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Alliance Rail GNWR Services Approved

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MK Tom

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The Railway Magazine is reporting that the planned new Euston-Blackpool service has been approved by the ORR. More info here: http://www.alliancerail.co.uk/

Alliance Rail Holdings (Alliance) has today welcomed the decision by the Office of Rail Regulation (ORR), to approve its application for a new direct passenger rail service between Blackpool and London.
The application to operate six return train services each day, including weekends, was submitted by Great North Western Railway (GNWR), an Arriva company and a sister company of Grand Central, which already operates successful passenger services between the North East and West Yorkshire to London.
The new services will start in 2018 and will see Arriva investing in new tilting trains, and creating around 120 new jobs to operate these services.
Alongside the provision of new direct services from Blackpool to London, passengers will benefit from the increased competition these will provide on the West Coast Main Line (WCML). Communities along the 220 mile route will also benefit from additional journey opportunities at a number of other stations in the North West and the Midlands.

If there's already a thread for this I apologise, I haven't time to look, but this news deserves a new one anyway!
 
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nuneatonmark

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Very pleased with this, about time Virgin had some competition in this area. We badly need extra fast services at Nuneaton so these will be welcomed very much.
 

The Planner

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They need to open their cheque book soon then, they don't have any trains yet, let alone ones that are built.... I would question the sensibility of trying to add more trains into the Euston/Hs2 area building site personally.
 

rebmcr

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They need to open their cheque book soon then, they don't have any trains yet, let alone ones that are built.... I would question the sensibility of trying to add more trains into the Euston/Hs2 area building site personally.

That press release seems VERY careful to only say London, and not mention Euston... I bet this will be a Queens Road terminator (or similar).
 

cjohnson

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That press release seems VERY careful to only say London, and not mention Euston... I bet this will be a Queens Road terminator (or similar).

Indeed... the ORR's decision states
The application is for firm rights for 6 Monday to Saturday (5 on a Sunday) off-peak return services between Queen‟s Park in London and Blackpool North with contingent rights between Queen‟s Park and London Euston. Although it is GNWR‟s intention to run into and out of Euston, and it believes this will be achievable in practice, Network Rail is not prepared to sell new firm rights now due to uncertainty around capacity available at the station during HS2 works.
 

CyrusWuff

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Oopsie...ORR have published the decision letter on their website without redacting the revenue generation and abstraction forecasts.

Another thing to note is that GNWR have only been granted firm rights for calls at Crewe, Preston and Poulton-le-Fylde. Queen's Park - Euston and calls at Milton Keynes Central, Nuneaton, Tamworth, Lichfield Trent Valley and Kirkham & Wesham are all on a contingent basis, thus dependent on network capacity.
 

Bungle965

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The only form of main line services that queens park had ended in 2012 when LM stopped calling at obscure times in early hours or in late at night, which according to Wiki were not even in the public timetable (whether it is right or not?).
 
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MK Tom

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No timetabled LM services call at Queens Park according to any published timetable I can find. It's viable as a London terminus though, with the Overground and Bakerloo Line connections. I'm guessing if it's going to start receiving six trains each way per day though it'll have to be done up a bit? Who even manages the WCML platforms there?
 

Aictos

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No timetabled LM services call at Queens Park according to any published timetable I can find. It's viable as a London terminus though, with the Overground and Bakerloo Line connections. I'm guessing if it's going to start receiving six trains each way per day though it'll have to be done up a bit? Who even manages the WCML platforms there?

From what I can understand, the station was managed by Silverlink Metro until 2006/2007 when management of the station passed to London Underground so seeing as they manage the station I would guess it be a good bet that they are responsible for the WCML platforms too even if no WCML services actually stop there atm.

Only thing is can Queens Park deal with the extra traffic that a InterCity operator will bring, the ORR seems to think so otherwise they wouldn't have agreed to it.

Saying that I think that with connections available with London Buses, London Overground and London Underground it will be successful as to doing the station up a bit as far as I am aware they are doing the station up by delivering step free access with the project to be completed by 2019.
 

MK Tom

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Queens Park is the first station out of Euston with main line platforms. It's also a stop on the Watford DC line of the London Overground and the first stop after the Bakerloo Line emerges from its tunnel and joins the Overground.

However, aren't the main line platforms only on the slow lines currently?
 

Bungle965

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Booking-on_office%2C_Queens_Park_station_-_geograph.org.uk_-_610151.jpg


The only picture I can seem to get showing the 2 non operational platforms (I assume) after a quick scan of the internet.
Sam
 

NotATrainspott

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And this means Alstom are building more Pendolinos, of some description. Hopefully the design isn't too different to the existing Class 390 design, so that it might be possible to buy new intermediate vehicles to extend the remaining 9 car sets to 11 car. It would be great if Virgin West Coast could also replace the Super Voyagers with mini-Pendolinos, even more so if it would be possible to run two 6 car Pendolinos coupled up along the WCML to maximise capacity utilisation.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Well, that should call Alliance's bluff on ordering new trains.
The Alliance press item doesn't specifically say so, but ORR is assuming 4x6-car Pendolinos will operate the new services.
These might possibly be of higher power than the 390s, as both ORR and NR say they expect no adverse performance impact from the new service.
This contradicts what they have been saying about the WCML South for the past few years, in relation to the VT proposals.
We also have the prospect of a DB-owned TOC ordering Alstom trains!

My impression is that ORR/NR have decided to approve these services despite their long-standing view that a timetable rewrite was necessary to allow more services.
The timetable rewrite has been pushed back repeatedly and there is no date for it now (well, some time before 2018).
I think the idea now is to get Open Access services contracted on the WCML before the next ICWC/West Midland franchises are rebid, despite DfT protesations.
There is also the small issue of putting wires up to Blackpool.
Presumably the services will operate to Preston if there is any delay.
They have also removed the Warrington stops as "too abstractive".

You have to give Alliance (Arriva/DB) credit for persisting with this application.
The DfT/ORR reckon it will cost the ICWC franchise about £25m per annum in revenue abstraction, and therefore reduces the scope for franchise improvements in the next round.
It also reopens the Alstom production line for UK tilting trains, after being thwarted by the ICWC bidding fiasco in 2012.
That ought to make it easier for other TOCs to add more orders (eg to replace Voyagers on the Euston-Birmingham-Scotland services, or even TPE Scottish services).
Very interesting development, proving Open Access is not dead (I think that was one of the objectives...).
 
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cle

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It's in North London - relatively busy inner London station. The busiest north of Paddington on the Bakerloo, and many Bakerloo trains terminate there (and thus start) so it makes good sense for outer train calls. It has platforms on the WCML slow lines and used to have Silverlink (LM) trains to MK etc stopping.

Platforms remain 8-car I believe and probably not in great nick, but the footbridge was rebuilt. Has some monitors. Tube and overground services are on wide platforms, so enough space for a few hundred off these services.

It is going to be quicker from there to many West End locations than via Euston, so it should definitely get some more fast services, if they can be timetabled. A bit like a Vauxhall or Finsbury Park. I'd say it's quicker to Paddington, Marylebone/Baker St, Piccadilly Circus, Bayswater and down, Southwark, Canary Wharf - a few others maybe. And Heathrow via Paddington definitely.
 

Domh245

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Couple of thoughts from me:

1) Will Blackpool be electrified by early 2018? Something for GRALISTAIR, LDECRexile, Joseph Locke & Co to muse about

2) How many staff are they looking to employ to work these 12 services a day. Staff management can't be any worse than certain other TOCs who've been in the limelight for all the wrong reasons of late

3) How many trains are they going to order. My guess is about 5 units - 3 operating the services, 1 spare and 1 for maintenance?

More insightful musing appreciated!
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Aldaniti

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Doomed to failure if it doesn't go into Euston. Effectively it's a Milton Keynes - Blackpool service. Nothing for Virgin to be bothered about, unfortunately.
 

The Planner

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Well, that should call Alliance's bluff on ordering new trains.

Glad someone has brought that up, I was thinking the same.

My impression is that ORR/NR have decided to approve these services despite their long-standing view that a timetable rewrite was necessary to allow more services.
The timetable rewrite has been pushed back repeatedly and there is no date for it now (well, some time before 2018).

Personally, I really don't think you will get a rewrite before 18, possibly even later due to HS2 and the impact on Euston.
 

Bungle965

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Doomed to failure if it doesn't go into Euston. Effectively it's a Milton Keynes - Blackpool service. Nothing for Virgin to be bothered about, unfortunately.

I beg to differ in that it is from Queens Park which is connected to the underground and is relatively close to the center of London also it should challenge virgin on its Blackpool working, because they have only got 2 trains a day and the new open access has many more.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Are they assuming the paths will come from the new flyover?

That gets you more paths north of Stafford, but doesn't change the situation on the critical section south of Rugby.
Bletchley and Watford are now complete of course, which might have helped.
WCML punctuality figures are still pretty dire.
 

Aldaniti

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I beg to differ in that it is from Queens Park which is connected to the underground and is relatively close to the center of London also it should challenge virgin on its Blackpool working, because they have only got 2 trains a day and the new open access has many more.

I hope I'm wrong and you're right. The WCML really needs some competition, but I have a strong feeling this isn't it.
 

route:oxford

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Oopsie...ORR have published the decision letter on their website without redacting the revenue generation and abstraction forecasts.

Another thing to note is that GNWR have only been granted firm rights for calls at Crewe, Preston and Poulton-le-Fylde. Queen's Park - Euston and calls at Milton Keynes Central, Nuneaton, Tamworth, Lichfield Trent Valley and Kirkham & Wesham are all on a contingent basis, thus dependent on network capacity.

If they don't get calls at MK, any chance of Bletchley?

Would potentially work well with E-W services.
 

Quakkerillo

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The trains aren't allowed to go into Euston, most probably. If it's a Queen's Park terminator, where are the trains supposed to bugger off to after terminating there? Next to the station is the Kilburn up goods loop. Further into Euston, they could get into the Camden Sidings. Or they'd have to go reverse immediately after terminating, crossing over to the Willesden Junction sidings. They can't just stay in the platform, as that'd disrupt LM services.
What do you reckon would be needed to get this working at all?
 

Bungle965

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The trains aren't allowed to go into Euston, most probably. If it's a Queen's Park terminator, where are the trains supposed to bugger off to after terminating there? Next to the station is the Kilburn up goods loop. Further into Euston, they could get into the Camden Sidings. Or they'd have to go reverse immediately after terminating, crossing over to the Willesden Junction sidings. They can't just stay in the platform, as that'd disrupt LM services.
What do you reckon would be needed to get this working at all?

Network Rail and Grand Central have agreed a plan to terminate services at Queen’s Park (London). Trains will then run ECS into the Kilburn Up and Down Goods Loop immediately east of the station. Turn-round time in the loop is expected to be between 15 and 40 minutes depending on the outcome of detailed timetable development work. This method of operation has been validated by Network Rail’s LNW Route Team. The only scheduled use of the loop in the current timetable is one train on a Saturday morning.
 

dgl

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Imagine the shock Alstom will get/must have got when alliance have/will call them and say "you know those pendolinos we keep asking you for prices of but never actually buy any, well we would like to actually place an order, not just a quote an order". They'd probably have to repeatedly check their calendar to make sure it's not the 1st of April or check to make sure it is not some prankster from these forums!
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Imagine the shock Alstom will get/must have got when alliance have/will call them and say "you know those pendolinos we keep asking you for prices of but never actually buy any, well we would like to actually place an order, not just a quote an order". They'd probably have to repeatedly check their calendar to make sure it's not the 1st of April or check to make sure it is not some prankster from these forums!

German bank to DB:
"You want £50m to do what? Sorry we are a bit busy just now with this Greece bailout thing." ;)
Seriously, I suppose it will go through a ROSCO (Angel?).
The 10-year deal is probably just enough to get it through.
The ROSCO would expect to lease the trains elsewhere on the WCML if it all goes wrong.
Maintenance I guess would be at Arriva Traincare (was LNWR) at Crewe, with backup from Alstom at Longsight.
 
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