Airdrie-Bathgate service

[rail-britain]

They are separate projects but that does not mean one has nothing to do with the other. The A2B project is quite clearly relying on the 380 project delivering to allow the 334 cascade

No it's not
From December the Class 334 units will operate as per planned
The only difference may be that not all the units may be available

Every time I have presented questions to either project I have to quite often repeat the same question to either Project Manager

 

[Failed Unit]

As a project manager I would definately have the 380s as a risk to my project. It is simple if they don't arrive I won't have as many 334s as planned. Result somewhere in Scotland suffers as a result. Let's say the units for A-b are ringfenced or the maintenance cycles on EMUs are reduced like on thameslink when the turbos where late. You are adding a big risk in the project if you get a good Scottish winter. No project manager worth his salt on the A-b project would not have the 380s as a risk. They will probably have plan b & c in place but they will definately not be ignoring it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Having travelled regularly from Musselburgh to Edinburgh Park and back, I think it's sad that no through trains from North Berwick are planned to western Edinburgh and beyond avoiding the need to walk across Waverley. Shortage of paths through Waverley can't be an excuse as several trains from North Berwick run as far as the end of the wires at Haymarket.

I suspect it is mainly a performance risk. If the chips are down service terminates at Waverley rather than Haymarket. It may be one risk too far to import delays from two congested parts of network onto the ECML. Likewise North Berwick users would not be happy if the turned into the new Newcraighall service with constant cappings as a result. Late from the West Coast? Terminate it at haymarket and give north Berwick pax a bus.

The fact that most trains will be 3 car is probably another reason as it may overcrown north Berwick services too much. Hopefully when Edinburgh - dunblane is wired through services can happen.

 

[rail-britain]

The A2B project manager has no interest in the Class 380, he has made that very clear to me
There is a requirement for a minimum number of EMUs, and that is going to be met

However, the ScotRail cascade allows for more EMUs to be added to that later in 2011

The main risk is on the initial provision of Class 380 units in December, the requirement being 22 units
The press have blown this out of proportion as at the last communication this is not likely to change

What is likely to change is the phased introduction, during October and November
There was then a press launch on 25 October, and this has already been notified as delayed (new date to be decided)
It is this notification that The Herald have "followed up"

 

[Failed Unit]

Very unusual attitude for a project manager. It looks like the need 8 emus on top of what they already use. The may be able to get this by more intensive diagramming. But if I was the PM I would be worried. If trains on other routes are short formed as a result of my project it reflects badly on the company however you look at it services are fine today. If services are shortformed from December because of the lack of 380s Scotrail will get more negative press for this than the good news of the route opening.

 

[tbtc]

The A2B project manager has no interest in the Class 380

Seems very blase...

Unless the idea is to make the new service look busy by running short units until the 380s are sorted...

 

[rail-britain]

Unless the idea is to make the new service look busy by running short units until the 380s are sorted...

There will 32 Class 334 units operating on A2B from December, no changes throughout ; all services will operate as single units

The difference may be on the Argyle Line
Between December and March there is an increasing requirement for 4 Class 318 units, as some of the last Class 380 units are introduced
It is assumed these units would be used to strengthen existing services, so these may well operate as single units for some time during 2011

 

[68000]

No it's not

Yes it is

From December the Class 334 units will operate as per planned
The only difference may be that not all the units may be available

Every time I have presented questions to either project I have to quite often repeat the same question to either Project Manager

They have been planned that way because the plan is to cascade the 334 to A2B following the 380 introduction on the Ayrshire lines. Now, if the 380 fails to deliver that bit of the plan, other contingencies will kick in.

 

[MadCommuter]

My impression from the above comments is that the A2B project will commence as per planned, with the full compliment of 334s. Therefore, it would seem that should the 380 introduction not be able to occur as per plan, than a contingency plan will kick in. This sounds like the reduction of 6 car units on the Argyle line during peak periods?

It appears to me that despite the two project managers on A2B and 380s having no interest in either PM's project is very short-sighted from a publicity point of view. There is clearly an overlap between the two. If it weren't for A2B, would the 380s be coming on board? And likewise, vice versa.

 

[tbtc]

It appears to me that despite the two project managers on A2B and 380s having no interest in either PM's project is very short-sighted from a publicity point of view. There is clearly an overlap between the two

A spokesperson for the Left Hand said it had no interest in what the Right Hand was doing...

 

[Bittern]

The new Bathgate Station opened this morning, but unfortunately the line was subject to overhead wire problems. 158s and 170s used the new station, and apparently 334 021 "Larkhall" and a sister were present as well at some point.

I plan to check it out this weekend as well as heading over to Bo'ness for some 37 (and hopefully no. 17) power!

 

[jamesontheroad]

The new Bathgate Station opened this morning, but unfortunately the line was subject to overhead wire problems. 158s and 170s used the new station, and apparently 334 021 "Larkhall" and a sister were present as well at some point.

Good news about the opening obviously drowned out by the disruptions...

http://news.stv.tv/scotland/east-central/203441-power-failure-mars-opening-of-new-station/

 

[rail-britain]

the line was subject to overhead wire problems

Network Rail completely at fault on this one
There was NO testing of the OHLE with an actual train
Even this basic procedure is normally carried out
Ironically, this test was planned for AFTER the first day of driver training with Class 334 units

Equally, a pair of Class 334 units is operating, in case one fails the other can be used to clear the line
However, not much good if the OHLE fails...

 

[Damien1986]

Considering there are rumours that problems have occurred with the new class 380 units, don't you think it would make sense if Scotrail kept a few class 318/class 320 units spare should problems occur? and shouldn't they cascade at least a few more class 320 units to the Argyle line since there will be more class 334 units on the North Clyde Line and when will the Class 320 units actually appear on the Argyle Line?

 

[rail-britain]

Considering there are rumours that problems have occurred with the new class 380 units

No longer rumours, they are fact and these started before the units had even arrived in the UK

it would make sense if Scotrail kept a few class 318/class 320 units spare should problems occur?
and shouldn't they cascade at least a few more class 320 units to the Argyle line since there will be more class 334 units on the North Clyde Line and when will the Class 320 units actually appear on the Argyle Line?

Have you missed the cascade program?
As more Class 380 units enter service this transfers Class 334 units to North Clyde, then Class 318 units to Argyle Line
These spare Class 318 units will be used to strengthen existing services (so from December will run as 3 cars instead of 6 cars)

Finally, the Class 320 units will be operating mainly on the Argyle Line, from December
However, at least one unit will be unavailable from January 2011 to allow for maintenance and internal refurb / conversion

There are always "spare" units to take into account the PVR, maintenance, etc
So once a unit is being worked on it can't readily or easily be rushed into service!
Hence why the Class 314 diagrams reduce to just 14 from December, so that a further refurb can commence

 

[ianthescot]

Finally, the Class 320 units will be operating mainly on the Argyle Line, from December
However, at least one unit will be unavailable from January 2011 to allow for maintenance and internal refurb / conversion

Would be interesting to see when the drivers will get 320 training then!

 

[Damien1986]

I haven't missed the programme at all, in fact I 've known about it for ages. What I am trying to say is that should the Class 380 units experience problems on the Ayrshire Coast/Inverclyde lines shouldn't Scotrail keep at least a couple of Class 318/Class 320 units spare should problems occur whilst in operation.Also shouldn't Scotrail keep at least a few Class 318/Class 320 units on the North Clyde Line to operate Airdrie to Balloch via Singer and Springburn to Dalmuir via Yoker services as they are terminating services rather than through trains to Edinburgh!

 

[MCR247]

I haven't missed the programme at all, in fact I 've known about it for ages. What I am trying to say is that should the Class 380 units experience problems on the Ayrshire Coast/Inverclyde lines shouldn't Scotrail keep at least a couple of Class 318/Class 320 units spare should problems occur whilst in operation.Also shouldn't Scotrail keep at least a few Class 318/Class 320 units on the North Clyde Line to operate Airdrie to Balloch via Singer and Springburn to Dalmuir via Yoker services as they are terminating services rather than through trains to Edinburgh!

How can they keep some spare if they will still be used? 318s and 320s will be needed on their own services

 

[rail-britain]

should the Class 380 units experience problems on the Ayrshire Coast/Inverclyde lines shouldn't Scotrail keep at least a couple of Class 318/Class 320 units spare should problems occur whilst in operation
Also shouldn't Scotrail keep at least a few Class 318/Class 320 units on the North Clyde Line to operate Airdrie to Balloch via Singer and Springburn to Dalmuir via Yoker services as they are terminating services rather than through trains to Edinburgh!

The Class 320 units will continue to operate on the North Clyde lines, alongside the Class 334 units which will also operate, but predominantly on Airdrie services

The main issues will arise if there are not 22 Class 380 units available from commencement of the next timetable
So what benefit is there having "more" spare units?
Equally, where do you get such units, when you are effectively short 9 units from the commencement of the next timetable
Surely you would want to suspend / defer the cascade until the Class 380 units are available, and that is what is currently planned

At the moment some services are operating as 3 car instead of 6 car, thus releasing 3 Class 334 units for driver and route training on A2B
Once completed these units will be returned to passenger use, but that is likely towards the end of November

 

[Damien1986]

Considering they are reopening the Airdrie to Bathgate route don't you think it should encourage Scotrail to introduce Sunday trains all year round at Holytown because let's face it they wouldn't operate the services to Glasgow via Whifflet in the run up to Christmas if they weren't popular however they could be in the form of Argyll Line services from Lanark to Glasgow with one train running via Holytown and the other via Shieldmuir. As well as this the first there would be a minor adjustment in the departure times from Lanark as well as introducing an earlier departure than at present.Here is an example of what could be done
Outward leg
Lanark dep 0942 1012 1042 1112
Carluke 0952 1022 1052 1122
Wishaw 0958 1028 1058 1128
Holytown 1033 1133
Shieldmuir 1002 1102
Motherwell arr 1005 1039 1105 1139
dep1006 1040 1106 1140
Glasgow C 1034 1114 1134 1214
Milngavie arr 1100 1200
Dalmuir 1139 1239
Balloch arr 1200 1300

Return leg
Balloch dep 1109 1139
Dalmuir 1131 1201
Milngavie dep 1111 1141
Glasgow C 1134 1154 1204 1224
Motherwell arr 1203 1227 1233 1257
dep 1233 1258
Shieldmuir 1237
Holytown 1303
Wishaw 1240 1310
Carluke 1247 1317
Lanark arr 1259 1329

 

[rail-britain]

Considering they are reopening the Airdrie to Bathgate route don't you think it should encourage Scotrail to introduce Sunday trains all year round at Holytown

Submit your suggestion to Transport Scotland, see what they say!
You will be sent from pillar to post, then back to Transport Scotland...
By that time the next timetable (May 2011) will be in place

 

[Bittern]

the form of Argyll Line services from

It's called the Argyle Line.

 

[Damien1986]

Ok! No problem!

 

[68000]

Why has ScotRail allowed the 2 x 334 sets sit at Bathgate whilst denying hundreds of passengers seats / getting onto their train this week?

 

[me123]

I have absolutely no idea. I understand that the tests need to be done, and it's difficult to get the trains back to Glasgow as the OHLE isn't working ATM, but the trains are doing absolutely nothing at Bathgate. And the services that have been cut are busy (of course; Scotrail aren't able to use six carriages unless they absolutely need to). It's really disappointing that they've not been able to do anything about it.

The good news is that it should only be a few weeks before there's enough trains to get these back to 6 carriages (provided the 380s enter service on time).

 

[68000]

ScotRail could have hired a loco to get the units back on Monday evening thus using them for passenger service during the rest of this week. Afterall those passengers have paid good money to use their service!

 

[me123]

Indeed, and this is an avoidable case of overcrowding (other than the understandable, albeit rare, cases when de-strengthening services is necessary due to a train failure). If I was a season ticket holder and routinely physically could not get on my train, I would be undoubtedly be screaming at someone.

But I suppose someone in Scotrail wants to have the units there so that training can restart as soon as the problems have been resolved. Perhaps they've had a good, early estimate for the OHLE going back on and don't want to spend all that money to move the units for the sake of one or two days.

 

[MadCommuter]

Speaking as a season ticket, does anyone know which services have been reduced in length?

 

[me123]

I worked out, based on information on Scot-rail.co.uk, that the following rush hour services would be reduced in length (plus there are also some off-peak services affected, but that's unlikely to make any difference). Both of these have been confirmed anecdotally be members on Scot-rail.co.uk, and from what I hear it is not a pretty sight!

07:37 2L07 Larkhall-Dalmuir (GW085)
07:39 2F17 Coatbridge Central-Milngavie (GW082)
16:42 2L26 Milngavie-Larkhall (GW085)
17:34 1B08 Anderston-Lanark (GW082)

This accounts for the two units currently sitting in Bathgate LMD doing... well, nothing. I would suggest to avoid 2F17 and 2L26 for the time being; I don't know enough about the others.

There's also another unit going for training between Airdrie and Bathgate, but that's still in regular service. Apparently, it's diagram GW131 that will be removed. However, I don't have up to date diagrams for that. My best guess is that the following services will be de-strengthened once testing resumes between Airdrie and Bathgate, however I can't guarantee that this will be the case.

07:47 2G10 Gourock-Glasgow Central (a08:30)
16:18 2T05 Glasgow Central-Largs

I have no experience of either train, and I couldn't tell you what effect this will have. That said, IU doubt 2G10 will be an enjoyable journey if indeed it is de-strengthened.

AIUI, one there's enough 380s in service (which should only be a few weeks from what I understand; rail-britain will probably be able to give a better estimate), then this will release enough 334s from the Ayrshire/Inverclyde route to re-strengthen these services.

PS, I've never spoken to a season ticket before. I'm quite surprised at just how well a sheet of paper is able to type

 

[Bittern]

07:37 2L07 Larkhall-Dalmuir (GW085)
16:42 2L26 Milngavie-Larkhall (GW085)(

Oooh these can't be pretty situations! I've travelled on both and they get pretty packed pretty quickly.

 

[rail-britain]

Why has ScotRail allowed the 2 x 334 sets sit at Bathgate whilst denying hundreds of passengers seats / getting onto their train this week?

They shouldn't be "sitting" all the time
They should be running Bathgate - Edinburgh driver training
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

one there's enough 380s in service (which should only be a few weeks from what I understand; rail-britain will probably be able to give a better estimate), then this will release enough 334s from the Ayrshire/Inverclyde route to re-strengthen these services

I can't offer an update until the second week of November, that is basically the next milepost that is due

I have noted that although several "additional" Glasgow - Carlisle test runs were arranged, GBRf have so far been unable to provide drivers as all the previous testing was cancelled so they redeployed their drivers
However, next weeks tests should go ahead, furthermore GBRf should be providing the full complement of drivers such that two day and three night workings could be operated on weekdays