All cross country services suspended 23/08/26

[Sheddyone]

It's only a couple of days since Comrade Putin said that the UK would pay for continuing to supply weapons and drones to Ukraine. IOf Mr Putin wanted us to suffer, he would have left XR running

It's only a couple of days since Comrade Putin said that the UK would pay for continuing to supply weapons and drones to Ukraine.

If Putin wanted to make us suffer he would have left XC running normally

 

[biglads]

The standard evacuation plans in my experience were "Go to the nearest park/open space" if you were in a city or "Stand in the corner of the Car Park" if you weren't. Not ideal.

 

[D6130]

If Putin wanted to make us suffer he would have left XC running normally

 

[DelW]

Hammersmith & City Line from Kings Cross St Pancras to Paddington has lifts.

The disadvantage would be that a passenger diverting from XC wouldn't have the tube journey included (it was in the context of a hypothetical journey from Scotland to Cornwall). They could of course use a bank card (paying extra), but passengers unfamiliar with London might not be aware of that.

Even if step free through London, that is still a huge pain compared to a direct train thiugh (and of course wouldn't be steps free onto and off of the mainline services either side).

It was in the context of alternatives to XC, which obviously had no direct trains on Sunday.

 

[Vexed]

The disadvantage would be that a passenger diverting from XC wouldn't have the tube journey included (it was in the context of a hypothetical journey from Scotland to Cornwall). They could of course use a bank card (paying extra), but passengers unfamiliar with London might not be aware of that.

I don't have a quote, but I remember the disruption information said ticket acceptance was in place for London Underground.

 

[DelW]

I don't have a quote, but I remember the disruption information said ticket acceptance was in place for London Underground.

Oh, I hadn't seen that. Just a case of hoping the LU gateline staff are aware of it too then .

 

[Haywain]

Oh, I hadn't seen that. Just a case of hoping the LU gateline staff are aware of it too then .

It was Sunday, they don't need to be aware of it now.

 

[Recessio]

Not a good plan. I was seconded for a while to a central goverment office when bomb scares were quite frequent. The evacuation plan (which was never varied) was to congregate in a public space 200m away. I only went once, after that I reckoned the ppl who started the bomb scare were only too capable of putting the bomb at the evacuation point.

The idea is we were all meant to disperse and go to different locations >100 m away, rather than hang around the office building in the same location, so that we weren't all in the same evacuation point. Especially as this office building was next to a major London termini too. Anyway sorry this is probably veering off-topic now...

Out of interest, would there be any investigation into this by any railway body? (ORR, DfT, NR)? Or is this just one of those things where if XC want to keep quiet about it and not reveal any information , they can do so?

 

[mbh]

Could this incident had a far more impact if it had taken place in the operating day. With stranded trains with out crews or broken await control authority to proceed. With wide coverage of cross country could they have brought whole network to a halt ?

 

[DelW]

It was Sunday, they don't need to be aware of it now.

I know that. The phrase was from the point of view of someone making the hypothetical journey, either last Sunday or potentially on another occasion. But it was only a passing comment anyway.

 

[IanXC]

XC not doing themselves any favours. 1V52 -0703 Edinburgh to Penzance is presently 119 late at Marsh Barton.
The return journey 1M92 from Penzance to Birmingham is cancelled between Penzance and Par. Reason Given: Unknown cause.

Nothing to do with XC. Unless you think they rang the relevant Network Rail controller and said, oh yes this train will start at Par but we don't know why?

Yesterday's collapse seems to have put a bomb under them (maybe an unfortunate simile) but their performance today has been astonishingly good - up to mid-day. I saw about half a dozen cancellations/terminating or starting short, and about the same again p.m. (Using RTT for BHM selecting XC only.)
Perhaps "they" realise they could be in the Last Chance saloon - and have realised they might even be made to suffer in their pockets.

Do you really think that XC employees are doing anything different based on what happened mere hours ago. its highly unlikely that any operational, rather than IT system delivery lessons have been identified yet alone learned by this point. As has been pointed out by subsequent posters the variation you have identified is entirely in line with the variation to be expected.

But wouldn’t a simple solution, given presumably a lot of these systems are cloud based or have cloud backup, for ALL of the TOCs, or different bits of GBR in the future, be to effectively have empty computers / desk space at another location, like a ROC or a reciprocal arrangement with another neighbouring TOC, to allow staff to connect to some systems from another secure, railway location ?

If you are correct to think that any of the TOCs operating under DfT direction do not have a contingency location lined up for controllers then I would be astounded. What we have here (did anyone have a previous example?) is multiple slices of Swiss cheese aligning. I guess the question is, if your Business Continuity Plan accounts for 3 problems aligning, do you pay the money to resolve the situation where 4 risks align???

 

[AndrewE]

What we have here (did anyone have a previous example?) is multiple slices of Swiss cheese aligning. I guess the question is, if your Business Continuity Plan accounts for 3 problems aligning, do you pay the money to resolve the situation where 4 risks align???

it depends on how you see railways (which to my mind are an essential part of UK infrastructure for all people travelling long distances other than by car - pace road coaches - in a low-carbon way) and whether you think the state should be ensuring that it is reliable as a way to wean people out of cars?
I do, and any/every collapse of the railway jeopardises that objective.

 

[Snow1964]

Could this incident had a far more impact if it had taken place in the operating day. With stranded trains with out crews or broken await control authority to proceed. With wide coverage of cross country could they have brought whole network to a halt ?

I guess when the power outage happened on a Saturday evening, most crews probably wanted to continue the service as they were on homeward leg of journeys, and had a home and bed to get to.

If it happened early in the day, and much higher risk of being stranded away from home, then you make a good point, would there be more crews less likely to want to move trains and potentially get stranded miles from home, and no control arranging alternative transport.

 

[IanXC]

it depends on how you see railways (which to my mind are an essential part of UK infrastructure for all people travelling long distances other than by car - pace road coaches - in a low-carbon way) and whether you think the state should be ensuring that it is reliable as a way to wean people out of cars?
I do, and any/every collapse of the railway jeopardises that objective.

3 versus 4 was an example, without seeing XC's contingency plans we might be talking about 118 versus 119. In any case the decision about whether to spend that money will have ultimately been driven by a decision by cost.

 

[Requeststop]

Yes, it should be step-free but it's really not at all hassle free with luggage, multiple lifts** with waiting time, quite long walks down various tunnels involved, serious crowds at time, it's really a pretty nasty experience with heavy luggage, compared to getting on a train at Edinburgh, stowing your luggage, sitting down and that's it. If XC worked properly and had enough capacity it would be a far, far superior experience than going via London.

**The chances of at least one of the sets of lifts being out of order are pretty high when so many are involved - is it four or is it more?

It would be so much better an option if GWR actually ran from Bristol TM to Birmingham New Street instead as well as to Worcester and Hereford and be given the chance to avoid London. Getting from the Underground to the platforms at St Pancras and Kings Cross is a nightmare. You walk miles or so it seems.

It's bad enough there days with only two services by XC per day from Penzance that go directly through to Birmingham at least.
GWR cut the Penzance-Cardiff Services and now to get to Bristol or further north you must change at Exeter St David's.

Some Days you are lucky if the XC services actually make it to Penzance the journeys from Edinburgh Leeds or Birmingham sometimes don't make it past Bristol, Exeter or Plymouth, such is the unreliability of XC. Try changing trains at Plymouth with heavy luggage too.

 

[cats_five]

Thameslink to Farringdon then Elizabeth Line to Paddington should be step-free if the relevant lifts are all working.

It occurred to me on Sunday that that might be the best option for XC passengers diverting via London, whose tickets wouldn't have had validity for transfers via the Tube.

*if*. And *if* one knows them, and is it more walking? That's not exactly fantastic pulling a large suitcase.

I very much hope this is hypothetical and my journey will be without changes to Penzance and one change at Plymouth on the way back.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Wednesday at 07:26 ==

<snip>

Try changing trains at Plymouth with heavy luggage too.

I did, it was fine, there are obvious lifts.

 

[blue87]

Cross Country control being out was a major problem. I seem to remember hearing when Virgin Trains was around there was a backup control room at the back of platform 1 at Birmingham International they could use, does that still exist?

 

[Goldfish62]

Cross Country control being out was a major problem. I seem to remember hearing when Virgin Trains was around there was a backup control room at the back of platform 1 at Birmingham International they could use, does that still exist?

Yes, Virgin did, and had regular exercises utilising it. This was highlighted by Chris Gibb on Green Signals yesterday, also pointing out that having a contingency control centre should be part of the standard business continuity plan for any relevant business, not just the railways.

 

[py_megapixel]

It would be so much better an option if GWR actually ran from Bristol TM to Birmingham New Street

At the very least it would have been useful on Sunday if the hourly GW service terminating at Cheltenham could have been extended to Bromsgrove.

I have no idea if it's even possible to turn back trains from the south at Bromsgrove though, and it would have required an extra unit and crew to be arranged at quite short notice.

When XC is in normal service I'm not sure there's any need for a GW Bristol-Birmingham service though, I think the current 2tph on that route is reasonable (albeit longer trains really needed!)

 

[Haywain]

and it would have required an extra unit and crew to be arranged at quite short notice.

I would be very surprised if any GW drivers or guards have route knowledge to Bromsgrove.

 

[nlogax]

Yes, Virgin did, and had regular exercises utilising it. This was highlighted by Chris Gibb on Green Signals yesterday, also pointing out that having a contingency control centre should be part of the standard business continuity plan for any relevant business, not just the railways.

That interview was a good insight into how things should be operated. Curious to know if XC just did away with the facility, and what their plan B was in the event of a major issue in with their control facility. Whatever it was it didn't work.

Frustrating that large parts of the country depend on their pretty dreadful service.

 

[Harpo]

At the very least it would have been useful on Sunday if the hourly GW service terminating at Cheltenham could have been extended to Bromsgrove.

Worcester would have been doable but any extension beyond Cheltenham creates a problem resourcing with the return train from Cheltenham.

 

[AndrewE]

I would be very surprised if any GW drivers or guards have route knowledge to Bromsgrove.

If there had been any spare GW crews then surely unemployed XC crews could have conducted them? Hand-written diagrams for them and the XC people would have sufficed...

 

[Haywain]

Hand-written diagrams for them and the XC people would have sufficed...

Organised by XC control? You know, the people who were locked out of everything.

 

[AndrewE]

Organised by XC control? You know, the people who were locked out of everything.

Maybe a couple of the best diagrammers in a nearby Starbucks with pencils and paper - and a laptop for email distribution and mobile phones for liaison with depots...
(remembering how we used to draw out the services on paper every week for the STN alterations and extra trains and allocate crews to them in about 1982.)

 

[The Planner]

Why would they be diagramming on the day?

 

[Haywain]

Maybe a couple of the best diagrammers in a nearby Starbucks with pencils and paper - and a laptop for email distribution and mobile phones for liaison with depots...

Who is going to issue them with the laptops and mobile phones on a Saturday night or Sunday morning, and ensure they've got all the relevant software loaded?

 

[NeakPed]

Who is going to issue them with the laptops and mobile phones on a Saturday night or Sunday morning, and ensure they've got all the relevant software loaded?

And without access to the server, they are not going to be in a position to identify any ‘spare’ crews.
From years of Control experience, traincrew on being told everything is cancelled, are very unlikely to proactively volunteer to do any work.

 

[AndrewE]

Why would they be diagramming on the day?

to put together a skeleton hourly service, say between Bristol and York fitting in with what resources GWR and LNER could lend? Don't you think it's appalling that in modern Britain they just abandoned train services on that axis? I suppose that it being a Sunday might have made it more difficult to get something running, but all the crew and rolling stock was ready to go, and GWR and LNER might have had resources available.

Who is going to issue them with the laptops and mobile phones on a Saturday night or Sunday morning, and ensure they've got all the relevant software loaded?

Don't most people have company laptops and phones nowadays? and maybe you didn't see my comment

(remembering how we used to draw out the services on paper every week for the STN alterations and extra trains and allocate crews to them in about 1982.)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Yesterday at 13:36 ==

And without access to the server, they are not going to be in a position to identify any ‘spare’ crews.

if you decide you are not going to run any trains, then by definition all the crew are spare!

From years of Control experience, traincrew on being told everything is cancelled, are very unlikely to proactively volunteer to do any work.

What a tragedy. The railway I worked in had people who wanted it to succeed, and I bet a skeleton service could still have been manned.

 

[NeakPed]

to put together a skeleton hourly service, say between Bristol and York fitting in with what resources GWR and LNER could lend? Don't you think it's appalling that in modern Britain they just abandoned train services on that axis? I suppose that it being a Sunday might have made it more difficult to get something running, but all the crew and rolling stock was ready to go, and GWR and LNER might have had resources available.

Don't most people have company laptops and phones nowadays? and maybe you didn't see my comment


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Yesterday at 13:36 ==


if you decide you are not going to run any trains, then by definition all the crew are spare!

What a tragedy. The railway I worked in had people who wanted it to succeed, and I bet a skeleton service could still have been manned.

But without access to computers, they will not know who is spare. The Traincrew controllers are centralised - they will not have visibility either.

The railway years ago was different. Local staff had control of their area. There was also less reliance on computers, and more local knowledge / working relationships.
Nowadays there is an inquiry whenever anyone anyone farts. Hence staff are reluctant to offer to help in case they leave a nasty smell in error.