited to TPE would have been AC equivalents of the 444s - the end-to-end distance of the routes is considerable, and the average inter-station length is also higher than that on the majority of routes where the 'standard' Desiro EMUs are used. I imagine the use of non-express style units is essential for dealing with the levels of overcrowding TPE suffer, as 444s would be a nightmare for dealing with the crush you see on 185s, but if delivery of the units in the first place is to solve the overcrowding issue (albeit after considerable time when everything is wired), one wonders why they weren't a little more ambitious.

 

[najaB]

A 185 has 181 standard class seats, while a 350/4 has 210 seats, so that's a 16% increase in capacity from a 185 to a 350/4

That was just in reference to the comparison between a 3-car 185 and an 8-car 350. Which would be 132% increase

 

[transmanche]

The more I think about it, the units that seem better suited to TPE would have been AC equivalents of the 444s - the end-to-end distance of the routes is considerable, and the average inter-station length is also higher than that on the majority of routes where the 'standard' Desiro EMUs are used. I imagine the use of non-express style units is essential for dealing with the levels of overcrowding TPE suffer, as 444s would be a nightmare for dealing with the crush you see on 185s, but if delivery of the units in the first place is to solve the overcrowding issue (albeit after considerable time when everything is wired), one wonders why they weren't a little more ambitious.

At the time the 185s were ordered, the 444s were starting to be delivered. The 185s have 23m cars (as do 444s, which are the only other Desiro UK units to have 23m cars) so one can surmise that TPE would have seen the 444 bodyshell, but chose to use a different door layout.[*]

TPE knew that the 158s caused extended dwell times at key interchange stations, so must have concluded that the 185s 1/4-3/4 door positioning was better for them than the 444s door arrangement.

* In fact, they may have even got a better price if they'd used the same bodyshell, as there might have been economies of scale.

 

[Leylandlad]

A 185 has 181 standard class seats, while a 350/4 has 210 seats, so that's a 16% increase in capacity from a 185 to a 350/4

One of the big disadvantages with the electrification idea is that previously a lot of services which were busy south of Preston operated as portion workings, with a portion to/from Windermere, Barrow or Blackpool being attached to a Scottish service south of Preston. That doesn't work with using 350/4s and sending them via Wigan.

Presumably there's similarities between the current 8 car 350/4 diagrams and the old 6 car 185 diagrams?

154 std seats in a 185...plus the tip up seats.

http://help.thetrainline.com/euf/assets/images/Pennine Class 185.png

 

[thealexweb]

This could be partially Virgin's fault. From December 2013 they changed it so their Edinburgh services would be formed of 9-11 (double 221 or 390) carriages instead of the existing 5 (single 221).

Also there is more overlap between the two TOCs with the addition of Wigan North Western as a stop for TPE's Scottish services.

Lastly replacing Bolton and Chorley with Wigan was always going to lead to a drop in usage. Bolton alone has more tickets sales per year than both Wigan stations combined.

 

[edwin_m]

Lastly replacing Bolton and Chorley with Wigan was always going to lead to a drop in usage. Bolton alone has more tickets sales per year than both Wigan stations combined.

Maybe so, but this would involve carrying an empty seat between Bolton/Chorley and Scotland simply to cater for the short distance journey into Manchester. The previous arrangement to strengthen trains on the Bolton route by splitting at Preston is no longer viable once the Scotland route is electrified and the Barrow one isn't.

Far better to match supply with demand by providing shorter-distance trains to serve Bolton and Chorley*, so that the Scotland trains can serve longer distance passengers. As you point out the Wigan demand is smaller so can probably be served without overcrowding the Scotland trains, and if a market can be built up between Liverpool and Scotland changing at Wigan these seats can be filled twice (connections appear to be fairly good northbound, less so southbound).

*I agree this won't happen until that route is electrified and Northern has some EMUs to run on it!

 

[jimm]

I wouldn't lose sight of the possibility that Manchester-Scotland services may be handed to the West Coast franchise come 2017, now that North West electrification is removing the main obstacle to this logical move.

If this happens, the suitability or otherwise of the 350/4s may become academic anyway, with them bring sent off to join their cousins at LM and something more suited to Anglo-Scottish work provided. An AC Class 444-alike anyone? Joke... Babylinos more likely.

 

[Stonesourscotty]

You can also use the argument that neither Wigan station is properly Gated yet Bolton is Like Fort G4S

 

[Class377/5]

It's easy to forget that it's not simply 3-car to 4-car, it's 3x23m to 4x20m. Of course, an extra car without a cab at one end means the 'usable' space is increased by slightly more than that (incidentally, a figure that tallies very well with the 16% increase in seating), but not as much as a 3-car to 4-car increase on a like-for-like unit.

The more I think about it, the units that seem better suited to TPE would have been AC equivalents of the 444s - the end-to-end distance of the routes is considerable, and the average inter-station length is also higher than that on the majority of routes where the 'standard' Desiro EMUs are used. I imagine the use of non-express style units is essential for dealing with the levels of overcrowding TPE suffer, as 444s would be a nightmare for dealing with the crush you see on 185s, but if delivery of the units in the first place is to solve the overcrowding issue (albeit after considerable time when everything is wired), one wonders why they weren't a little more ambitious.

You cant get a 444 any more (in fact the currently being built 20x 350 are the final Desiro UK models to be built) but you can get a 380 type unit which comes with door spacing like the 185s. But of course if TPE had got them then the would of had to start from scratch on the deal meaning its unlikely electric stock would be on TPE now.

 

[jopsuk]

You cant get a 444 any more (in fact the currently being built 20x 350 are the final Desiro UK models to be built) but you can get a 380 type unit which comes with door spacing like the 185s. But of course if TPE had got them then the would of had to start from scratch on the deal meaning its unlikely electric stock would be on TPE now.

If it had been a bigger order, I bet Siemens would have been more than happy to build a version of the 380 with single leaf doors towards the end of the carriages. Modular design!

 

[ajdunlop]

Why are they running them as doubles? Is this just till they train enough drivers? Surely they should be replacing the 3 car 185s with single 4 car 350s (at least initially) and freeing up more 158s for other services. They could use one of these freed up units for a Bolton and Chorley covering shuttle service to make up for the drop in their services. And it sounds like Virgin are making up extra capacity on the WCML for the north of the route.

 

[WatcherZero]

You can also use the argument that neither Wigan station is properly Gated yet Bolton is Like Fort G4S

Both are manually gated by G4S, Wallgate usually all day and night at the top of the stairs next to the ticket office and North Western in the tunnel in front of the side exit all peak and off peak until the end of evening peak period sometimes with a couple of BT policemen from the platform station as well.

 

[northwichcat]

That was just in reference to the comparison between a 3-car 185 and an 8-car 350. Which would be 132% increase

There's no evidence been presented so far that the 8 car 350 is running a service that was previously a 3 car 185 and not a 6 car 185 (at least 6 car south of Preston.)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Surely they should be replacing the 3 car 185s with single 4 car 350s (at least initially) and freeing up more 185s for other services.

Until May 2014 there are peak time Scottish services booked to go via Bolton so those diagrams must remain as 185s.

 

[najaB]

There's no evidence been presented so far that the 8 car 350 is running a service that was previously a 3 car 185 and not a 6 car 185 (at least 6 car south of Preston.)

Well in that case, I don't get the point of the thread... "8-car sets have more seats than 3-car sets, but they're different routes anyway".

 

[northwichcat]

Well in that case, I don't get the point of the thread... "8-car sets have more seats than 3-car sets, but they're different routes anyway".

My understanding of the original post is that the question being asked is why are there strengthened 350 diagrams on Scottish services when some of the strengthened services are less than half full and there are still 185s being used on Scottish services, which would be better utilised on crowded North/South TPE services. As I pointed out at least 2 of the 185 diagrams can't currently be changed to 350 diagrams due to needing to go via Bolton.

I'm not sure about the Southbound workings but prior to the December 13 timetable changes the 16:00, 17:00 and 18:00 departures from Manchester Airport for Scotland were all 6 carriages between Manchester Airport and Preston. The 16:00 actually left Manchester Piccadilly with less passengers on board than the Liverpool-Scarborough service that it passes so I can see the point being made about getting 185s released on to North TPE.

 

[harz99]

The 16:00 actually left Manchester Piccadilly with less passengers on board than the Liverpool-Scarborough service that it passes so I can see the point being made about getting 185s released on to North TPE.

My experience of travelling that service back to LOC was always that the Scottish portion was full and standing on leaving MAN, partly because it was going to Scotland, but mostly because of the significant number of Bolton commuters who didn't seem to like walking the extra 70-140 metres from the rear unit to exit Bolton Station (despite many more seats being available at the rear).

 

[thealexweb]

Has it been considered that Virgin should be asked to divert its Edinburgh / Glasgow to London Euston via Birmingham that use 221s to go via Bolton and Manchester?

We have a unusual situation where TPE was forced to get EMUs and can't use its first route of choice as a result and Virgin has DMUs and would like more EMUs.

 

[edwin_m]

TPE have stated that they intend to continue running via Wigan even when the Bolton route is electrified. It may not be their call by then, but gives an idea of the thinking behind the change, which I think is that they would rather fill the train with Manchester-Scotland passengers than Bolton commuters.

Many of the London-Birmingham-Scotland trains are now Pendolinos. I don't think through passengers would fancy a huge diversion via Manchester even after electrification - and nor do I think there is an obvious alternative route which would avoid this time penalty. On the other hand it's quite possible for Manchester-Scotland passengers to use a Pendolino north of Preston by changing there.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Has it been considered that Virgin should be asked to divert its Edinburgh / Glasgow to London Euston via Birmingham that use 221s to go via Bolton and Manchester?

We have a unusual situation where TPE was forced to get EMUs and can't use its first route of choice as a result and Virgin has DMUs and would like more EMUs.

Wouldn't that just deprive the likes of Edinburgh (about an hour quicker via Preston), Glasgow, Carlisle, the Lakes and Preston of a regular, fast, hourly Birmingham service? Also leads to problems if there's a short term (as in on the day) substitution of stock - what happens when one of the random via Bolton services ends up being worked by a Pendolino?

 

[northwichcat]

TPE have stated that they intend to continue running via Wigan even when the Bolton route is electrified. It may not be their call by then, but gives an idea of the thinking behind the change, which I think is that they would rather fill the train with Manchester-Scotland passengers than Bolton commuters.

Before Philip Hammond moved from Transport to Defence he said that Manchester to Scotland services diverted via Wigan would be permanent and this would allow the Bolton corridor to be better used to meet the commuter demand.

 

[Class377/5]

Has it been considered that Virgin should be asked to divert its Edinburgh / Glasgow to London Euston via Birmingham that use 221s to go via Bolton and Manchester?

We have a unusual situation where TPE was forced to get EMUs and can't use its first route of choice as a result and Virgin has DMUs and would like more EMUs.

Because they are now using some 390s for that.

 

[thealexweb]

Because they are now using some 390s for that.

From what I have seen only 2-4 of the 8(?) services a day are allocated 390's.