Alliance Rail - East Coast Luxury Proposals

[al.currie93]

There are photos of the proposed interior on their website
www.gner.scot/gallery

Those 'seat pods' remind me somewhat of school examination tables or small university lecture theatres... definitely NOT what I'd call comfortable!

Also, I don't tend to associate the word 'Pendolino' with the words 'Luxury Travel' either.

 

[HH]

From another thread:

Well aren't they proposing to pay to have TASS installed north of Newcastle (or Darlington) so they can tilt? Would explain the choice of Pendolinos.

They're proposing balises at unspecified locations, absolute track geometry at certain locations and 'certain bits of structures that might need attention', providing they don't cost too much.

Others believe that rather more would be involved. If you have the patience the arguments and counter arguments can be found here.

 

[thenorthern]

From another thread:


They're proposing balises at unspecified locations, absolute track geometry at certain locations and 'certain bits of structures that might need attention', providing they don't cost too much.

Others believe that rather more would be involved. If you have the patience the arguments and counter arguments can be found here.

For the ECML I got the impression that GNER was going to use the Hitachi Super Express based on their literature.

 

[Jonny]

How do they intend to do this without jeopardising local services?

 

[HH]

For the ECML I got the impression that GNER was going to use the Hitachi Super Express based on their literature.

They're using those for the Cleethorpes/Bradford services, but not the Edinburgh ones. Their business case for Edinburgh seems to be based on running faster than VTEC and they think they can do this by using tilt.

 

[backontrack]

Why aren't they calling at York? Having them take up paths will jeopardise services there.

 

[HH]

How do they intend to do this without jeopardising local services?

Well that's one of things that people are arguing about.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why aren't they calling at York? Having them take up paths will jeopardise services there.

It would slow the service down. They have to pass the ORR's Not Primarily Abstractive test, and the way they are doing that is by saying that they're growing the Edinburgh/Newcastle markets by attracting travellers away from air due to the speed of their service. York has no air flow to London and adding the stop would add quite a few minutes to the service due to deceleration/acceleration time.

 

[thenorthern]

Why aren't they calling at York? Having them take up paths will jeopardise services there.

It would slow the service down. They have to pass the ORR's Not Primarily Abstractive test, and the way they are doing that is by saying that they're growing the Edinburgh/Newcastle markets by attracting travellers away from air due to the speed of their service. York has no air flow to London and adding the stop would add quite a few minutes to the service due to deceleration/acceleration time.

I think with Grand Central there was controversy about calling at York as at the time for GNER York was a lucrative stop but in the end GNER lost at the High Court.

I can't see Alliance Rail passing the not primarily abstracting revenue test for an East Coast service given that it is essentially duplicating a current service and they would also have to prove they aren't abstracting revenue from both VTEC and CrossCountry for Edinburgh to Newcastle services. If they did add TASS north of Newcastle though I wonder if CrossCountry would re-enable to tilt on the Class 221s.

Wasn't VTEC planning on using using their current Inter-City 225s on a new fast London to Edinburgh calling at Newcastle post IEP?

 

[ainsworth74]

I think with Grand Central there was controversy about calling at York as at the time for GNER York was a lucrative stop but in the end GNER lost at the High Court.

Probably worth pointing out that this would be the former TOC GNER not the proposed OAO GNER. Just make sure there is no confusion!

 

[Domh245]

If they did add TASS north of Newcastle though I wonder if CrossCountry would re-enable to tilt on the Class 221s.

I'd be surprised, as I think it wouldn't really bring any benefits to timings and would leave them unable to run their 220s and 221s as a common fleet.

 

[thenorthern]

Probably worth pointing out that this would be the former TOC GNER not the proposed OAO GNER. Just make sure there is no confusion!

That is a very good point.

 

[ainsworth74]

I'd be surprised, as I think it wouldn't really bring any benefits to timings and would leave them unable to run their 220s and 221s as a common fleet.

Indeed. There are already one or two places where they could use it currently but it doesn't really make sense as the potential journey time savings (which are minimal) are outweighed by the inability to interwork the 220 and 221 fleets.

I think that would apply just as much if the northern end of the ECML became TASS enabled.

That is a very good point.

I do try, not always successfully

 

[47802]

Those 'seat pods' remind me somewhat of school examination tables or small university lecture theatres... definitely NOT what I'd call comfortable!

Also, I don't tend to associate the word 'Pendolino' with the words 'Luxury Travel' either.

Nothing really wrong with the Pendolino as a train apart from the small windows and rubbish virgin interior. The virgin interior can always be changed and some newer Pendolinos in Europe have bigger windows, although obviously they have a bigger loading gauge as well.

I also don't see how this service is going to pass the abstraction test either

 

[Senex]

It would slow the service down. They have to pass the ORR's Not Primarily Abstractive test, and the way they are doing that is by saying that they're growing the Edinburgh/Newcastle markets by attracting travellers away from air due to the speed of their service. York has no air flow to London and adding the stop would add quite a few minutes to the service due to deceleration/acceleration time.

Quite a few minutes? A 2-minute York stop would cost 3 minutes, just like Newcastle.

However, I think you're correct in saying that it's the abstractive test in play. Yet if they get permission to run, and the Virgin operation introduces its regular London-Newcastle-Edinburgh then York does seem likely to lose out in the long run, even though passenger traffic at York at the moment is significantly more than at Newcastle.

 

[gazthomas]

I am confused as one of the GNER pictures says next stop Milton Keynes!

 

[backontrack]

Wasn't VTEC planning on using using their current Inter-City 225s on a new fast London to Edinburgh calling at Newcastle post IEP?

Not calling at York again?

 

[thenorthern]

To be honest I can't see an ECML Open Access fast service ever being allowed to be approved as Alliance Rail's GNER will have to show its not primarily abstracting revenue from both CrossCountry and VTEC between Edinburgh and Newcastle which will be hard.

It will also have to show it is not abstracting revenue from Edinburgh/Newcastle to London Kings Cross and I wouldn't be surprise if Virgin West Coast also put in a claim that they could potentially be abstracting revenue from their Edinburgh to London via Birmingham services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not calling at York again?

Yes I think so.

 

[deltic]

All the documentation about the hearings to decide access arrangements can be found here http://orr.gov.uk/what-and-how-we-regulate/track-access/current-work/east-coast-main-line

There was a lot of disagreement in the hearing about the impacts of the new services based on the work done by the ORR's consultants. Cant see I quick decision on any of this.

 

[HH]

Quite a few minutes? A 2-minute York stop would cost 3 minutes, just like Newcastle.

Is the train going as fast at Newcastle as it would be at York? They are (now) comparing 3hrs 45mins with VTEC's 3hrs 59. Every minute eats into their speed edge. Speed is the only bit that generates revenue.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I can't see Alliance Rail passing the not primarily abstracting revenue test

They already have. The argument now is about who is making best use of the limited paths.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

I am confused as one of the GNER pictures says next stop Milton Keynes!

Probably a "library" picture. Sister company GNWR want to run from bradford and huddersfield via guide bridge parkway and stockport to london euston, potentially using the same trains

 

[glbotu]

Is the train going as fast at Newcastle as it would be at York? They are (now) comparing 3hrs 45mins with VTEC's 3hrs 59. Every minute eats into their speed edge. Speed is the only bit that generates revenue.

Are you suggesting stopping at York and not Newcastle? I think that a) there aren't the paths and b) it makes their business case shakier.

ie: There IS still a Newcastle - London air flow, so they can justify their Newcastle stop. There is no York - London air flow AND they already have a York stop on Grand Central services. As such, an Edinburgh - York - London train doesn't pass the primarily abstractive test, as opposed to Edinburgh - Newcastle - London.

Also, I'd assume that just running Edinburgh - London is off the cards, because they wouldn't make any money at all.

 

[HH]

Are you suggesting stopping at York and not Newcastle?

No. Quite the opposite.

 

[thenorthern]

I know its impossible with todays stock but if there was a way of changing drivers without stopping like there was on the Flying Scotsman I would think Alliance GNER would consider running a daily non-stop London to Edinburgh service rather like the Manchester/Birmingham to London fast morning services.

As such trains don't exist though its not going to happen.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

I know its impossible with todays stock but if there was a way of changing drivers without stopping like there was on the Flying Scotsman I would think Alliance GNER would consider running a daily non-stop London to Edinburgh service rather like the Manchester/Birmingham to London fast morning services.

As such trains don't exist though its not going to happen.

Would it not be possible to add connecting doors from the cab into the body of a train if they are ordering new spec Pendolino? This would allow a second driver to take the controls later in the journey.

The admin issues might be more to deal with, drivers for the first sections would probably have to lay over in Edinburgh/London and return the next day.

 

[thenorthern]

Would it not be possible to add connecting doors from the cab into the body of a train if they are ordering new spec Pendolino? This would allow a second driver to take the controls later in the journey.

The admin issues might be more to deal with, drivers for the first sections would probably have to lay over in Edinburgh/London and return the next day.

Its possible to enter the cab of Pendos while the train is moving already although there would need to be a kind of auto-pilot function to over-ride the deadmans switch which I doubt would pass health and safety legislation.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

An Edinburgh-London service with private compartment-style accommodation, premium provision (e.g. a bar and restaurant), and timed so that it takes the minimum amount of time out of your working day... that sounds great.

Swear I've seen the concept somewhere else though. Here maybe?

 

[backontrack]

And very successful it was too.

I've never done the sleeper before, but it's meant to have been more like a moving Travelodge before Serco took over, rejected Local Easements and advertised it as a luxury service.

 

[Pinza-C55]

"Individual compartments would be provided in first class, similar to those in some long-haul aircraft."

That will be fantastic news for the vast majority of rail passengers :roll:

 

[thenorthern]

How big are these individual compartments going to be? If they were big enough to hold a staff meeting then I reckon their could be a market for companies using the compartments for private meetings when their staff are traveling to functions or events.

The height of real luxury that I an still waiting for on a train is WIFI that doesn't cut out every 15 bl@@dy seconds.

 

[WatcherZero]

Still seems to be furious letter writing back and forth on this.

Alliance haven't funded a NR study into tilt which they said they would, they are saying they are waiting on the resolution of power supply issues first.
NR now questions whether 8 paths is possible, indeed whether even 7 or 7.5 is possible before 2021 without a timetable recast and extra enhancement work.
In addition to the question of whether the East Coast overhead had enough capacity for more electrical services in Scotland there is now a question as to whether there is enough capacity at Doncaster because a planned North Transpennine substation has been postponed.

Was also an article in the Times comparing the two OAO proposals and noting only one if any could be approved. Alliance now seem to be talking about a nine car Pendolino with 3 classes including a 'super premium' 1+1 seating rather than when they made the original application and were talking about private compartments with prices in the £100-£250 range, meanwhile First is talking about an all standard class configuration with 'Easyjet' style pricing and no frills (no catering?) with prices in the £40-50 range.