Alexander-Dennis Enviro 400 Vs Wright Gemini 2

[NorwichRailFan]

I'm just trying to get an idea of the peoples opinions on these buses, personally I prefer the Enviro 400's. Before people start saying like to be more specific, I mean if you had a straight up choice of going on a journey on an Enviro 400 or a Wright Gemini 2, both journeys took the same amount of time, went to the same stop, on the same route, Same conditions, which would you pick?

 

[SouthEastBuses]

I'm not sure, they're both great looking buses and both can have nice comfy seats

 

[GusB]

I'm just trying to get an idea of the peoples opinions on these buses, personally I prefer the Enviro 400's. Before people start saying like to be more specific, I mean if you had a straight up choice of going on a journey on an Enviro 400 or a Wright Gemini 2, both journeys took the same amount of time, went to the same stop, on the same route, Same conditions, which would you pick?

As ever, it's not quite as simple as a straight choice between the two, considering that both bodies have been built on different platforms (ADL, DAF/VDL, Scania, Volvo etc.). Do you mean an original Enviro 400 body, the E400 MMC version, or the E400City?

Would you like a tin opener?

 

[Busman84]

Speaking as somebody who has driven these buses the Wright Gemini 2 is the better bus (more expensive too).

Take the Enviro 400. It’s a decent enough bus to drive however the suspension is the same as the Trident rather stiff so not great on UK roads and interior the E400 does have rattles. Blindspots are an issue too especially more in the lowheight version. Normal height model has a higher ceiling in cab so is slightly better. ZF examples can suffer from throttle delay too. Don’t think Voiths suffer from this.

With both Gemini/Gemini 2 this bus looks better (more so Gemini 2). Both being on Volvo means heavy solid Chassis. Also Volvo dash, steering and switch binnacle better than the E400. Suspension is good on these buses and has a passenger very smooth buses perhaps the best buses around at the moment. These buses didn’t rattle either (especially earlier Gemini 1) and for build quality better than the Enviro 400. Even a Gemini 10-15 years old can go over poor road surfaces and you hardly hear a rattle yet can’t say the same for classic Enviro 400 or newer E400MMCs.

 

[WY Bus Spotter]

B9TL Gemini 2 over any Enviro variant ever produced, all day ever day. Enviros are God-awful from personal experience. The only ones I thought were ok were the Scania MMCs at Preston.

 

[jonesy3001]

Volvos go up hills quicker then the enviro 400s, they replaced the MMCs on the X84 between Ilkley and leeds with streetdecks.

 

[dodecahedron67]

Volvos go up hills quicker then the enviro 400s, they replaced the MMCs on the X84 between Ilkley and leeds with streetdecks.

Being pedantic, those streetdecks don’t have a thing volvo about them - they’re wrightbus integrals

 

[WY Bus Spotter]

Volvos go up hills quicker then the enviro 400s, they replaced the MMCs on the X84 between Ilkley and leeds with streetdecks.

First Hunslet Park have got less Volvo buses now than ever. Streetdecks are integrals.

 

[jonesy3001]

First Hunslet Park have got less Volvo buses now than ever. Streetdecks are integrals.

I always thought they were Volvos.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Volvos go up hills quicker then the enviro 400s, they replaced the MMCs on the X84 between Ilkley and leeds with streetdecks.

Unfortunately Streetdecks are absolute crap buses unlike Volvos, and as others have pointed, there's nothing Volvo about them at all.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Dec 2022 ==

I always thought they were Volvos.

It's easy to get confused - the body looks absolutely exactly the same! The sound is what will reveal whether it's a Streetdeck or a Volvo - if it sounds like your typical Voith citybus, then it's a Streetdeck (only available in Voith) - if it sounds like your typical ZF citybus then it's a B5TL Gemini 3 (only available in ZF).

 

[Mikey C]

From a passenger pov, the Gemini 1 and 2 are great buses, much nicer than original E400s or the predecessor ALX400 and President.

The Gemini 3 (and Streetdeck) with their tiny windows were a major step backwards though, whereas the newer E400MMC and E400City are a step forwards over the earlier E400.

Indeed on the B5TL, I much prefer the MCV body to the Gemini 3.

 

[heathrowrail]

Having been on both with First West of England Route 19, both 12 plates with same Civic3 seats, I can say the E400s are way nicer. Gemini 2s are very noisy for my liking; reminds me of a bus from the 80s. Enviros might be a bit rattly but they feel more modern and give a better passenger experience.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

The best bus is always going to be the Volvo chassis bus regardless of its bodywork.

I'd rather drive a B7, B9, B5 or B8 any day over a cummins-powered integral from ADL.

 

[JD2168]

B9TL for me over Enviro 400, particularly the Stagecoach versions which are almost all low height which is not good when you are a tall person & have to duck upstairs & at the door. The Volvo chassis is also better than the chassis on Enviro 400’s as it rides bumps & speed humps much better.

The Streetdeck for me was a backward step with a poor ride & the small windows upstairs which can make it feel dark & claustrophobic at times.

 

[py_megapixel]

If I'm choosing between an original E400 body and a Wright-bodied Volvo then I'd definitely say the Wright/Volvo, because I prefer to travel on a bus which can handle everyday imperfections in the road surface without loud rattling and violent bumps. Engine noise doesn't bother me so much on a decker as you can minimise it by sitting upstairs near the front.

If choosing between Wright and ADL's modern offerings, the roles have been reversed. E400MMC beats StreetDeck - for much the same reason!

 

[fgwrich]

If I'm choosing between an original E400 body and a Wright-bodied Volvo then I'd definitely say the Wright/Volvo, because I prefer to travel on a bus which can handle everyday imperfections in the road surface without loud rattling and violent bumps. Engine noise doesn't bother me so much on a decker as you can minimise it by sitting upstairs near the front.

If choosing between Wright and ADL's modern offerings, the roles have been reversed. E400MMC beats StreetDeck - for much the same reason!

Exactly this. I still feel the Gemini 1 is one of the smartest designed double deckers this side of the millennium. However, like you, I too quite like the MMC design and would happily travel on any of those instead of the infernal Streetdeck. Likewise if we were talking single decks - give me a Eclipse any day of the week over the original Enviro (though the E300s were quality vehicles), but the opposite if we're talking E-MMC vs Streetlite.

 

[bunty0657]

There are still some 18-year-old B7TL/Geminis in service round here and even though they are cosmetically poor, they ride very well and there is not a squeak or rattle in them.

The howling, always-on fan that afflicts many (a result of poor maintenance by the operator) is another matter, however.

 

[Busman84]

Think it’s a failed Coolant Temp sensor causing the fan issue. Ideally the fan would only be noticeable at full speed if the engine was warmer than normal. However with failed sensor the fan is on constantly.

 

[Towers]

One local operator here has a fleet of very smart E400 MMCs, very nicely trimmed with coach-spec seating. Unfortunately, ADL indulged in a ridiculous bit of design whereby the front offside upper deck seats are awful bits of essentially covered flat board, mounted on top of what is presumably some equipment housing. So you have the daft situation of one seat of uber-plush seats alongside a set that are the complete opposite! And these are, arguably, the best seats in the house!

Not the biggest drama in the world, but it always strikes me as a piece of standout poor design!

 

[M803UYA]

Exactly this. I still feel the Gemini 1 is one of the smartest designed double deckers this side of the millennium. However, like you, I too quite like the MMC design and would happily travel on any of those instead of the infernal Streetdeck. Likewise if we were talking single decks - give me a Eclipse any day of the week over the original Enviro (though the E300s were quality vehicles), but the opposite if we're talking E-MMC vs Streetlite.

I'm the same as you - big fan of the original Wright Gemini and the later Gemini 2 which for me was the peak of production. Not keen at all on original Enviro 400s but liked the MMC from day one. ADL brought the prototype down to where I was working in 2014 and were most keen for us to look over it - even taking us out for a little drive. Until 2016 we only bought small batches from them - ones/twos. Wright managed to set fire to our loyalty around 2015 so the last new vehicles ever ordered were 6 MMCs delivered in 2017.

 

[Tetchytyke]

In terms of chassis/engine there are too many variables: the original E400 was a Cummins-engined integral but there was a Scania engine option which was more powerful. Then we got the E400MMC and the E400MMC City.

And for the Eclipse Gemini (and the 2, and the 3) we're taking Volvo, but the Pulsar Gemini was basically the same body but on a VDL chassis and the Streetdeck is an integral which the body of the Eclipse Gemini 3 was changed to match. And then there's a low-height version too.

So do we mean the E400, the E400MMC, or the E400MMC City?

And do we mean the Eclipse Gemini 1, 2, or 3, do we mean the Pulsar Gemini 1 or 2, do we mean the Streetdeck, and do we consider the low-height version separately? I always clout my head on the ceiling of Arriva's low height Pulsar Gemini 2s, which always annoys me.

Too many questions.

For me, the Eclipse Gemini 1 was the best bit of work Wright did, they're bomb-proof and still going strong. I do like the E400MMC, but still prefer the Eclipse Gemini 1.

 

[scosutsut]

Have to say Gemini 2 was peak Wrightbus quality for me, and being built on a trusty Volvo B9TL means a E400 doesn't even get an honourable mention for me I'm afraid.

 

[Mikey C]

The Gemini 2 looked slightly neater than the Gemini 1, but more importantly was usually on the B9TL rather than the B7TL with its horrible roaring fan noise!

 

[DanNCL]

I’ve went with the Gemini. The classic E400 was alright, but not a patch on a B9TL Gemini.

If it was any of the E400 versions vs Streetdeck I’d have voted for the E400 no questions asked.

 

[Andyh82]

One local operator here has a fleet of very smart E400 MMCs, very nicely trimmed with coach-spec seating. Unfortunately, ADL indulged in a ridiculous bit of design whereby the front offside upper deck seats are awful bits of essentially covered flat board, mounted on top of what is presumably some equipment housing. So you have the daft situation of one seat of uber-plush seats alongside a set that are the complete opposite! And these are, arguably, the best seats in the house!

Not the biggest drama in the world, but it always strikes me as a piece of standout poor design!

It is and it’s the same even on buses with normal bus seats. When they did the MMC revision they shouldn’t have accepted it and ADL bosses should have asked the designers to have another look.

 

[heathrowrail]

It is and it’s the same even on buses with normal bus seats. When they did the MMC revision they shouldn’t have accepted it and ADL bosses should have asked the designers to have another look.

Surely it can't be long before a redesigned MMC is due? ALX400 lasted 10 years, Enviro 400 lasted about 10 years, MMCs are about 8 years old.

 

[cnjb8]

Surely it can't be long before a resigned over the MMC is due? ALX400 lasted 10 years, Enviro 400 lasted about 10 years, MMCs are about 8 years old.

I don't think it'll be redesigned, it would be discontinued as operators start buying electric and hydrogen. ADL use the City bodywork for these buses

 

[Markk1990]

Surely it can't be long before a redesigned MMC is due? ALX400 lasted 10 years, Enviro 400 lasted about 10 years, MMCs are about 8 years old.

There is an updated design is there not?

 

[cactustwirly]

I agree with people picking the Volvos.
I went on a 09 plated Volvo single decker to Heathrow a few months back, this was a lot more comfortable Enviro bus that Reading Buses operate. Those are awful cheap rattly things

 

[Mikey C]

There is an updated design is there not?

Yes the "in house" electric E400EV has new bodywork

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