'All Zones' travelcard which isn't

[John @ home]

No. It should not be retained because it is still valid on local bus services.

I don't think that's the case from Watford Junction, only for travelcard within the zones. Once you leave the zones your travelcard ceases to be valid. The ticket is basically a day return from Watford Junction to the zones and then a travelcard.

I agree that, for long distance Travelcards, it can sometimes be convenient to think of the product as a day return, or season ticket, from the origin to Boundary Zone 6 plus a ticket for unlimited travel within Zones 1-6, or whatever Zones are printed on the ticket.

But that does not imply that a Travelcard expires on arrival back at the origin station in the way that an ordinary return ticket does. In the early days of automatic ticket barriers, this did cause difficulties at railway stations just outside the zones precisely because these new automatic ticket barriers were set to retain the Day Travelcards. Passengers were very displeased because their Travelcards were still valid for the bus home from the station.

These difficulties were resolved by the setting of these automatic ticket barriers not to retain Day Travelcards and the addition of the words I quoted in post #21 to the National Fares Manuals, which meant that they became part of the contract between the passenger and the British Railways Board. As far as I am aware, it remains the position that the words are part of the contract between the passenger and the train companies. Does anyone have any evidence to the contrary?

I am confident we would have heard complaints on this forum if the automatic ticket barriers had again been set to retain Day Travelcards.

Is it possible that there is a restriction on it meaning it is valid on the LOROL services but not the LM ones ( between watford and Harrow anyway... )?

I think it's unlikely because any such restriction would be valid only if it is shown on the ticket.

B. VALIDITY OF TICKETS

10. Tickets valid only in trains of particular Train Companies
The validity of a ticket may:
a) be restricted to; or
b) prohibit
travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies. Any such restriction or prohibition will be shown on the ticket.

These restrictions are normally shown in the "Route" field on the ticket. We have already established that the words in the "Route" field on these tickets are "AAA LDN ZONE 7-9", meaning Also Available at London Zones 7-9.

 

[jon0844]

At Potters Bar, there used to be a sign to say you must speak to staff if you wish to keep your Travelcard, as the gates keep them. You can use a Travelcard on many buses outside the station, even though you're outside Z6 on the trains/tube (if the tube went that far).

I am guessing the gates still keep them, and do so even when the gates are open and all the staff have gone home - which must mean that anyone silly enough (and plenty do) to use the ticket validator even when the gate is open will lose their TC.

 

[W-on-Sea]

According to my collection of vintage tube maps, the original arrangement was Zone 1, Zone 2, Zone 3A, Zone 3B and Zone 3C... I assume there were some "Zone 3" fares that covered A, B and C?

The reason for this was that, whereas the tube had these five zones, buses only had three zones ; therefore a travelcard valid on the tubes in , say, zones 3b and 3c, was valid on buses anywhere in the whole of zone 3 (ie 3a, 3b and 3c). Those old travelcards used to have some quite attractive Spirograph-style graphics on too.

(In fact: the very original arrangement for zones on the underground, , in the early 80s, had two zones within what became zone 1, the "west end" and "city" zones, with several stations in the middle in both. I can't quite remember how that related to the "inner zone" - that became zone 2, and the "outer zone" - that became zones 3, 4, 5 and 6, or what tickets were available under this system. I think this was just before travelcards were introduced, but some season tickets were available to the whole of the two central london zones, instead of just point-to-point...)

A few years back (perhaps in preparation for Oyster) all travelcards were made valid on all TfL Bus services, thereby meaning that, whereas there are now more train/tube zones than ever, there is now, effectively, only one zone for buses (and that does indeed stretch out to Watford Junction, and for that matter to Chafford Hundred, but not to Chorleywood or anywhere beyond there on the Met, or indeed Watford Met).

 

[causton]

At Potters Bar, there used to be a sign to say you must speak to staff if you wish to keep your Travelcard, as the gates keep them. You can use a Travelcard on many buses outside the station, even though you're outside Z6 on the trains/tube (if the tube went that far).

I am guessing the gates still keep them, and do so even when the gates are open and all the staff have gone home - which must mean that anyone silly enough (and plenty do) to use the ticket validator even when the gate is open will lose their TC.

I'm sure this is still the case, however as said you can show the travelcard to station staff. Plus, when the staff are gone the gates are open and the ticket slots prevent any tickets going in!
(Bonus points if anyone can tell me a valid reason for Potters Bar not being inside the zones while Elstree & Borehamwood is )

 

[Zoe]

I asked about Watford Junction elsewhere and was informed that the barrires at Watford Junction do indeed retain travelcards. The ticket is valid for unlimited travel within the zones 1 - 9 plus ONE return trip from Watford Junction to Watford High Street or Bushey. I was also told that from an LU station you'd have to get an extension to go out to Watford Junction and that the travelcard does indeed cease to be vaild when you leave the zones. I can't find anything official on this either way.

 

[tony_mac]

You can definitely buy a Watford Junction travelcard from London underground stations. (at the same price as buying one at Watford).
Would that mean when you get back into London you can no longer use the travelcard as the ticket is not valid any more? Why should it be different the other way round?

 

[MikeWh]

I asked about Watford Junction elsewhere and was informed that the barrires at Watford Junction do indeed retain travelcards. The ticket is valid for unlimited travel within the zones 1 - 9 plus ONE return trip from Watford Junction to Watford High Street or Bushey. I was also told that from an LU station you'd have to get an extension to go out to Watford Junction and that the travelcard does indeed cease to be vaild when you leave the zones. I can't find anything official on this either way.

In the case of a travelcard starting at Watford Junction you are correct apart from the bit about it ceasing to be valid on leaving the zones. It would not be valid again to/from Watford Junction, but were you to use other means to get back into the zones then it would still be valid for travel inside the zones until 4.30am the next day. Most people probably wouldn't want to use it again but you would be within your rights to retain it.

The other way round the extension is a separate ticket which has no bearing on the travelcard at all. If it's a return from BZ9 to Watford Junction then you would definitely still need the travelcard on your return to the zones.

 

[tony_mac]

TFL lump Watford Junction (and Grays) in with all the other zones; nowhere does it say only one return journey is allowed.
The Oyster Daily price cap is the same price as a travelcard; which also suggests that multiple journeys are allowed.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14414.aspx
I am reasonably sure it is issued as a zones 1-9+Watford jn travelcard, and not as any sort of extension ticket.

 

[W-on-Sea]

In any case, because of the different way the zones operate for buses, it would still be valid (like any Travelcard, even one for just zones 1 and 2) on the TfL bus routes that run to Watford Junction - I can't see any justification for the barriers to retain the ticket whatsoever.

 

[Zoe]

In any case, because of the different way the zones operate for buses, it would still be valid (like any Travelcard, even one for just zones 1 and 2) on the TfL bus routes that run to Watford Junction - I can't see any justification for the barriers to retain the ticket whatsoever.

If that was the case though there would be nothing to stop you walking over to Watford Met(in the zones) and using it to go back into London. Do the barriers retain the travelcards to prevent this?

 

[MikeWh]

I don't think they should retain them. They are a travelcard first and foremost, with an extra bit added on to allow one return journey to the zones and back. A day travelcard is valid until 4.30am the next morning.

The oyster impact is interesting. From the Grays group of stations it is actually cheaper to get an off-peak day travelcard than to use oyster up to the cap because TfL set the cap wrongly. However, I do believe that you can use your card as many times as you like between Grays stations and zone 6, which may make using Oyster worthwhile after all. The same is probably true of Watford Junction as well. However, in both cases, just because Oyster is accepted from these stations does not put them within the standard travelcard area. If you are buying paper tickets then it is just the same as it's always been, AFAIK.