'All Zones' travelcard which isn't

[sheff1]

On Sat I used the FCC ticket machines at St Pancras to purchase a Travelcard and spotted an error.

There is a button entitled 'All Zones Travelcard' but if you use this, what is actually issued is a Zone1-6 travelcard. When the price was displayed I knew that was the cost of a Zone1-6 and as that what I wanted anyway I went ahead (I hadn't seen a 1-6 option).

Someone not familiar with the price and wanting to travel to, say, Carpenders Park or Amersham could end up with a supposed All Zones ticket which didn't cover them at either place even though both are in Zones - 7 & 9 respectively. This could cause difficulties and even result in a Penalty Fare unless inspectors in the London Zones are aware that tickets being issued at St Pancras (and presumably other FCC stations) are not as advertised/required.

I know people are supposed to check their tickets, but that is easier said than done if you are not a regular user. If you did spot the error and took the ticket to the booking office for exchange, would that be possible - I am not sure how tickets from machines are handled if you get the wrong one, either by your own error or, in this case, system error ?

 

[Greenback]

Mistakes can be rectified on the spot if you go to the ticket office straight away (assuming there is one and it's open!). By straight away I mean within a reasonable period of time, IIRC we used to allow half an hour or so in Reading before asking questions!

The All Zones card was traditionally zones 1-6. Additional zones were added to places outisde the old GLC boundary but colloquially the 1-6 were known as all zones for many years.

It all probably needs a great deal of tidying up to stop any confusion, but then we can say that about the whole ticketing system! To me, though, this just shows up yet another reason why TVM's should not be regarded as replacements for ticket offices, but as supplemental facilities to them.

 

[MikeWh]

Yes, it's a bit of an anomaly because as Greenback said, originally there were only 6 zones. I'd guess that machines at Marylebone, Euston and of course the Underground all have clearer branding as those are the places you could actually be travelling direct into zones 7-9 from. Also, now a fair proportion of daily travelcards are actually capped on PAYG Oyster cards it's not so much of a problem.

Edit: It's interesting how zones 7-9 came about on lines which go much further beyond even those new zones, while short branches were actually just added to zone 6. E.g. Caterham, Tattenham Corner, Epsom Downs, Epping.

 

[Mojo]

A lot of National Rail stations don't seem capable of issuing Zone 1-9 Travelcards. I wanted a Zone 1-9 card at Feltham the other week and was asked if I meant Zone 1-6. When I said no the clerk looked confused and asked me where I wanted to go. When I told her Amersham she got out her Tube map and looked surprised when she saw that, indeed, Zone 9 does exist. She said she could only issue a 1-6 and that I'd have to buy an extension when I get to Zone 9.

 

[John @ home]

originally there were only 6 zones.

When the Travelcard was introduced in 1983 there were five zones. Zone 5 was split in 1991 into Zones 5 and 6.

 

[MikeWh]

When the Travelcard was introduced in 1983 there were five zones. Zone 5 was split in 1991 into Zones 5 and 6.

So it was. I'd forgotten about that. I feel old now realising that I actually remember the travelcard's predecessor, the capitalcard.

 

[John @ home]

I actually remember the travelcard's predecessor, the capitalcard.

The Capitalcard was only the predecessor from the point of view of the passenger at some British Rail stations.

I was one of those passengers. The Cambridge - R1235 Londn Capitalcard was a useful ticket to me. There was no equivalent Travelcard at that time.

In 1983, ... a new inter-modal Travelcard season ticket was launched covering five new numbered zones ... . The One Day Travelcard was launched in 1984 and on weekdays was only sold for travel after 09.30. In January 1985 the Capitalcard season ticket was launched, offering validity on British Rail services as well as London Underground and London Buses. ... In June 1986 the One Day Capitalcard was launched. The Capitalcard brand ended in January 1989 when the Travelcard gained validity on British Rail. In January 1991 Zone 5 was split to create a new Zone 6.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travelcard

yorkie will be interested in the use of the word sold rather than valid on Wikipedia. I don't know whether this use is accurate.

 

[dan_atki]

A lot of National Rail stations don't seem capable of issuing Zone 1-9 Travelcards. I wanted a Zone 1-9 card at Feltham the other week and was asked if I meant Zone 1-6. When I said no the clerk looked confused and asked me where I wanted to go. When I told her Amersham she got out her Tube map and looked surprised when she saw that, indeed, Zone 9 does exist. She said she could only issue a 1-6 and that I'd have to buy an extension when I get to Zone 9.

It needs to be issued with a named zone 9 station as the origin and 'London Zones 1-6' as the destination. The route is 'AAA LDN ZONE 7-9' (also available at London Zones 7-9).

It is possible but most clerks will never have encountered it and will not be aware of how to issue such a ticket unless you politely instruct them the procedure.

I remember a time I asked a clerk for a ticket to 'Waterloo East' to be asked 'where's that? It's not showing on here'. Although I was tempted to reply 'East of Waterloo!' I said 'London, try code WAE', which did the trick - she discovered that it needed 'London' before it.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Thanks Dan_Atki for that, I have never been asked for a travelcard to zone 9 but at least I now know how to issue one even though I seriously doubt I will ever be asked for one.

Origin NLC 0506

Dest NLC 0035

Rte AAA LDN ZONE 7-9

ADT £16.20
ODT £9.00

 

[Deerfold]

It seems Zones A-C (and later D) existed in 1997, so it's some time since 1-6 was all zones. I know I've had a Zone 1-D ticket since 2001.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stations_in_London_fare_zones_7–9,_G_and_W

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Can this AAA LDN ZONE 7-9 be issued from stations outside Zone 6 where there is no zone higher, for example from Epsom?

 

[dan_atki]

Can this AAA LDN ZONE 7-9 be issued from stations outside Zone 6 where there is no zone higher, for example from Epsom?

Afraid not - it's inboundary travelcards only (i.e. for those wholly within the zones), with the exception of Watford Junction which has its own special case.

From outside the zones you can only buy Zone 1-6 travelcards, even from WCML stations north of Watford and Chiltern stations west of Amersham.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Hmmm... so if I wanted to get the most out of the A stock before it goes I'll have to walk to Ewell West and I can presumably by the 9 zoner from there?

 

[yorkie]

Ask for it from Bushey and that should do the trick.

 

[MikeWh]

Hmmm... so if I wanted to get the most out of the A stock before it goes I'll have to walk to Ewell West and I can presumably by the 9 zoner from there?

You may be able to buy it from Epsom, but it won't be valid from there. I think that is what is being said. You can buy a return to zones 1-6 from Epsom, but not to zones 1-9. So you could buy a return from Epsom to Ewell West and a travelcard from Bushey to zones 1-9.

 

[dan_atki]

You may be able to buy it from Epsom, but it won't be valid from there. I think that is what is being said. You can buy a return to zones 1-6 from Epsom, but not to zones 1-9. So you could buy a return from Epsom to Ewell West and a travelcard from Bushey to zones 1-9.

Indeed, that is exactly what is being said - sorry I wasn't clear enough.

You cannot get an Epsom to London Zones 1-6 route AAA LDN ZONE 7-9, or indeed even an Epsom to London Zones 1-9 ticket - the origin itself must be in zones 7-9 or be Watford Junction, with the destination London Zones 1-6 to get the additional availability in 7-9. You cannot even get the additional availability at say Milton Keynes Central or Wendover.

Of course, these tickets are available to purchase at any ticket office in Great Britain.

 

[Greenback]

When the Travelcard was introduced in 1983 there were five zones. Zone 5 was split in 1991 into Zones 5 and 6.

So it was. I'd forgotten about that. I feel old now realising that I actually remember the travelcard's predecessor, the capitalcard.

I didn't know that. I first encountered a Travelcard in 1993 when i went to London for a week!

The Capitalcard was only the predecessor from the point of view of the passenger at some British Rail stations.

I was one of those passengers. The Cambridge - R1235 Londn Capitalcard was a useful ticket to me. There was no equivalent Travelcard at that time.yorkie will be interested in the use of the word sold rather than valid on Wikipedia. I don't know whether this use is accurate.

People were still asking for Capitalcards in Reading in 2001!

I must admit that from the point of view of someone not living in the South East any more, the fares in and around London seem to be very, very confusing these days. Could I buy a 1-9 Travelcard at Reading these days, and if not why not? (sorry if it's a dumb question!)

 

[mallard]

When the Travelcard was introduced in 1983 there were five zones. Zone 5 was split in 1991 into Zones 5 and 6.

According to my collection of vintage tube maps, the original arrangement was Zone 1, Zone 2, Zone 3A, Zone 3B and Zone 3C... I assume there were some "Zone 3" fares that covered A, B and C?

 

[dan_atki]

I must admit that from the point of view of someone not living in the South East any more, the fares in and around London seem to be very, very confusing these days. Could I buy a 1-9 Travelcard at Reading these days, and if not why not? (sorry if it's a dumb question!)

You could buy a travelcard at Reading that is valid solely within Zones 1-9, but not Reading to Zones 1-9 (i.e. including Reading to Hayes and Harlington). You can buy a Reading to Zones 1-6 travelcard, however.

I suspect the reason is historical. A few years ago it was zones 1-6 and A, B, C, and D. The very fact they were lettered (rather than numbered) indicates they were considered outcasts - a theory I think is the same now. Therefore, an 'all zones Travelcard' would be zones 1-6 (avoiding the outcasts).

Now, something that was explained to me is why you can only get say Reading to Zones 1-6 and not Reading to Zones 1-2, or Zones 1-4. Simply put, the answer is 'you have to travel through zones 6, 5, 4, and 3 to get there so the travelcard includes all of them'.

If this reasoning is true, it does make me wonder the answer of a question similar in nature. Why are fares from Great Missenden - Aylesbury Vale Parkway inclusive to the Travelcard area only zones 1-6, and not the option for 1-9 (consider you travel through zones 9, 8, and 7 to get there!). Likewise for stations between say Kings Langley and Rugby (as a random cut off point).

Indeed, one could also argue why stations in zones 7-9 (and also Watford Junction) do not sell plain Travelcards to Zones 1-6, on the converse.

I think, we may never know the true answer to your (or indeed my own) questions!

 

[Zoe]

You cannot get an Epsom to London Zones 1-6 route AAA LDN ZONE 7-9, or indeed even an Epsom to London Zones 1-9 ticket - the origin itself must be in zones 7-9 or be Watford Junction, with the destination London Zones 1-6 to get the additional availability in 7-9.

However, if it was issued at Watford Junction it would only act as a travelcard within zones 1-6 I would have though. Once you cross the boundary on return then it's no longer valid as a travelcard and can only be used to complete your journey and indeed would be retained by the barriers at Watford Junction.

 

[John @ home]

Once you cross the boundary on return then it's no longer valid as a travelcard and can only be used to complete your journey and indeed would be retained by the barriers at Watford Junction.

No. It should not be retained because it is still valid on local bus services.

they provide unlimited travel on - ...
Bus - Any Travelcard, irrespective of the Zone(s) for which it is issued is also valid on all London Bus services, except certain special services and excursions. Travelcards are also available on some London Bus services that operate beyond the Travelcard boundary and customers should be permitted to retain tickets for use on these services where required

 

[Zoe]

No. It should not be retained because it is still valid on local bus services.

I don't think that's the case from Watford Junction, only for travelcard within the zones. Once you leave the zones your travelcard ceases to be valid. The ticket is basically a day return from Watford Junction to the zones and then a travelcard.

 

[dan_atki]

I don't think that's the case from Watford Junction, only for travelcard within the zones. Once you leave the zones your travelcard ceases to be valid. The ticket is basically a day return from Watford Junction to the zones and then a travelcard.

Watford Junction is an odd one. A 1-9+WFJ travelcard is a travelcard to Watford Junction as well (as if it was in zone 9), presumably as an agreement with London Overground and London Midland, not just a return as any other station outside of the zones.

 

[Zoe]

Watford Junction is an odd one. A 1-9+WFJ travelcard is a travelcard to Watford Junction as well (as if it was in zone 9), presumably as an agreement with London Overground and London Midland, not just a return as any other station outside of the zones.

Is it available from Watford Junction station though?

 

[dan_atki]

Is it available from Watford Junction station though?

Yes it is issued as Watford Junction to London Zones 1-6 route AAA LDN ZONE 7-9.

Granted, there is nothing to say there that it allows unlimited travel to Watford Junction and wording on the TfL site is sketchy at best, but it is marketed as a 'Zone 1-9 + Watford Junction Travelcard' to use TfL speak.

 

[Zoe]

Granted, there is nothing to say there that it allows unlimited travel to Watford Junction and wording on the TfL site is sketchy at best, but it is marketed as a 'Zone 1-9 + Watford Junction Travelcard' to use

So can you confirm unlimited travel is allowed on it? I thought the reason Watford Junction wasn't in zone 9 was that London Midland didn't want people benefiting from unlimted travel to and from Watford Junction.

 

[dan_atki]

So can you confirm unlimited travel is allowed on it? I thought the reason Watford Junction wasn't in zone 9 was that London Midland didn't want people benefiting from unlimted travel to and from Watford Junction.

I think the way it is marketed is unambiguous (at least in my eyes). If they did not consider Watford Junction to be part of the Travelcard's validity then it's not a ticket I believe TfL would sell - they cannot issue Rxxxx Zones to [Random station in NSE area] tickets - the converse of what NR stations sell.

The travelcard price of 1-9+WFJ is significantly higher than just that of 1-9 (£5.20 more off peak - a bit more than the return to Watford High Street) and is priced by London Midland, assumedly at an arrangement with TfL/LO.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Is it possible that there is a restriction on it meaning it is valid on the LOROL services but not the LM ones ( between watford and Harrow anyway... )?

 

[dan_atki]

However, if it was issued at Watford Junction it would only act as a travelcard within zones 1-6 I would have though. Once you cross the boundary on return then it's no longer valid as a travelcard and can only be used to complete your journey and indeed would be retained by the barriers at Watford Junction.

As a side note and to expand on what John said above, an 'outboundary' travelcard does not cease to be a travelcard once you leave the zones.

I could request, upon my return at Reading, that I wish to keep the ticket for further journeys wholly within zones 1-6. Obviously, I would need another ticket to get me back to zone 6.

 

[MikeWh]

As a side note and to expand on what John said above, an 'outboundary' travelcard does not cease to be a travelcard once you leave the zones.

I could request, upon my return at Reading, that I wish to keep the ticket for further journeys wholly within zones 1-6. Obviously, I would need another ticket to get me back to zone 6.

And while there won't be any TfL buses in Reading, if you take Dartford or Greenhithe as examples, neither are within the travelcard area but the three TfL buses to Bluewater all accept travelcards and Oyster throughout, so it would be quite natural to want to continue to use them on return from London.