All line rail rover restriction question

[EveningStar]

Terms for the all line rail rover state it is, "NOT valid for boarding or alighting train services ... before 10:00 Mondays to Fridays at ... London Euston". Now I read that as actually alighting at Euston, so it would be acceptable for me to join the 0715 from Manchester Piccadilly (Euston 0928) and alight at Milton Keynes Central (which paradoxically suits my plans anyway). Is my interpretation correct or am I asking for trouble?

 

[AlterEgo]

Terms for the all line rail rover state it is, "NOT valid for boarding or alighting train services ... before 10:00 Mondays to Fridays at ... London Euston". Now I read that as actually alighting at Euston, so it would be acceptable for me to join the 0715 from Manchester Piccadilly (Euston 0928) and alight at Milton Keynes Central (which paradoxically suits my plans anyway). Is my interpretation correct or am I asking for trouble?

Milton Keynes is also a barred station.

The All Line Rail Rover is NOT valid for boarding or alighting train services operated by Avanti West Coast, CrossCountry, East Midlands Railway, or LNER before 10:00 Mondays to Fridays at the following stations:

• Birmingham New Street
• Bedford
• London Euston
• London Kings Cross
• London St Pancras International
• Luton
• Luton Airport Parkway
• Milton Keynes Central
• Stevenage
• Watford Junction

there are however no restrictions on weekends or bank holidays.

 

[Watershed]

In principle you would be right; the restrictions are only for boarding or alighting at the named stations. But Milton Keynes is also in the list, so you can't take the 07:15 as far as Milton Keynes. You'd have to get off at Stoke or buy another ticket from Stoke. Frustratingly, that service stops at Rugby, but only to pick up, so you couldn't split there (indeed, I suspect that was done quite deliberately to undermine splitting - which is really underhanded).

The full restriction reads:

Outward Travel	Return Travel
Not valid for boarding or alighting train services operated by CrossCountry, East Midlands Railway, LNER, or Avanti West Coast after 04:29 and before 10:00 at the following stations: Birmingham New Street Bedford London Euston London Kings Cross London St Pancras International Luton Luton Airport Parkway Milton Keynes Central Stevenage Watford Junction	Not valid for boarding or alighting train services operated by CrossCountry, East Midlands Railway, LNER, or Avanti West Coast after 04:29 and before 10:00 at the following stations: Birmingham New Street Bedford London Euston London Kings Cross London St Pancras International Luton Luton Airport Parkway Milton Keynes Central Stevenage Watford Junction

Easements
On Sleeper services, the All Line Rail Rover must be valid on the date of arrival at your destination but need not be valid on the date of departure of a Sleeper service. The date of arrival is the first date of validity of the All Line Rail Rover.

 

[py_megapixel]

You may wish to go back and read that condition in more detail - it's actually a list of stations you aren't allowed to alight at before 10:00, and Milton Keynes Central is on it too unfortunately.

Edit: others have posted above to the same effect

 

[AlterEgo]

In principle you would be right; the restrictions are only for boarding or alighting at the named stations. But Milton Keynes is also in the list, so you can't take the 07:15 as far as Milton Keynes. You'd have to get off at Stoke or buy another ticket from Stoke. Frustratingly, that service stops at Rugby - but only to pick up, so you couldn't split there (indeed, I suspect that was done quite deliberately to undermine splitting - which is really underhanded).

The full restriction reads:

There is an argument that an ALR with a Wolverton-MKC single would be sufficient to allow alighting at Milton Keynes, but I consider this a "grey art" and would not give advice to try this unless one was happy to risk a confrontation.

 

[EveningStar]

Doh! Can see Milton Keynes on the list. Hang my head in shame at not checking carefully. Thank you for pointing out the situation and looks like I am changing my plans.

 

[AlterEgo]

Doh! Can see Milton Keynes on the list. Hang my head in shame at not checking carefully. Thank you for pointing out the situation and looks like I am changing my plans.

But to reiterate, in case you plan again, you are reading the literal interpretation correctly. It’s only *actually alighting* at those stations that’s banned.

 

[Haywain]

It’s only *actually alighting* at those stations that’s banned

And *actually boarding*. There is no restriction on using a CrossCountry train to travel from Derby to Cheltenham through Birmingham New Street. And the only London terminus where leaving is truly prevented is St Pancras, as all the others have operators who can get you beyond the restricted stations.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

there are however no restrictions on weekends or bank holidays.

I should ask for clarification - as Avanti no longer has peak restrictions on Fridays, do the ALR restrictions with regard to Avanti still count on Fridays?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I should ask for clarification - as Avanti no longer has peak restrictions on Fridays, do the ALR restrictions with regard to Avanti still count on Fridays?

Yes. The restriction is defined by the ticket, not the TOC.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

And the only London terminus where leaving is truly prevented is St Pancras, as all the others have operators who can get you beyond the restricted stations.

Are you quite sure about this? I'm struggling to think of trains which run through King's Cross or Euston. Please enlighten me!

 

[transportphoto]

Are you quite sure about this? I'm struggling to think of trains which run through King's Cross or Euston. Please enlighten me!

It’s an operator specific restriction. Thameslink/Great Northern services aren’t restricted, for example.

 

[APT618S]

You could of course use West Midlands Trains e.g via Crewe as their are no time restrictions with this train operator.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

It’s an operator specific restriction. Thameslink/Great Northern services aren’t restricted, for example.

<light dawns>

Thanks.

 

[Haywain]

It’s an operator specific restriction. Thameslink/Great Northern services aren’t restricted, for example.

And Grand Central, Hull Trains and Lumo from King's Cross, whereas from St Pancras you can only use Thameslink and still not get beyond Bedford.

 

[robbeech]

It may be that the timetable has changed significantly enough to get around it since i last looked but i seem to think you couldn't get a GTR based train from St Pancras that got you to Luton or Bedford for you to catch an EMR service north after the restriction ends that actually saves you any time. Infact i think less of the EMR services call at Luton / Bedford now so its likely a non starter. King's Cross and Euston as others have said is ok with other GTR / Lumo / Hull Trains / Grand Central and West Midlands Trains.

 

[Class800]

It’s an operator specific restriction. Thameslink/Great Northern services aren’t restricted, for example.

then what about Thameslink out of St Pancras?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

then what about Thameslink out of St Pancras?

When I last did an ALR ( August 2020 ) I used Thameslink from London Bridge to Peterborough without any issues as a means of getting ahead out of London without having to wait.

That also meant I could avoid forking out for the Underground as well.

 

[Class800]

When I last did an ALR ( August 2020 ) I used Thameslink from London Bridge to Peterborough without any issues as a means of getting ahead out of London without having to wait.

That also meant I could avoid forking out for the Underground as well.

Yes it's what I'd do.

 

[Haywain]

then what about Thameslink out of St Pancras?

Yes, no problem with that. To Peterborough or Bedford, but with no onwards connection from the latter before 10.00.

 

[Class800]

Yes, no problem with that. To Peterborough or Bedford, but with no onwards connection from the latter before 10.00.

OK but could have a nice look round Peterborough and see the cathedral - if you like that sort of thing.

 

[Haywain]

OK but could have a nice look round Peterborough and see the cathedral - if you like that sort of thing.

As soon as you arrive at Peterborough you can board an LNER train, even before 10.00, because there is no restriction from Peterborough.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

In principle you would be right; the restrictions are only for boarding or alighting at the named stations. But Milton Keynes is also in the list, so you can't take the 07:15 as far as Milton Keynes. You'd have to get off at Stoke or buy another ticket from Stoke. Frustratingly, that service stops at Rugby, but only to pick up, so you couldn't split there (indeed, I suspect that was done quite deliberately to undermine splitting - which is really underhanded).

The full restriction reads:

Or the OP could change at Stoke on Trent then get LNWR to London Euston. Slower I know, but at least the restriction only applies to Avanti West Coast or CrossCountry on the WCML

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Mar 2023 ==

And *actually boarding*. There is no restriction on using a CrossCountry train to travel from Derby to Cheltenham through Birmingham New Street. And the only London terminus where leaving is truly prevented is St Pancras, as all the others have operators who can get you beyond the restricted stations.

That's not true, ALR can be used on Thameslink which also serves St Pancras. It's only EMR where it can't be used before 10:00 on Monday to Fridays.

 

[Haywain]

That's not true, ALR can be used on Thameslink which also serves St Pancras. It's only EMR where it can't be used before 10:00 on Monday to Fridays.

Great. You can go to Bedford, but not to Leicester, Nottingham, Derby and Sheffield. Restrictions at Euston don't prevent longer journeys with LNR and those at Kings Cross don't prevent using the open access operators.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Great. You can go to Bedford, but not to Leicester, Nottingham, Derby and Sheffield. Restrictions at Euston don't prevent longer journeys with LNR and those at Kings Cross don't prevent using the open access operators.

Luckily there are alternatives

For Leicester: LNWR to Nuneaton, then CrossCountry to Leicester

For Nottingham & Derby: Thameslink to Peterborough, LNER to Newark North Gate, EMR to Nottingham & Derby

For Sheffield: Thameslink to Peterborough, LNER to Leeds or Wakefield Westgate, Northern to Sheffield

 

[Haywain]

Luckily there are alternatives

For Leicester: LNWR to Nuneaton, then CrossCountry to Leicester

For Nottingham & Derby: Thameslink to Peterborough, LNER to Newark North Gate, EMR to Nottingham & Derby

For Sheffield: Thameslink to Peterborough, LNER to Leeds or Wakefield Westgate, Northern to Sheffield

All terribly convenient, aren't they?!!

 

[SouthEastBuses]

All terribly convenient, aren't they?!!

Yeah, ideally you wouldn't do these but at least there is another way to get to these places. Could be worse and no way at all

 

[Haywain]

Yeah, ideally you wouldn't do these but at least there is another way to get to these places. Could be worse and no way at all

Well, I'm glad that you think the restrictions are not too onerous.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Well, I'm glad that you think the restrictions are not too onerous.

Yeah, I still wish they wouldn't exist though. As I said in an another thread, it describes how bloody expensive train fares are in the UK if you don't own a Railcard, how TOCs like to scam people by forcing people to pay even more than they should, and how the UK fare system is absolutely confusing and broken.

What do I mean by that?

You spent so much money on buying a high value ticket to give you the freedom of travelling wherever you want for a week or two and yet you still have to pay more if you want to leave early in the morning for a day trip from London using a long distance operator. Thankfully there are alternatives which I highlighted above but unless you're a rail enthusiast like me and interested in travelling in different train lines, why would you need your journey to take much longer for no reason whatsoever?

It's no wonder why hardly anyone ever buys this product, as useful as it could be. Even I personally wouldn't - instead I would buy cheap long distance advance singles and then use regional rail rovers. Devon has a regional rover at a very good price, iirc only £14. Rail rovers tend to be no use of me though as I normally ride buses when I explore a particular region

Don't get me wrong, I love country rail rovers, but would only ever buy them if the price was reasonable, and not a scam rip off of £571 (£433 for me as a result of the 16-25 Railcard) that doesn't even let you travel on some long distance trains out of London during the morning peak on a Weekday. Even a price of say £100 to £200 would be fine, because despite being lots of money, at least you're paying for complete flexibility to explore the whole of the UK for a week or too without restrictions, and more importantly, at a far more reasonable price. Plus it's a big saving compared to £571 for a week or £833 for two weeks and still having to pay more to use some long distance trains out of London in the morning peak

But oh this is the UK, where the only thing that matters is profit. Everything else is unimportant in the eyes of the TOCs

Apologies for the long rant, and for some off topics bits, but it just had to be done.

 

[Silver Cobra]

Yeah, I still wish they wouldn't exist though. As I said in an another thread, it describes how bloody expensive train fares are in the UK if you don't own a Railcard, how TOCs like to scam people by forcing people to pay even more than they should, and how the UK fare system is absolutely confusing and broken.

What do I mean by that?

You spent so much money on buying a high value ticket to give you the freedom of travelling wherever you want for a week or two and yet you still have to pay more if you want to leave early in the morning for a day trip from London using a long distance operator. Thankfully there are alternatives which I highlighted above but unless you're a rail enthusiast like me and interested in travelling in different train lines, why would you need your journey to take much longer for no reason whatsoever?

It's no wonder why hardly anyone ever buys this product, as useful as it could be. Even I personally wouldn't - instead I would buy cheap long distance advance singles and then use regional rail rovers. Devon has a regional rover at a very good price, iirc only £14. Rail rovers tend to be no use of me though as I normally ride buses when I explore a particular region

Don't get me wrong, I love country rail rovers, but would only ever buy them if the price was reasonable, and not a scam rip off of £571 (£433 for me as a result of the 16-25 Railcard) that doesn't even let you travel on some long distance trains out of London during the morning peak on a Weekday. Even a price of say £100 to £200 would be fine, because despite being lots of money, at least you're paying for complete flexibility to explore the whole of the UK for a week or too without restrictions, and more importantly, at a far more reasonable price. Plus it's a big saving compared to £571 for a week or £833 for two weeks and still having to pay more to use some long distance trains out of London in the morning peak

But oh this is the UK, where the only thing that matters is profit. Everything else is unimportant in the eyes of the TOCs

Apologies for the long rant, and for some off topics bits, but it just had to be done.

The irony is that the ALR didn't used to have these restrictions placed on them. I can't remember the exact date, but it was some time in the mid-to-late 2000s that Money Saving Expert transport minister Lord Adonis made reference to the fact that the ALR undercut quite a few different long distance anytime returns and weekly season tickets (mainly those on the likes of then Virgin Trains, Cross Country and GNER/NXEC), which increased the uptake of the ALR quite significantly with long-distance commuters. Of course, these operators were very unhappy with losing out on revenue from the more expensive returns/weekly seasons, so pushed for restrictions to be added to the ALR to curb their usage in this way. In essence it's a very similar situation to the restrictions Virgin/Avanti added to off-peak tickets from Lancaster to London to avoid the undercutting of Preston to London anytime tickets that was happening several years ago.