Alcohol bans

[wensley]

It was probably around 7/8 years ago that action should have been taken to enforce 'unfit to travel'. A few groups being forced to take a taxi to Donny (or sleep on the streets of York) would soon get the message through that going to York and getting rat arsed was not such a good idea after all. Instead the word obviously got round that nothing would happen and that you didn't need a ticket either (I have heard many groups discussing this in recent years).

Now it is usual for maybe 100/150 drunks to board at York and the problem, which could have been nipped in the bud, is only getting worse and will be much more difficult to solve - these people now expect to behave in this manner with impunity and will, no doubt, take umbrage if challenged.

VTEC have become much more robust in revenue protection terms, so hopefully the number of freeloaders is under control.

I entirely agree with regards turning them away, but BTP and NYP risk passing the problem back and forth. It still doesn't solve it. We also have to be careful, as the railway has a duty of care to paying passengers, not that I agree, but that's what you have to work with.

I arrived I'm York at 1400 this afternoon and the streets are littered with half-drunk folk, it's a horrible atmosphere and it must be damaging tourist traffic and locals going about their everyday business.

The railway will support solving the problem, but the Council need to lead.
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I have to say, I've ended up at York on several Saturday evenings, and I have to admit, I've not witnessed half of the problems that are claimed for the station.

If I turned up there and it was Soddem and Gomorrah, I might understand the issues, but I can honestly say I've not experienced anything untoward in York of a Saturday night over the past few months.

You get the odd steady week, it's very unpredictable.

The fact there are relatively few incidents is testament to all the hard put out in by TOC staff and BTP; I'm not actually normally on the station but give up 75% of my Saturdays to support my TOC's contribution to 'Op Vanguard'.

I've been seriously assaulted once in the last three years, there's the odd scuffle and plenty of verbals, but I feel really sorry for all the Traincrew and regular passengers suffering because of this vile minority that cannot handle their drink.

 

[ainsworth74]

Dry trains don't really work - on an evening York's layout makes it tricky to enforce, but this is largely successful, and on a morning it is totally impractical to target all outlying stations, in much the same way that enforcing "unfit to be on the railway" is difficult due to sheer volume and the strains on BTP resources.

Perhaps not but I suspect there are some stations where it might 'profitable' to regularly target. The Middlesbrough to York services for example seem to get rammed with those going to York to get smashed at Thornaby. On each occasion I've done the journey on a Saturday maybe 20 or 30 people board at Middlesbrough (none of them seeming to be drinking), then 100+ will board at Thornaby all drinking (some probably already tipsy) and a few more non-drinkers will join on the way to York (Yarm, Northallerton and Thirsk).

So, from my perspective, making the train dry and then targeting Thornaby could be quite effective. At least until they wise up, but then in that case why not just follow them to their next choice (probably Middlesbrough)

 

[Hellfire]

Just out of interest, is there a specific byelaw that allows TOCs to refuse travel to those deemed to be drunk?

Airlines have had the power to refuse permission to board for years but it's obviously a bit easier when you only have one entrance/exit door onto the relevant mode of transportation.

 

[najaB]

Just out of interest, is there a specific byelaw that allows TOCs to refuse travel to those deemed to be drunk?

Here you go, in full:

4. Intoxication and possession of intoxicating liquor
(1) No person shall enter or remain on the railway where such person is unfit to enter or remain on the railway as a result of being in a state of intoxication.
(2) Where reasonable notice is, or has been, given prohibiting intoxicating liquor on any train service, no person shall have any intoxicating liquor with him on it, or attempt to enter such a train with intoxicating liquor with him.
(3) Where an authorised person reasonably believes that any person is unfit to enter or remain on the railway, or has with him intoxicating liquor contrary to Byelaw 4(2), an authorised person may:
(i) require him to leave the railway; and
(ii) prevent him entering or remaining on the railway until an authorised person is satisfied that he has no intoxicating liquor with him and/or is no longer in an unfit condition.

 

[wensley]

Here you go, in full:

Beat me to it!

Airlines have had the power to refuse permission to board for years but it's obviously a bit easier when you only have one entrance/exit door onto the relevant mode of transportation.

Exactly. Added to this the fact that many who are refused are liable to kick off, and subsequently be arrested, you've got to be careful you don't lose all your BTP officers away doing lock-ups too early in the evening.

That said, we will challenge the ones that are stupidly drunk, the ones who are a danger to themselves, and who are downright unpleasant.
However, to enforce Bylaw 4(1) fully you would need a small army.

Perhaps not but I suspect there are some stations where it might 'profitable' to regularly target. The Middlesbrough to York services for example seem to get rammed with those going to York to get smashed at Thornaby. On each occasion I've done the journey on a Saturday maybe 20 or 30 people board at Middlesbrough (none of them seeming to be drinking), then 100+ will board at Thornaby all drinking (some probably already tipsy) and a few more non-drinkers will join on the way to York (Yarm, Northallerton and Thirsk).

So, from my perspective, making the train dry and then targeting Thornaby could be quite effective. At least until they wise up, but then in that case why not just follow them to their next choice (probably Middlesbrough)

This approach simply doesn't work:

A) We do get a significant volume joining at Middlesborough, as well as Thornaby, and then still reasonable numbers at Yarm, Northallerton and Thirsk. The problem is by no means isolated to Thornaby on this line-of-route.
B) You enforce at one station and not the others and it instantly creates conflict if some folk make it onto the train with drink at Yarm, while others have had it binned at Thornaby.
C) Dry trains in the AM aren't the answer - publicans need to stop serving people to are already too drunk.
D) It's still a massive drain on resources and just shifts the problem as you suggest.

The TOCs have already put a disproportionate amount of time and resource into addressing this problem, alongside the BTP. York on a Saturday is a massive team effort and we are all very good at dealing with each other's 'problem trains', and have various methods of work which address the PTI risk.

However, all we can really do is control the issue when they return to the station, after they get off those trains (as early as 1030 on a morning) they are out of our sphere of influence until they stagger back at 1900, 2000 or 2100 - full of gallons of beer!

 

[ainsworth74]

A) We do get a significant volume joining at Middlesborough, as well as Thornaby, and then still reasonable numbers at Yarm, Northallerton and Thirsk. The problem is by no means isolated to Thornaby on this line-of-route.

If you say so but that has never been my experience.

 

[wensley]

If you say so but that has never been my experience.

I think you've been lucky ... but it does go in cycles.

Having spent the best part of three years dealing with this problem alongside the day job many of us are fairly good at spotting the patterns now.

Admittedly Middlesborough isn't my problem directly, but I am friends with the ASM and he assures me there is an issue there, which is certainly reflected in what we all see washing up at York for the return journeys.

 

[DarloRich]

For the purposes of balance i want to say that i have used these trains on a regular basis and they aren't as bad as is suggested.

I dont want to go further with my views other than to say while i dont think things are as bad as suggested by some my front line colleagues on these trains (and all late trains) have my respect.

I will agree that is does seem to be cyclical: trouble>btp/toc crack down> less trouble> no issues>resource withdrawn>more trouble etc

Race days are the worst!

EDIT: i think from personal experience of being one of the drunks (from time to time in the past - hopefully not a bad one!) is that the last trains are so early. You are forced into a position of trying to finish your night out at 20:00 so you go early and spend all day on the pop. It is a problem with north east drinking culture generally rather than the railways sole issue to solve.

DOUBLE EDIT! Not seeking to be argumentative just offering a view form the other side of the fence.

 

[wensley]

For the purposes of balance i want to say that i have used these trains on a regular basis and they aren't as bad as is suggested.

I don't want to go further with my views other than to say while I don't think things are as bad as suggested by some my front line colleagues on these trains (and all late trains) have my respect.

I beg to differ! Having seen some of the states people end up in, and some of the things they get up to, it's pretty damn bad. Every week varies in terms of volume of passengers, and the 'baseline' of low level D&D type behaviour remains unchanged, the occasionally you have a particularly busy week and/or someone decides to expose themselves, has a trip/slip, starts a fight, etc.

I can block out most of it now, but that shows the sad state of affairs that it had become 'normal'. However, speaking to many infrequent, and generally just sober, passengers their reactions are measure enough that this simply isn't acceptable.

I will agree that is does seem to be cyclical: trouble>btp/toc crack down> less trouble> no issues>resource withdrawn>more trouble etc

I'm not sure I fully agree with this, the TOCs now commit a generally steady level of resource (save for race days when this is increased), and the problem (in safety terms) is largely under control as a result of this.

In terms of crack-downs we are kind of at the mercy of BTP commitments, coming out of football season there has been a notable increase in PCs available, and this has enabled a much more robust approach.

Race days are the worst!

I largely disagree with this, there is certainly an increased crowd volume, but the majority are coming for a day out, not just to get drunk (although many do). The level of planning and resource committed to race weekends mean that they largely pass off without drama, and issues can be tackled quickly and effectively.

I think from personal experience of being one of the drunks (from time to time in the past - hopefully not a bad one!) is that the last trains are so early. You are forced into a position of trying to finish your night out at 20:00 so you go early and spend all day on the pop. It is a problem with north east drinking culture generally rather than the railways sole issue to solve.

I agree with the comment regarding drinking culture - and I'd go as far as to say it's nationwide. What I can't get is why people can't just have as steady afternoon of drinking, then when they get home have a few more beers.
I'm not afraid of having a good drink, and I have been known to have the odd beer too many but I certainly do not go out with the intention of puking my guts up, losing my memory and having a fight.

There is no demand, in my experience, for later trains to these destinations, other than for these kind of morons - so it's a bit of a lose-lose situation for the TOCs.

 

[DarloRich]

I beg to differ! Having seen some of the states people end up in, and some of the things they get up to, it's pretty damn bad. Every week varies in terms of volume of passengers, and the 'baseline' of low level D&D type behaviour remains unchanged, the occasionally you have a particularly busy week and/or someone decides to expose themselves, has a trip/slip, starts a fight, etc.

Ok. i haven't seen as many bad problems but dont use the trains weekly. I will bow to your on the spot knowledge. Most of the things I saw were drunken people trying to cop off and the occasional drunken "fight" when someone tried to cop of with someone else partner! Not always men starting the fights!

I do wonder if i have a higher threshold for this sort of thing? Perhaps having been there in the past I can understand the people involved more than those who haven't. Being a respectable and approaching middle aged man with a commitments i rarely drink now!

I can block out most of it now, but that shows the sad state of affairs that it had become 'normal'. However, speaking to many infrequent, and generally just sober, passengers their reactions are measure enough that this simply isn't acceptable.

I am not suggesting it is right nor seeking to defend antisocial behavior just that the approach most on here want wont work either. The alcohol ban is good at sending a message but does nothing to stop people drinking off the station/train.

I'm not sure I fully agree with this, the TOCs now commit a generally steady level of resource (save for race days when this is increased), and the problem (in safety terms) is largely under control as a result of this.

In terms of crack-downs we are kind of at the mercy of BTP commitments, coming out of football season there has been a notable increase in PCs available, and this has enabled a much more robust approach.

I was viewing it as BTP led or at least with them as the key to making things change. Do North Yorks/Cleveland/Durham Police not get involved anymore? They could offer more resource in conjunction with the BTP

I largely disagree with this, there is certainly an increased crowd volume, but the majority are coming for a day out, not just to get drunk (although many do). The level of planning and resource committed to race weekends mean that they largely pass off without drama, and issues can be tackled quickly and effectively.

That must have changed as i always found race day the worst in terms of numbers and volume if not behaviour. Although i have seen there is a much bigger operation on the station these days

I agree with the comment regarding drinking culture - and I'd go as far as to say it's nationwide. What I can't get is why people can't just have as steady afternoon of drinking, then when they get home have a few more beers.
I'm not afraid of having a good drink, and I have been known to have the odd beer too many but I certainly do not go out with the intention of puking my guts up, losing my memory and having a fight.

There is no demand, in my experience, for later trains to these destinations, other than for these kind of morons - so it's a bit of a lose-lose situation for the TOCs.

I dont see the same issues down here although our trains run later but it may well be less concentrated. The issues at York are condensed into 3or 4 trains. I am not sure many people go out with the intention of drinking themselves blotto, vomiting and then look to have a fight although many people do like to get drunk. It is a sad fact of life.

But might later trains help thin the problem out and make it possible to go out at 4 and not 12? We drink an awful to in the north east and certain sections of the community (and we all know which ones) drink above that level. The question is why.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

But might later trains help thin the problem out and make it possible to go out at 4 and not 12? We drink an awful to in the north east and certain sections of the community (and we all know which ones) drink above that level. The question is why.

Maybe there is something in that - when coming back home in the early hours of Saturday have been on a few standing room only trains out of St.Pancras between 2 and 4 a.m. and have not encountered any drink related instances. Although maybe most people heading in to the capital do other things (like go to a show or for a meal) and not just to drink for the sake of drinking alone so maybe some other activities so people don't spend all of their time drinking may alleviate the situation as well.

 

[telstarbox]

Is it worse at York than say Ascot or Aintree when they have racing on?

 

[wensley]

Ok. i haven't seen as many bad problems but dont use the trains weekly. I will bow to your on the spot knowledge. Most of the things I saw were drunken people trying to cop off and the occasional drunken "fight" when someone tried to cop of with someone else partner! Not always men starting the fights!

Sometimes it can be as mild as that, often it isn't!
And you're quite right ... some of the women are down-right scary.

Ok.
I am not suggesting it is right nor seeking to defend antisocial behavior just that the approach most on here want wont work either. The alcohol ban is good at sending a message but does nothing to stop people drinking off the station/train.

Exactly. I certainly don't see dry trains as the answer. The railway is all but powerless to solve the problem rather than control it.

I was viewing it as BTP led or at least with them as the key to making things change. Do North Yorks/Cleveland/Durham Police not get involved anymore? They could offer more resource in conjunction with the BTP

BTP lead 'Op Vanguard' but the operational management of platforms, trains and PTI remains with the TOCs, and the BTP provide backup only if strictly necessary. There does seem to be some joint working with civil forces, but not sure this is totally effective. Mind you, each force will have their own priorities.

That must have changed as i always found race day the worst in terms of numbers and volume if not behaviour. Although i have seen there is a much bigger operation on the station these days.

Racedays remain by far the busiest, but I wouldn't say the level of issues increases proportionally. Time will tell as it's John Smith's in a few weeks...

I dont see the same issues down here although our trains run later but it may well be less concentrated. The issues at York are condensed into 3or 4 trains. I am not sure many people go out with the intention of drinking themselves blotto, vomiting and then look to have a fight although many people do like to get drunk. It is a sad fact of life.

But might later trains help thin the problem out and make it possible to go out at 4 and not 12? We drink an awful to in the north east and certain sections of the community (and we all know which ones) drink above that level. The question is why.

I honestly don't think it would make any difference. You'd simply shift the problem to a different time of day. Society seems broken to me in this respect, and maybe it is worse in the NE. This is 'normal' for me so it's hard to tell!!

And listening to conversations travelling to work many do go out to get themselves in an absolute state and pick a fight, although there are plenty just looking for a good time.

Maybe there is something in that - when coming back home in the early hours of Saturday have been on a few standing room only trains out of St.Pancras between 2 and 4 a.m. and have not encountered any drink related instances. Although maybe most people heading in to the capital do other things (like go to a show or for a meal) and not just to drink for the sake of drinking alone so maybe some other activities so people don't spend all of their time drinking may alleviate the situation as well.

A very different experience indeed!! Some of these folk we deal with every week go out to get stupidly drunk, no other purpose. Mind you ... if you let them carry on until the early hours they might not even make it back to the station

Is it worse at York than say Ascot or Aintree when they have racing on?

Without having attendance figures to hand it's hard to say. Any large event that is associated with alcohol consumption tends to be a big deal for the railway.

John Smiths and Ebor are your biggest meets at York, with up to 45,000 being recorded at the racecourse last year on the busiest day of Ebor. Around one third of those attending tend to arrive by rail, and of which I'd say 20% are purely there for the drinking.

 

[samj]

I didn't realise York was such an issue. Is it just generally worse in the North East? I have been on countless summer Saturday trains to Blackpool and they have been interesting. Mind you the party on a Saturday in Blackpool starts at lunchtime. Do any of these problems occur in the south?

 

[wensley]

I didn't realise York was such an issue. Is it just generally worse in the North East? I have been on countless summer Saturday trains to Blackpool and they have been interesting. Mind you the party on a Saturday in Blackpool starts at lunchtime. Do any of these problems occur in the south?

It seems to cycle in the NE, but it's a more widespread problem than just York.
The party for those from Teesside begins on the 0928 ex-Middlesborough...

 

[sheff1]

VTEC have become much more robust in revenue protection terms, so hopefully the number of freeloaders is under control.

I entirely agree with regards turning them away, but BTP and NYP risk passing the problem back and forth. It still doesn't solve it.

Good to hear about the revenue protection.

If they are turned away there will, of course, be grief at the outset but, in time, even the dimmest would get the message that they are not welcome and so would not bother travelling from Doncaster to York in the first place.

 

[Robertj21a]

.
In my travels (not necessarily by train) I always feel that the 'true drunks' tend to be in the more northern areas - most of the North East, Merseyside, Blackpool, Greater Manchester etc, not so much Yorkshire. The more southern drunks may well be the 'Essex Boys' and a few bits of London. Wales has a few problem areas too - and, of course, Scotland........

I really do wish that somebody/anybody would come up with a good explanation for *WHY* do people in the UK need to get drunk so much. Most other countries don't have the problem to anything like the same extent - so why do we ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I really do wish that somebody/anybody would come up with a good explanation for *WHY* do people in the UK need to get drunk so much. Most other countries don't have the problem to anything like the same extent - so why do we ?

I find that the LM south WCML services have plenty of their fair share of drinkers, as do late-night (and early morning) U-Bahnen in German cities, as well as the Tube. The difference is that unlike in some other parts of the UK (and I do agree the North seems particularly afflicted, even as a Northerner in exile down South) they seem largely to be able to behave, and the late night "vomit comets" out of Euston are mostly full of sleepy people, the biggest misdemeanour being likely to be a bit of inadvertent overtravelling and a pricey taxi home.
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Woe betide alcohol gets on board but the possibility of a terrorist taking a laptop bomb on board is fine.

There is absolutely no point in doing that, which is why it doesn't get done and so there is barely any point guarding against it. An InterCity train is too low-density, long and thin for it to have enough of an effect, compared with say a busy station concourse or packed Tube train where it has occurred before.
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The xx28 Middlesborough services from 0928 to 1328 are almost consistently full and standing ex-Thornaby.

That's unacceptable. Another Northern/TPE overcrowding problem, though, that needs solving with trains of a proper length rather than stupid little 2-3 car DMUs. And having people crammed in is going to exacerbate any social issues on those trains (which is why I was pleased to find that LM have finally had the nouse to up the last few trains from Euston on a Saturday evening to 12-car).

The issue is passengers pre-loading to cheapen their day out in York.
Stopping them drinking slows them down a bit, but these folk go out to get drunk, and some go out to cause trouble, and sadly stopping them drinking on a 45min or so train journey does little to reduce the impact of up to 12hrs solid drinking.

Yes, pre-loading is a massive societal issue. I note JDW have started a campaign "don't pre-drink, come to the pub" and I wish them well with it (even if it is mainly intended to increase profits). But I don't know how we solve it. A high minimum price might work - if a pint from Tesco is £2.50 and from a pub is £3 (say) there is far less of a motivation not to drink in the pub, and as I tend to drink premium ciders etc in relatively small quantities in preference to larger quantities of cheap rubbish wouldn't do a lot to dent my pockets. But I just don't think there is the political will for that. Another option might be that as off-sales cause more of a societal issue with a financial cost, those could be taxed more than on-sales.
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I really do wish that somebody/anybody would come up with a good explanation for *WHY* do people in the UK need to get drunk so much. Most other countries don't have the problem to anything like the same extent - so why do we ?

The fact that we look down so much on many vital lines of "introductory" level work, meaning the only thing many people have to look forward to at the end of the week is getting smashed and having a fight?

If we respected all jobs as professionals like we used to, and everyone had a career path, it might work a bit better? Germany is more like that, as is Switzerland (the latter most notably not having a minimum wage but really not needing one).

 

[wensley]

That's unacceptable. Another Northern/TPE overcrowding problem, though, that needs solving with trains of a proper length rather than stupid little 2-3 car DMUs. And having people crammed in is going to exacerbate any social issues on those trains (which is why I was pleased to find that LM have finally had the nouse to up the last few trains from Euston on a Saturday evening to 12-car).

TPE are no happier with it than the punters.
If half of Teesside didn't feel the need to spend each Saturday binging in York then there wouldn't be this problem.

On a more serious note ... you can't run six car 185s to Teesside due to the short platform at Yarm, this has been looked at previously. Furthermore, where the demand clearly exists they do run an additional evening return from York. On a morning folk seem to spread across 4-5 trains, in the evening its 2-3.

Furthermore, you cannot blame this on TPE (who admittedly do suffer significant 'genuine' overcrowding elsewhere on the network), GC's HSTs (2+6) are regularly F&S from Hartlepool.

Yes, pre-loading is a massive societal issue. I note JDW have started a campaign "don't pre-drink, come to the pub" and I wish them well with it (even if it is mainly intended to increase profits). But I don't know how we solve it. A high minimum price might work - if a pint from Tesco is £2.50 and from a pub is £3 (say) there is far less of a motivation not to drink in the pub, and as I tend to drink premium ciders etc in relatively small quantities in preference to larger quantities of cheap rubbish wouldn't do a lot to dent my pockets. But I just don't think there is the political will for that. Another option might be that as off-sales cause more of a societal issue with a financial cost, those could be taxed more than on-sales.

It's got to the point where I personally think it can't be solved ... the business community (namely pubs and clubs) is happy raking in the cash, with the minority (Police, NHS and railway) seemingly picking up the tab. And besides, upping the prices wouldn't make much odds - I'd bet a lot of the cash being splashed in York each weekend is from the taxpayer anyway ... if you get my drift

 

[yorksrob]

TPE are no happier with it than the punters.
If half of Teesside didn't feel the need to spend each Saturday binging in York then there wouldn't be this problem.

Realistically though, York is always going to be a popular destination for a night out, whether they get paralytic or not, and the chances are that a lot of them are going to end up on the last train back. Particularly if those last trains back are relatively early as they seem to be in the North.

 

[wensley]

Realistically though, York is always going to be a popular destination for a night out, whether they get paralytic or not, and the chances are that a lot of them are going to end up on the last train back. Particularly if those last trains back are relatively early as they seem to be in the North.

But as I go on to explain below there's little that can be done! GC and TPE run extra trains where possible for events such as football / races / Bank Holidays.

There may be something in the argument that if you stack em in like cattle a few times it might put them off in the future

 

[DarloRich]

TPE are no happier with it than the punters.
If half of Teesside didn't feel the need to spend each Saturday binging in York then there wouldn't be this problem.

if you lived in the Boro you would turn to drink as well!

There may be something in the argument that if you stack em in like cattle a few times it might put them off in the future

or not run any trains and transfer the problem to mini bus companies. That is a solution that must have been considered

 

[wensley]

if you lived in the Boro you would turn to drink as well!

Well I didn't like to say anything...

or not run any trains and transfer the problem to mini bus companies. That is a solution that must have been considered

Franchised TOCs must provide a certain level of service so that wouldn't be an option!

 

[wensley]

See attached the platform awaiting the last Boro last night, about 10mins before departure. Roughly an equal number the other side of the bridge, and that was a quiet night!

 

[telstarbox]

Presumably Teesside revellers prefer to head down to York rather than drinking in Middlesbrough's establishments for whatever reason?

 

[wensley]

Presumably Teesside revellers prefer to head down to York rather than drinking in Middlesbrough's establishments for whatever reason?

Have you ever been to Boro?

It's a cheap day out (in terms of rail fare), a fairly short journey, and it's something different...

 

[telstarbox]

Well I didn't like to say anything...

Franchised TOCs must provide a certain level of service so that wouldn't be an option!

And not everyone using the late trains is boozed up or even on a night out, so withdrawing the trains completely is a rather crude tactic.
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Have you ever been to Boro?

It's a cheap day out (in terms of rail fare), a fairly short journey, and it's something different...

Yes I've been to both, although only out on the sauce in York which proves your point I suppose! Late trains out of London to Kent can be 'lively' as well with the last trains leaving around midnight.

Incidentally I was on the Transpennine Ale Trail yesterday and although there wasn't that much drinking on the trains themselves (and no ban in place), there were many boozed up pax so an alcohol ban can only achieve so much.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

.


I really do wish that somebody/anybody would come up with a good explanation for *WHY* do people in the UK need to get drunk so much. Most other countries don't have the problem to anything like the same extent - so why do we ?

Part of the inherent problem is the rate and speed at which most of us in the UK consume alcoholic drink and this is a legacy from the days when we had restricted hours. I recall some of my first trips abroad back in the 70s and it was often a comment from our continental cousins about how quickly we drank ' like the world was ending tomorrow', they hadn't heard of 'drinking up time'. When the licensing laws were relaxed it was pretty obvious we weren't going to drink at a slower rate overnight. In fact I was working the first Sunday of the new laws and recall how many people were staggering around trains and stations late afternoon/early evening
Then there is the switch from small convivial local pubs to the large drinking barns. People sitting round the table conversing in an old style small local will drink less over an evening than a crowd standing up in one of the massive chain pubs. Costs have risen for the smaller pubs putting a lot of them out of business so people go to the larger places or pick up cheap stuff at the supermarket.
I think it is laughable for Wetherspoon to berate people "pre-loading" as Wetherspoons are where many people go to "pre-load" before hitting the clubs!

 

[sheff1]

Part of the inherent problem is the rate and speed at which most of us in the UK consume alcoholic drink and this is a legacy from the days when we had restricted hours.

Add in the fact that back then the drinks of choice for most were lowish strength bitter or lager at between 3.3% - 4.5%. When higher strength beers became normal people continued to drink at the same speed .... then came alcopops/shots/bombs/flavoured ciders etc etc .

 

[clagmonster]

BTP tonight had 1 Sergeant and 9 PCs on the station, there were 20 TOC security staff from VTEC, TPE and GC plus three additional TOC managers and the normal station staff.

The main 'problem' destinations seem to be Doncaster, Hartlepool, Thornaby, Middlesborough, and to a lesser extent, Newcastle.

xx16 Midlesborough services after 1800 get progressively worse.
Doncaster-bound services after 1930 tend to get very busy.
The final GC Sunderland at 2101 is also very well patronised.

You quote those figures, there are also BTP at at least some of the drinkers' home stations. Doncaster on a Saturday night will normally have half a dozen BTP, together with sometimes the EC security bods. The only drunk passengers tend to be those arriving, some on local trains presumably heading for a night out in Donny, but the Edinburgh - Doncaster always disgorges loads, some returning from York, some going out to Doncaster.