Allegations by GTR that ticket was previously used

[soil]

basically your question is 'I was convicted in my absence of a criminal offence on 7th October 2016, as the court failed to send out a summons, a conviction I became aware of in October 2016 - can I now (March 2017) get the conviction set aside?'

The rail stuff is - until that question is resolved - basically irrelevant. You certainly don't need a specialist rail solicitor at this point, although a general criminal lawyer who can handle getting the conviction set aside would help!

 

[Dlougo]

I paid a total of £26.65 for both the outbound and return trips. £40 seems a ridiculously high amount, I have never paid anywhere near that amount.

I will seek further advice at the forum you have advised, thank you. In my mind it seems like I should easily be able to appeal and re-open as I was never informed of when to come, so the bigger issue is still the railway rather than re-opening the case in my head at least. I am hoping that I should easily be able to get the case reopened as I have contacted the courts multiple times regarding the issue and nothing seems to have done anything about it, or they have advised me to do the wrong thing - and then the issue of the case itself can be dealt with. Thank you anyway though

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hang on a minute...I've just read the statement by the RPI.

Is it really saying the ticket was swiped through the barrier at 1135 on the original day of validity, not on the day of travel, therefore he felt a clear case of re-use? It certainly reads that way.

 

[Dlougo]

I don't believe so - if he's saying it was used on the 19th there are some real issues, my outward journey was on the 20th.

 

[soil]

I paid a total of £26.65 for both the outbound and return trips. £40 seems a ridiculously high amount, I have never paid anywhere near that amount.

Yes that would be the correct amount if you had a railcard. However in that case two single tickets (at the weekend) is still cheaper (around £12 each).

I will seek further advice at the forum you have advised, thank you. In my mind it seems like I should easily be able to appeal and re-open

I have no idea. I think you should confirm this fact first!

 

[matt_world2004]

Op do you remember any reason why you might have placed an return portion of an off peak return through a ticket barrier onky an hour after buying it? I think the short time between purchase and return usage would seem to indicate that the op didnt actually use the return portion to make a journey?

 

[Dlougo]

I have absolutely no reason to believe I used it after collecting, I can't remember why I was at Kings cross on this date, but I have a collection ticket dated the 10th for this journey (matching ToD CTR). The outbound journey was on the 20th, so I don't believe I was on any trains on the 10th of March.

 

[cuccir]

One piece of good news is, whatever the outcome here, you have been prosecuted under the Railway Bylaws. This does not create a criminal record, so you don't have to declare it when applying for jobs. While you should continue to contest it, this may mean that a solicitor isn't worth the money. You should see what legal support your university or the NUS can offer.

However, it may be that solicitor is useful in getting the original conviction overturned.

 

[DaleCooper]

From what I've read here I can think of only one reason why the RPI may have thought the ticket was invalid which is that he/she believed the barriers at Peterborough were not in operation that morning (which is often the case in my experience) which would lead them to think the time stamp was from a different day. Is the date recorded as well?

 

[bb21]

Op do you remember any reason why you might have placed an return portion of an off peak return through a ticket barrier onky an hour after buying it? I think the short time between purchase and return usage would seem to indicate that the op didnt actually use the return portion to make a journey?

I don't think he did from what he was saying. The incident happened on 3rd April 2016. The ticket was issued on 19th March 2016.

 

[soil]

From what I've read here I can think of only one reason why the RPI may have thought the ticket was invalid which is that he/she believed the barriers at Peterborough were not in operation that morning (which is often the case in my experience) which would lead them to think the time stamp was from a different day. Is the date recorded as well?

According to various sources, yes it is:

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/magnetic_strip_data

http://www.ukclique.com/ticket-machines-at-mainline-stations-south-t793587/5

However, it is not clear in fact whether the FIRST swipe is perpetually stored, or merely the LAST one.

It appears possible that it is in fact only the last one? In which case if the ticket was entered to the machine on the date of the questioning, then it would obliterate any evidence of previous use.

It seems clear enough that there is no way to store more than one swipe on the ticket.

 

[DaleCooper]

According to various sources, yes it is:

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/magnetic_strip_data

http://www.ukclique.com/ticket-machines-at-mainline-stations-south-t793587/5

However, it is not clear in fact whether the FIRST swipe is perpetually stored, or merely the LAST one.

It appears possible that it is in fact only the last one? In which case if the ticket was entered to the machine on the date of the questioning, then it would obliterate any evidence of previous use.

It seems clear enough that there is no way to store more than one swipe on the ticket.

It was this bit ...

He put it through his handheld device and told me that it supposedly had in fact been used previously. He said he would send it off to their offices and it would get checked on a more accurate computer.

... that made me wonder if the hand held device read time but not date which is why the "more accurate computer" was required.

 

[soil]

It was this bit ...



... that made me wonder if the hand held device read time but not date which is why the "more accurate computer" was required.

There is no conceivable reason why a hand-held device could read the time but not the date. The total amount of data encoded on the ticket is around 30 characters, so not really much to it.

The most likely explanation is that he HOPED he could get more info out of the ticket using a more accurate computer, this however implies that there is a lot of data storable on a 1970s-vintage magnetic stripe, which is just not the case, however I rather suspect that magnetic data coding is not part of the GTR training?

 

[westcoaster]

From my avantix machine training and usage 10 years ago, a swipe would show

A station code
Time and date entered

The way I read that it that the passenger might have been holding an off peak day return. Can you find the fare by the code 39245.

Looking on national rail the

off peak return is £28.10
Anytime fare £31.80

The fare due on the MG11 is £31.30 so allowing for fare increases to the now £31.80 fare I think he held an off peak day return not open return.

 

[gray1404]

Can the OP please confirm exactly what ticket they were travelling on? Perhaps you still have the email confirmation from when you booked online. Please specify the TICKET TYPE.

 

[Sprinter153]

In my experience with my TOC's equipment if you access the Tertiary Functions > Ticket Swipe menu on an Avantix and swipe an unused ticket it will often show the date and time of issue as the 'last use' or even sometimes the date of issue and the time that it was last inserted into the barrier, even if it was on a different date. I certainly wouldn't use it as any basis to prove a ticket has been used or not.

 

[Hadders]

If the OP paid £26.65 then this was the price last year of a rail card discounted Off Peak Return from Peterborough to London Terminals Great Northern Only

 

[gray1404]

If that's the case then the OPs ticket would have had a return validity of a calendar month as an off peak return.

 

[najaB]

If that's the case then the OPs ticket would have had a return validity of a calendar month as an off peak return.

I believe that was established in the very first post.

 

[gray1404]

I thought that too but then questions arose as to if the OP was actually using a"day" ticket - rather than a period return.

 

[soil]

I thought that too but then questions arose as to if the OP was actually using a"day" ticket - rather than a period return.

the witness statement from GTR clearly states an off-peak return was offered. this is not a day ticket.

 

[gray1404]

From my avantix machine training and usage 10 years ago, a swipe would show

A station code
Time and date entered

The way I read that it that the passenger might have been holding an off peak day return. Can you find the fare by the code 39245.

Looking on national rail the

off peak return is £28.10
Anytime fare £31.80

The fare due on the MG11 is £31.30 so allowing for fare increases to the now £31.80 fare I think he held an off peak day return not open return.

This is the post that threw me.

Yes, I am of the impression (and saw from the paperwork) that it was an Off Peak Return too.

 

[Dlougo]

I can confirm that I had an off-peak return, usable within a month of the outward journey on GTR trains.

 

[Tetchytyke]

In my experience with my TOC's equipment if you access the Tertiary Functions > Ticket Swipe menu on an Avantix and swipe an unused ticket it will often show the date and time of issue as the 'last use'

There was another thread on here recently about a GTR RPI who said exactly the same thing, except that time it was a carnet ticket at Cambridge. Turns out it was the date and time of issue.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=139879&highlight=Cambridge

They really are gormless, aren't they? Gormless but very nasty.

 

[Tetchytyke]

basically your question is 'I was convicted in my absence of a criminal offence on 7th October 2016, as the court failed to send out a summons, a conviction I became aware of in October 2016 - can I now (March 2017) get the conviction set aside?'

Yep, that's pretty much it. All the talk of whether the GTR RPI was wrong- and I'm guessing that he almost certainly was- is just wibble. If you can't get the conviction set aside, none of it matters. You owe the fine, and not to GTR either, to the Court.

If the Court won't accept your Stat Dec, you need to go speak to a criminal law solicitor, and pronto. It's not something you have long to sort out.

 

[yorkie]

They really are gormless, aren't they? Gormless but very nasty.

Very true; I've posted here about some of their antics. In another case, a forum member had the contents of his ticket wallet confiscated by Southern Rail (now GTR) RPIs because he was using the new style tickets when they were not issued in the South and they hadn't seen them before, so assumed they were fake tickets.

When travelling by rail it can be extremely important to know both your rights and your responsibilities, and ensure you are prepared to calmly deal with false accusations. While the vast majority of passenger/staff interactions are very positive (especially outside the London & surrounding area), the fact is that there are some people whose job it is to check tickets who see it as their job to make up rules and to catch people out. It's important to be prepared to deal with such unsavoury individuals, especially if travelling on certain routes. You can't be complacent and if false allegations are made it's very important not to say anything incriminating (they may try to trip you up) and to seek advice at the earliest opportunity.

I hope people reading threads such as these can be prepared because you never know when false accusations may happen to you. It can happen to anyone.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They really are gormless, aren't they? Gormless but very nasty.

The odd gormless RPI I can handle, but the Prosecutions Department should have seen this and put it in the bin where it belongs. It should never have got to Court. Indeed, there should really be a criminal sanction for wasting Court time with this kind of rubbish.

TBH it just provides further ammunition to the view that the Byelaws and RoRA should be repealed as the Railway cannot be trusted to manage a criminal offence properly, and should simply have to sue in a civil court for the money owed like any other business.

 

[AlterEgo]

The odd gormless RPI I can handle, but the Prosecutions Department should have seen this and put it in the bin where it belongs. It should never have got to Court. Indeed, there should really be a criminal sanction for wasting Court time with this kind of rubbish.

TBH it just provides further ammunition to the view that the Byelaws and RoRA should be repealed as the Railway cannot be trusted to manage a criminal offence properly, and should simply have to sue in a civil court for the money owed like any other business.

Agree entirely.

This is one of the stupidest cases ever to grace Disputes and Prosecutions. I'm dumstruck by how incompetent GTR are.

 

[SA_900]

GTR really are appalling. Is there something unique to their incentive structure that encourages this kind of behaviour?

 

[Bletchleyite]

GTR really are appalling. Is there something unique to their incentive structure that encourages this kind of behaviour?

It appears they are just rotten from top to bottom when it comes to revenue protection.