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My view on this is that a drunk who has alcohol is a happy drunk and unlikely to start trouble. A drunk who run out of alcohol is more likely to cause trouble. A drunk who has alcohol taken away from them or is banned from drinking it is even more likely to be confrontational.
On short journeys (under an hour) it's generally better to let people have alcohol than create problems banning it, despite it being an annoyance to some.
Yes the second was valuable for me, I had led a sheltered life up to the point I left home for uni. I never did get why students were so enthusiastic about alcohol. My parents introduced me to alcohol from a young age so throughout my childhood, it was normal for me to have a glass of wine with a meal when we ate out or occasionally at home. I was never a great fan of beer so never developed the urge to down several pints, usually one was enough. Being aware I had a low tolerance for alcohol also inhibited my enthusiasm for drinking more than one or two glasses of beer/wine at a time.
While off topic, it seems to be the approach that people take in continental Europe. While obviously there still issues with over consumption of alcohol in these countries, you don't see the almost Mad Max scenes in towns and cities that you see in this country pre-COVID on Friday & Saturday night from my trips abroad in the continent. Although this just my perception.
While off topic, it seems to be the approach that people take in continental Europe. While obviously there still issues with over consumption of alcohol in these countries, you don't see the almost Mad Max scenes in towns and cities that you see in this country pre-COVID on Friday & Saturday night from my trips abroad in the continent. Although this just my perception.
I do think that alcohol in this country is a symptom of structural issues with our society, namely that a lot of people aren't particularly happy. We do seem to have a rather miserable population compared so somewhere like, for example, Sweden.
I do think that alcohol in this country is a symptom of structural issues with our society, namely that a lot of people aren't particularly happy. We do seem to have a rather miserable population compared so somewhere like, for example, Sweden.
It is really difficult to buy alcohol in Norway and Sweden, I was in both countries a couple of years ago and wanted to take a couple of small bottle of wine to drink on board when travelling on the trains and apart from buying and drinking a whole bottle in the buffet or dining car, you could not so do.
I wonder if Avanti West Coast will serve booze in first class, which I understand they did before this 2nd lockdown.
It is really difficult to buy alcohol in Norway and Sweden, I was in both countries a couple of years ago and wanted to take a couple of small bottle of wine to drink on board when travelling on the trains and apart from buying and drinking a whole bottle in the buffet or dining car, you could not so do.
I wonder if Avanti West Coast will serve booze in first class, which I understand they did before this 2nd lockdown.
While off topic, it seems to be the approach that people take in continental Europe. While obviously there still issues with over consumption of alcohol in these countries, you don't see the almost Mad Max scenes in towns and cities that you see in this country pre-COVID on Friday & Saturday night from my trips abroad in the continent. Although this just my perception.
Czechia has one of the highest per-capita alcohol consumption rates in the world, and while in Prague I saw plenty of locals who had had so much Pilsner that they lay down under their pub table to sleep it off. I've only seen that happen a couple of times in the UK and it always resulted in said sleepy drinker being woken up and chucked out.
I do think that alcohol in this country is a symptom of structural issues with our society, namely that a lot of people aren't particularly happy. We do seem to have a rather miserable population compared so somewhere like, for example, Sweden.
There is quite a bad work ethic in this country, another manifestation of this is the way some people have embraced concepts like WFH and furlough.
At my place we have the inevitable problem people, yet if they've ever up on a serious disciplinary charge where they may lose their job, strangely enough they're begging to keep it.
There is quite a bad work ethic in this country, another manifestation of this is the way some people have embraced concepts like WFH and furlough.
At my place we have the inevitable problem people, yet if they've ever up on a serious disciplinary charge where they may lose their job, strangely enough they're begging to keep it.
In the case of banning alcohol on trains, it's because of that activity having a considerably negative effect on their right to have a quiet and safe train journey.
Is it really fair that people fear using some trains because of drunken misbehaviour?
In the case of banning alcohol on trains, it's because of that activity having a considerably negative effect on their right to have a quiet and safe train journey.
Is it really fair that people fear using some trains because of drunken misbehaviour?
Is it fair that the huge majority of people who enjoy a drink on a train are stopped from doing so because of an over-reaction to a minority of idiots?
Is it fair that the huge majority of people who enjoy a drink on a train are stopped from doing so because of an over-reaction to a minority of idiots?
In the case of banning alcohol on trains, it's because of that activity having a considerably negative effect on their right to have a quiet and safe train journey.
Is it really fair that people fear using some trains because of drunken misbehaviour?
Having the ban makes enforcement easier, it's easier to enforce on simple fact (you have an open bottle of alcohol) than subjective matters (is your behaviour acceptable or not). This is just like ticketing, where discretion is being reduced in favour of strict liability/PFs.
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The purpose of a pub is the consumption of alcohol. If you don't like the consumption of alcohol and its effects on people (within reason), don't go to one.
The purpose of a train is to transport people, not to provide an 8-wheeled pub. There's mostly no harm in it being the latter, but sometimes there are major issues on specific trains hence bans usually being quite targetted.
Having the ban makes enforcement easier, it's easier to enforce on simple fact (you have an open bottle of alcohol) than subjective matters (is your behaviour acceptable or not). This is just like ticketing, where discretion is being reduced in favour of strict liability/PFs.
Apologies, I was being somewhat facetious and it came across as whiny in retrospect. I can see why a ban would be easier to enforce because it's black and white but I was trying to say that enforcement can be patchy. The staff can't be expected to police passengers all the time and nobody wants aggro.
Is it a problem? I've not been on a train since February and Storm Ciara.
Having the ban makes enforcement easier, it's easier to enforce on simple fact (you have an open bottle of alcohol) than subjective matters (is your behaviour acceptable or not). This is just like ticketing, where discretion is being reduced in favour of strict liability/PFs.
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There is but it's quite subjective.
The purpose of a pub is the consumption of alcohol. If you don't like the consumption of alcohol and its effects on people (within reason), don't go to one.
The purpose of a train is to transport people, not to provide an 8-wheeled pub. There's mostly no harm in it being the latter, but sometimes there are major issues on specific trains hence bans usually being quite targetted.
You are making this up as you go along Bletchleyite.
Individuals need to take responsibility for their own behaviour and be held to account when it falls on the wrong side of the law. Alcohol is not the problem, it is people with anti-social attitudes and the ineffectiveness of law enforcement in dealing with these individuals.
The purpose of a restaurant is to feed people so they should ban alcohol?
Mostly not, which is why alcohol bans tend to be quite targetted in which trains they apply to and which they are enforced on (Merseyrail and TfL excepted, but do you *really* need to drink alcohol on a short local journey with no toilets?)
WMT for instance officially "call time after 9" on all their trains but you won't see any enforcement out of Euston most nights (you might on a Saturday) because that isn't where the problems are.
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You are making this up as you go along Bletchleyite.
Individuals need to take responsibility for their own behaviour and be held to account when it falls on the wrong side of the law. Alcohol is not the problem, it is people with anti-social attitudes and the ineffectiveness of law enforcement in dealing with these individuals.
Sometimes it's either not cost-effective or practical to enforce against individuals. To use another example, I would imagine that a professional motor racing driver can quite safely drive at say 50mph past a school in a well-maintained modern vehicle, or say 120mph on a motorway, because their reactions are pin-sharp and their concentration excellent. However, most people can't, even if they think they can, so driving past schools at 50mph is generally illegal, 30 or 20mph being more common limits.
The ideal would be to have a couple of BTP on every "vomit comet" or similar problem train to properly monitor the situation and prosecute for D&D as necessary - but who's paying?
Just as, going back to talking about PFs etc, the ideal would be that there were enough properly trained revenue guards or travelling ticket inspectors on every train to check everyone's ticket and sell them one if necessary, and trains would never be so overcrowded as to make that difficult or impossible (which is how things were in the North in the 1990s, to be fair, but that was on a background of very low usage in most places, and basically everything being a 2-car DMU and most trains loaded well below 50%). But that mostly doesn't work, so "buy before you board" policies are imposed instead, which are a nuisance if you're running late because your alarm didn't go off, your kids were spewing everywhere and you got a flat tyre on the way to the station, but it's easier to apply the same rule to everyone.
Restaurants are typically a bit of a crossover, particularly when you come to things like late-night curry houses, but in practice I'd expect plenty of behaviour that would be accepted in a pub would at least get you thrown out (or refused further service) in a restaurant.
I do think that alcohol in this country is a symptom of structural issues with our society, namely that a lot of people aren't particularly happy. We do seem to have a rather miserable population compared so somewhere like, for example, Sweden.
I think we've lost touch in the UK with what really makes a person happy, we seem to be trying to walk in the footsteps of America. Neo-liberal capitalism has us believe it is owning the latest gadgets or wearing specific clothes that someone has dictated are in fashion (fashion is merely a method of stimulating consumption) is the key to life satisfaction, but to buy the latest gear means we have to work long hours to afford it, which means less leisure time for the things that really make us happy, like physical and meaningful connection with our loved ones. It is pursuing our hobbies and interests, doing things that feel meaningful, and spending time with those we care about which really make us happy. Hard to do that if you are working 12 hours a day and have no energy to do anything but sit in front of the telly, only to have the adverts tell you you suck, so you have to go shopping to try and make you feel better, then go out to work to replace the money you just spent, welcome to the treadmill.
There is truth in the saying "You can't buy happiness".
I think we've lost touch in the UK with what really makes a person happy, we seem to be trying to walk in the footsteps of America. Neo-liberal capitalism has us believe it is owning the latest gadgets or wearing specific clothes that someone has dictated are in fashion (fashion is merely a method of stimulating consumption) is the key to life satisfaction, but to buy the latest gear means we have to work long hours to afford it, which means less leisure time for the things that really make us happy, like physical and meaningful connection with our loved ones. It is pursuing our hobbies and interests, doing things that feel meaningful, and spending time with those we care about which really make us happy. Hard to do that if you are working 12 hours a day and have no energy to do anything but sit in front of the telly, only to have the adverts tell you you suck, so you have to go shopping to try and make you feel better, then go out to work to replace the money you just spent, welcome to the treadmill.
There is truth in the saying "You can't buy happiness".
Yes I think there's more than an element of truth to that. It's interesting to reflect that the last 20 years has seen quite an advancement in the availability of technology in all our everyday lives, yet this doesn't seem to translate into better wellbeing. I've always thought population density doesn't help, in normal times a lot of our time is wasted suffering things like traffic congestion.
Yes I think there's more than an element of truth to that. It's interesting to reflect that the last 20 years has seen quite an advancement in the availability of technology in all our everyday lives, yet this doesn't seem to translate into better wellbeing. I've always thought population density doesn't help, in normal times a lot of our time is wasted suffering things like traffic congestion.
No population density doesn't help. Horsham has definitely got busier over the nearly 20 years I have lived here (my village has nearly doubled in size), and trying to get around town even on foot, never mind driving (I don't drive into town anyway), on the weekend feels like an endurance test sometimes, feels like everyone is in everyone elses way. Doesn't help when you have the smart phone dumb users nearly walking into you because their phone has destroyed spatial awareness. Recently we had the joy of the pop-up cycle lanes which succesfully snarled up the inner bypass at busy times, by halving the road capacity at the point where there are two traffic light controlled juctions a couple of hundred meters apart with long red phases and short (<10 second) green phases. Thankfully they've gone now.
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