Airdrie-Bathgate service

[Damien1986]

Wouldn't you agree that Scotrail shouldn't have been promising people 4 trains per hour from Edinburgh to Glasgow via Bathgate if they can't get the rolling stock delivered on time? It will disappoint a lot of people!

 

[68000]

They shouldn't be "sitting" all the time
They should be running Bathgate - Edinburgh driver training

I know what they should be doing. This week they are not doing it and ScotRail have allowed them to sit at Bathgate whilst the services which the units were taken from leave statins with customers behind and cram others in. That is the crux of the problem for this week.

 

[Damien1986]

Can't wait until class 318/class 320 units are cascaded onto the Argyle Line because although class 334 units are ok, I prefer the seating on the class 318/class 320 units as they are more comfortable. Would it be possible that say I was travelling 1110 Motherwell to Balloch on a Sunday it could be operated by a class 320 unit?

 

[MadCommuter]

I worked out, based on information on Scot-rail.co.uk, that the following rush hour services would be reduced in length (plus there are also some off-peak services affected, but that's unlikely to make any difference). Both of these have been confirmed anecdotally be members on Scot-rail.co.uk, and from what I hear it is not a pretty sight!

07:37 2L07 Larkhall-Dalmuir (GW085)
07:39 2F17 Coatbridge Central-Milngavie (GW082)
16:42 2L26 Milngavie-Larkhall (GW085)
17:34 1B08 Anderston-Lanark (GW082)

This accounts for the two units currently sitting in Bathgate LMD doing... well, nothing. I would suggest to avoid 2F17 and 2L26 for the time being; I don't know enough about the others.

There's also another unit going for training between Airdrie and Bathgate, but that's still in regular service. Apparently, it's diagram GW131 that will be removed. However, I don't have up to date diagrams for that. My best guess is that the following services will be de-strengthened once testing resumes between Airdrie and Bathgate, however I can't guarantee that this will be the case.

07:47 2G10 Gourock-Glasgow Central (a08:30)
16:18 2T05 Glasgow Central-Largs

I have no experience of either train, and I couldn't tell you what effect this will have. That said, IU doubt 2G10 will be an enjoyable journey if indeed it is de-strengthened.

AIUI, one there's enough 380s in service (which should only be a few weeks from what I understand; rail-britain will probably be able to give a better estimate), then this will release enough 334s from the Ayrshire/Inverclyde route to re-strengthen these services.

PS, I've never spoken to a season ticket before. I'm quite surprised at just how well a sheet of paper is able to type

Haha! This sheet of paper is very appreciative of the info. Sometimes I catch 2F17 and 2L26 so I will avoid these for now. I presume there will be a knock on affect to subsequent services too.

 

[me123]

Wouldn't you agree that Scotrail shouldn't have been promising people 4 trains per hour from Edinburgh to Glasgow via Bathgate if they can't get the rolling stock delivered on time? It will disappoint a lot of people!

There has been a suggestion that they will "only" run 2tph off peak if need be, indeed it now says it on Scotrail's website. (Click here, and look in "other trains for other projects"). Doing so, alongside de-strengthening services on the new route in the rush hour (as it will probably take a while to generate significant peak time demand on the route) will probably help to keep things balanced.

It's all been a bit tight, and there's been little room for any errors. So now that some things have gone a bit wrong (most notably the Class 380, but the new route hasn't had an easy time either) it's all beginning to fall apart. Hopefully, if everything gets itself back on track, the effects will be minimal.

 

[Damien1986]

Class 320 units will still be cascaded onto the Argyle Line won't they?

 

[me123]

Yes. There's supposed to be 8 class 320s moved to Argyle line duties to release another 8 class 334s for Airdrie-Bathgate. So it's very likely that this will go ahead as promised regardless of what happens elsewhere.

The stuff that's potentially going to cause problems down your way is the delayed introduction of Class 380 trains, which means that 334s and 318s will be required to cover existing Ayrshire services for a wee while longer, so you may see a delay to the promised service strengthening on the Argyle route.

 

[Damien1986]

So basically the class 320 units will operate on their own on the Argyle line instead of joined up to a class 318 unit!

 

[Bittern]

It's not like that's not already happened. 320s have been through Central Low Level own their own on ECS movements, and there have been a couple of line clearance runs to Lanark, though I don't know if they've been cleared on the Larkhall Branch or Carstairs yet.

 

[Damien1986]

In other words it's done a run from Glasgow to Lanark via Hamilton and Holytown and another run from Glasgow to Lanark via Bellshill and Shieldmuir then?

 

[Bittern]

I believe so. It left Central High Level, and I believe it followed the WCML down to Rutherglen where it joined the Argyle Line.

 

[CarterUSM]

It's not like that's not already happened. 320s have been through Central Low Level own their own on ECS movements, and there have been a couple of line clearance runs to Lanark, though I don't know if they've been cleared on the Larkhall Branch or Carstairs yet.

I'd be surprised if they weren't cleared for carstairs considering the 322 is almost identical.

 

[rail-britain]

Class 320 :
HA06 Service 563 Argyle Line
Cleared for Larkhall, Lanark, and Carstairs
Standard Class 318
Optional Class 334 and 320

Interesting Class 156 is now showing as optional on :
Glasgow - Ardrossan
Glasgow - Largs
As I suspected, it looks as if these services will temporarily be operated by 2 car class 156 from December to January, with 4 cars operating at peak time

 

[First ScotRail]

And where are they going to find the 156s from?

 

[rail-britain]

Wouldn't you agree that Scotrail shouldn't have been promising people 4 trains per hour from Edinburgh to Glasgow via Bathgate

ScotRail have not been promising this, the specification comes from Transport Scotland
Even at the opening of the replacement Bathgate railway station all the hoo-haa "a regular service of four trains per hour" was made by Transport Scotland
What did ScotRail say?
Nothing, not a thing, any queries about this was referred to the rep from Transport Scotland
All they would confirm is that a regular electric service would operate between Glasgow and Airdrie
When questioned about between Bathgate and Edinburgh, again referred to the rep from Transport Scotland
"There will be a regular service of four trains per hour from Bathgate to Edinburgh"
When questioned further, "I see what you mean, that that doesn't add up, er, er"
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And where are they going to find the 156s from?

cough, There will be some spare Class 156s from December, displaced by the Class 158 units from Edinburgh - Bathgate
Other services are likely to be reduced from 6 to 4 cars, thus releasing the necessary number of units required

Personally, I can see a lot of missed targets and complaints from December
Again, this all contingency but as the weeks go by it looks more likely

 

[djw1981]

If the 380's are (as alleged at the time of them being ordered) largely the same as the 350's; and the 350's were intordiuced wiythout all these problems why didn;t TS demand the same spec as the 350's, instead of agreeing to be the Siemens testbed for the systems it hopes to put into its new platform for the Thameslink bid.

 

[CarterUSM]

Class 320 :

Interesting Class 156 is now showing as optional on :
Glasgow - Ardrossan
Glasgow - Largs
As I suspected, it looks as if these services will temporarily be operated by 2 car class 156 from December to January, with 4 cars operating at peak time

156's have always been cleared for these routes and available as a contingency for OHLE problems etc, Ayr conductors have the route signed and have a diagram where they travel pass on a Largs service for route retention
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If the 380's are (as alleged at the time of them being ordered) largely the same as the 350's; and the 350's were intordiuced wiythout all these problems why didn;t TS demand the same spec as the 350's, instead of agreeing to be the Siemens testbed for the systems it hopes to put into its new platform for the Thameslink bid.

Would it have been possible to just order 350's or a variation thereof ? I'm not familiar with the units or their spec however.

 

[Damien1986]

So to allow the cascade of class 334 units from this line we will see class 156 dmus utilised and wouldn't you agree that since they probably had diesel trains in the past the people in these areas will probaly be blase about them. Also wouldn't it be a good idea to cascade some class 158 dmus onto the Glasgow and Kilmarnock to Girvan/Stranraer/Carlisle/Newcastle services so that class 156 units could be utilised for strenghtning on services to Largs,Ardrossan and Ayr etc.

 

[rail-britain]

156's have always been cleared for these routes and available as a contingency for OHLE problems etc, Ayr conductors have the route signed and have a diagram where they travel pass on a Largs service for route retention

The Class 156 has just been added to the Network Supplement in the last few days
Clearly a hint that the route will see these units very shortly
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Would it have been possible to just order 350's or a variation thereof ? I'm not familiar with the units or their spec however.

The Class 380 is based on the Class 350, hence why I went down to London Midland in August
However that is where the similarity ends
The Class 380 coaches are longer and the train is heavier as a result, so has therefore been fitted with a modified braking system
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

wouldn't it be a good idea to cascade some class 158 dmus onto the Glasgow and Kilmarnock to Girvan/Stranraer/Carlisle/Newcastle services

Class 158 units are not approved for any of those routes

 

[Damien1986]

Don't you think the bosses at Scotrail should at least consider it seeing as class 156 units might just have to operate Ayrshire Coast services due to problems with class 380 units!

 

[MacCookie]

Class 320 :
HA06 Service 563 Argyle Line
Cleared for Larkhall, Lanark, and Carstairs
Standard Class 318
Optional Class 334 and 320

This is from ScotRail's Track Access Agreement with Network Rail. If you're going to quote from it, it would help if you understand what it actually means.

Standard equipment
5.1 In respect of each Service specified in column 1 of Table 5.1, the
Train Operator has Firm Rights to Passenger Train Slots matching the
performance characteristics of the Specified Equipment set out
opposite that Service in column 2 of that Table (“Standard Specified
Equipment”).
Additional equipment
5.2 In respect of each Service set out in column 1 of Table 5.1, the
Train Operator has Contingent Rights to Train Slots matching the
performance characteristics of the additional Specified Equipment set
out opposite that Service in column 3 of that Table (“Additional
Specified Equipment”).
http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/message/223051

Operators can use rolling stock that is not part of their standard or optional equipment if required. It does not indicate what rolling stock can actually be used. (For example, 380s have been "Optional Equipment" for Ayrshire and Inverclyde since the summer, yet they've only just been passed for these routes: http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/message/230097)

Interesting Class 156 is now showing as optional on :
Glasgow - Ardrossan
Glasgow - Largs
As I suspected, it looks as if these services will temporarily be operated by 2 car class 156 from December to January, with 4 cars operating at peak time

That's been there for ages. It was there when ScotRail submitted an amendment in April to add the Class 380s in. I suspect it's been there for longer.

Don't you think the bosses at Scotrail should at least consider it seeing as class 156 units might just have to operate Ayrshire Coast services due to problems with class 380 units!

158s are not permitted to operate in passenger service on the GSW. They can only operate empty. This is an infrastructure issue rather than anything to do with the TAA that "Rail-Britain" was quoting from.

There's a full list of routes available for 158s on the scot-rail website: http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/page/Class+158+Route+Clearance

It may be possible to pass 158s on these routes, but the fact that they've been passed for ECS only at the moment would suggest that Network Rail have already looked at it and found that there are problems.

Ewan

 

[Pumbaa]

Would it have been possible to just order 350's or a variation thereof ? I'm not familiar with the units or their spec however.

No - the safety case for the 350 units became invalidated with increased rules on crash-worthiness and drivers visibility with the gangway. As with the 390s, the EU permits add-on orders for the same operators ie 350/2s, which were ordered after the changes, and would also apply for 350/3s if an order went ahead.

380s reflect these changes, with both the cab being adapted for crash-worthiness and increased visibility for the driver. This is a big problem with the 350/450/444, with one driver in particular commenting on their introduction onto the WCML "it's like driving a big f*cking washing machine".

 

[Damien1986]

Have the class 320 units been cleared for use to Larkhall,Carstairs or Coatbridge Central yet? and will the class 320 units be used on Sunday Argyle Line services such as Motherwell to Balloch via Blantyre and Yoker ,Lanark to Milngavie via Shieldmuir and Bellshill etc?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Sorry guys, this has escaped my attention, but according to SR's Extrenal Rrelations Manager writing a letter in TRUK, the very first post I made (based upon TRUK's info) is incorect. The corrections to the service are as follows:

The current Milngavie-High St (Glasgow) service will be extended to Edinburgh;
Airdrie wil have 2tph to each of Helensburgh, Balloch and Milngavie, not 4tph to Milngavie;
This leaves Milngavie with 2tph to Queen St LL and onwards, and 2tph to Central LL and onwards.

Thanks

 

[Damien1986]

Sorry guys, this has escaped my attention, but according to SR's Extrenal Rrelations Manager writing a letter in TRUK, the very first post I made (based upon TRUK's info) is incorect. The corrections to the service are as follows:

The current Milngavie-High St (Glasgow) service will be extended to Edinburgh;
Airdrie wil have 2tph to each of Helensburgh, Balloch and Milngavie, not 4tph to Milngavie;
This leaves Milngavie with 2tph to Queen St LL and onwards, and 2tph to Central LL and onwards.

Thanks

What does TRUK stand for anyway!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

What does TRUK stand for anyway!

Today's Railways United Kingdom, it's a very, very good railway magazine (probably the best for all-round rail news!)

 

[swt_passenger]

The Class 380 coaches are longer and the train is heavier as a result, so has therefore been fitted with a modified braking system

They're no longer than the 444, which presumably has functioning brakes, so I'd be surprised if the 380 brakes needed any significant modifications. Modern Railways November reckons the reported brake seizure under test was a symptom of communication problems between coupled units due to software issues.

 

[gordonjahn]

Sorry guys, this has escaped my attention, but according to SR's Extrenal Rrelations Manager writing a letter in TRUK, the very first post I made (based upon TRUK's info) is incorect. The corrections to the service are as follows:

The current Milngavie-High St (Glasgow) service will be extended to Edinburgh;
Airdrie wil have 2tph to each of Helensburgh, Balloch and Milngavie, not 4tph to Milngavie;
This leaves Milngavie with 2tph to Queen St LL and onwards, and 2tph to Central LL and onwards.

Thanks

The times and pricing are all in the National Rail timetable now - the Milngavie - Edinburgh services are the fast ones and the Helensburgh-Edinburgh are the stopping ones. Pricing is there too (and there's no evening peak on this route).

 

[rail-britain]

The times and pricing are all in the National Rail timetable now - the Milngavie - Edinburgh services are the fast ones and the Helensburgh-Edinburgh are the stopping ones. Pricing is there too (and there's no evening peak on this route)

These have been available since September, however are based on the planned and submitted timetable

This timetable is now likely to be replaced by a much simpler one
The Airdrie - Bathgate service will now be split, with the non-stop service terminating at Airdrie eastbound
The quarter-hourly Bathgate - Edinburgh service will be retained by the continued use of Class 158 units on the alternative services, this continuing the above service beyond Bathgate
This is likely to apply until February 2011

 

[Damien1986]

If the Motherwell to Lanark via Holytown line hadn't been reopened would the present 50 minutes past the hour Motherwell to Milngavie via Blantyre have been 40 minutes past the hour Coatbridge Central to Milngavie services?