Air quality in predominantly diesel stations

[superkev]

Found an interesting stat from the recent friends of the earth pollution survey press release 23rd Feb (https://friendsoftheearth.uk) that Platform 3A/2B, Sheffield – 77 was ranked 8th most polluted place outside London.

A data audit* by Friends of the Earth has revealed the 1,758 sites across the England, Wales and Northern Ireland that have breached the annual Air Quality Objective for Nitrogen Dioxide (NO2) levels, which is set to protect health.

UK locations (outside of London) ranked by annual average level of NO2 (in ug/m3):

1. Neville Street (NW Tunnel entrance), Leeds – 99
2. Fir Tree Close, Hickleton, Doncaster – 96
3. John O’Gaunts, Hickleton, Doncaster – 87
4. Hennef Way, Banbury – 84.8
5. Upper Stone Street, Maidstone – 79.3
6. Market Hill, Maldon – 78.97
7. North Street Clock Tower, Brighton – 77.9
8. Platform 3A/2B, Sheffield – 77
9. Neville Street (NE Tunnel entrance), Leeds – 76
10. Holyhead Road, Coventry – 75.6

I wonder how places like Man Vic, Birmingham and Leeds etc would fair.
So much for Graylings anti electrification stance.
K

 

[londonmidland]

Birmingham New Street is sure to be a contender with it not uncommon to have up to four Voyagers vacating the platforms simultaneously with their engines chugging out fumes.

For quite some time too, depending on ECS workings/timings/paths. Most noticeably on a (Saturday) night.

 

[johnnychips]

I can’t find the list from the link to the Friends of the Earth website. While diesel pollution is undoubtedly a problem, F o E are offering ‘test it yourself ‘ kits. This may explain why a small village near Doncaster in open countryside on the A635 (not an especially busy A road) gets second and third places. I suspect the methodology is dodgy - this is not a proper scientific experiment.

 

[Spartacus]

I can’t find the list from the link to the Friends of the Earth website. While diesel pollution is undoubtedly a problem, F o E are offering ‘test it yourself ‘ kits. This may explain why a small village near Doncaster in open countryside on the A635 (not an especially busy A road) gets second and third places. I suspect the methodology is dodgy - this is not a proper scientific experiment.

I think that's spot on, same goes for the disparity between NW and NE Neville Street, it's the same tunnel, not even different ends. I suspect on a day when the wind was blowing in the opposite direction the results would be reversed, and if it was blowing north to south it wouldn't even appear on there. I also suspect that if Market Hill, Maldon was really in the top 10 that all those lovely painted houses would all be the same dirty grey/brown colour that everything is next to a major road.

 

[modernrail]

I think that's spot on, same goes for the disparity between NW and NE Neville Street, it's the same tunnel, not even different ends. I suspect on a day when the wind was blowing in the opposite direction the results would be reversed, and if it was blowing north to south it wouldn't even appear on there. I also suspect that if Market Hill, Maldon was really in the top 10 that all those lovely painted houses would all be the same dirty grey/brown colour that everything is next to a major road.

That's all fine but are we saying we think the air quality is within acceptable limits in stations with lots of diesels? Just as TfL have tested the tube and the results are predictably grim it would be good to see a scientific test undertaken for high risk stations. Clearly the source material is different on the tube but I would be amazed if stations such as New Street don't have a problem. I don't understand why this is not required from a employee H&S perspective if nothing else.

 

[Spartacus]

That's all fine but are we saying we think the air quality is within acceptable limits in stations with lots of diesels? Just as TfL have tested the tube and the results are predictably grim it would be good to see a scientific test undertaken for high risk stations. Clearly the source material is different on the tube but I would be amazed if stations such as New Street don't have a problem. I don't understand why this is not required from a employee H&S perspective if nothing else.

Oh, I wouldn't be surprised if some have problems, but I wouldn't expect Sheffield to be one of them given that it's open. Trouble if you can't believe any of this article as there's so much that can be shown to be false, whoever took the readings on some must have been next to an exhaust!

 

[InTheEastMids]

Oh, I wouldn't be surprised if some have problems, but I wouldn't expect Sheffield to be one of them given that it's open. Trouble if you can't believe any of this article as there's so much that can be shown to be false, whoever took the readings on some must have been next to an exhaust!

The weather will be a significant factor. From personal experience,, Leicester is pretty grim in still conditions

 

[ArchieWoodbine]

It would be interesting to know what the staff at say, Birmingham New St., make of this or to what extent they're aware of the legal limits. I wonder if their rostering takes this into account? I.e. one can't work on the platforms for more than an hour without a swap to the ticket barriers or concorse.

It seems to me like TOCs/NR are opening themselves up to a bit of legal risk here, if they're putting staff into environments known to cause long-term health problems.

 

[DarloRich]

this again..............

 

[hwl]

The weather will be a significant factor. From personal experience, Leicester is pretty grim in still conditions

Yep, 50mph winds like there were 2 weeks ago pretty much remove local air quality issues. (dispersal / dilution / homogenisation)

A still day like yesterday will be pretty bad as the majority of NOx and PMs down't really spread over much more than cricket pitch infield in still (or even low wind) conditions.

Virtually all the rail air quality issues will be from diesel trains doing less than 10mph and mostly less than 5mph was there is far less dispersal / dilution / homogenisation.

 

[hwl]

this again..............

It be coming up again lots in the next 2 years...

 

[superkev]

Yes again but I started thread due to new Friends of earth list and Sheffield 3a and 3b does not strike me as a pollution hot spot.
K

 

[hwl]

That's all fine but are we saying we think the air quality is within acceptable limits in stations with lots of diesels?

Definitely not within limits but the urban background is high to begin with.

Just as TfL have tested the tube and the results are predictably grim it would be good to see a scientific test undertaken for high risk stations. Clearly the source material is different on the tube but I would be amazed if stations such as New Street don't have a problem. I don't understand why this is not required from a employee H&S perspective if nothing else.

The TfL test produced lost of surprising (head scratching) results. e.g. The Victoria line was by far the worst but it shouldn't have been given it has the best use of regenerative braking. It does have the worst tunnel ventilation overall though. There is a suspicion that the choice of monitoring sights might have big impacts on the deep tube e.g. disturbance of settle particles by recent engineering works. The Bakerloo was surprisingly good given the high brakepad wear and tighter corners.
Given the size and mass/density of the tube PMs (much heavier), it looks like there may be a correlation with tunnel depth and hence ventilation shaft depth as they don't want to stay in the the air long enough to get sucked out but settle first and get kicked up into the air by passing trains.

Everyone knows New Street is a problem and lots of thinking is going on behind the scenes for a while (affects future franchise rolling stock plans)

 

[hwl]

Yes again but I started thread due to new Friends of earth list and Sheffield 3a and 3b does not strike me as a pollution hot spot.
K

Most air quality stuff isn't worth the paper it is printed on as mostly there isn't the money spent to do good testing and analysis.

 

[gordonthemoron]

surely Sunderland must be bad as it's underground and not very big? Aren't Maidstone and Brighton largely electric?

 

[RWill35396]

I wonder what the data would be for Manchester Victoria? Crossing the bridge to get to platforms 4, 5 and 6, one always seems to get a really good dose of noxious fumes, most unpleasant if you ask me...

 

[Darandio]

surely Sunderland must be bad as it's underground and not very big? Aren't Maidstone and Brighton largely electric?

It's not bad at all really. There are extractor fans, the diesel service isn't that frequent and 80% of services using the station are electric.

 

[Ken H]

I was on temple meads station in the 80's There was a grotty old diesel loco in the shed chucking out clag. made me really chesty.

modern trains are lots better than the ones 30 years ago.
but train staff could help by stopping engines between runs. Stop in platform, turn off engine, leave train.

Brum New St used to have extractor fans above the tracks to remove pollutants. Is that kit still there?

And dont get me started on bus drivers who seem to be unable to stop their engines between runs.

 

[londonmidland]

Brum New St used to have extractor fans above the tracks to remove pollutants. Is that kit still there

Yes. Birmingham New Street has those big black extractor fans above the tracks on every platform. Though they don’t tend to come on until after you can smell and physically see the fumes in the air.

When they are on, you can certainly tell that they’re at full power as they are pretty loud.

 

[Parallel]

I imagine Cardiff Queen Street is pretty bad. There’s a train about every 5 minutes and it’s next to a busy road. It’s not enclosed though like Birmingham New St.

 

[Ken H]

I imagine Cardiff Queen Street is pretty bad. There’s a train about every 5 minutes and it’s next to a busy road. It’s not enclosed though like Birmingham New St.

there again, imagine the Metropolitan Railway between Paddington and Liverpool street in the days of steam!

 

[Dr Hoo]

I wonder what the data would be for Manchester Victoria? Crossing the bridge to get to platforms 4, 5 and 6, one always seems to get a really good dose of noxious fumes, most unpleasant if you ask me...

I happened to be on the bridge today when a new Transpennine Mark 5 set with a Class 68 was waiting to move off on a test run. With the loco at the eastern end it was idling just next to the greatest number of passengers and greatest degree of enclosure. Awful atmosphere. Hope this isn’t going to be a regular thing.

 

[unlevel42]

Yes again but I started thread due to new Friends of earth list and Sheffield 3a and 3b does not strike me as a pollution hot spot.
K

From this location there could easily be 6 trains within 50 feet
Platform 3 Two trains
Platform 4 Two trains
2a HST etc
5a HST etc
All idling after terminating and waiting for next turn.
Add Platforms1,6 and 8.
Add four lane road/
Bus station
Sheffields busiest roundabout
The waste incinerator for the city
All in the lowest point in the city centre.

 

[superkev]

there again, imagine the Metropolitan Railway between Paddington and Liverpool street in the days of steam!

I don't think smoke that you can see is that harmful. It's the stuff you can't see that's the problem.
K

 

[DynamicSpirit]

From this location there could easily be 6 trains within 50 feet
Platform 3 Two trains
Platform 4 Two trains
2a HST etc
5a HST etc
All idling after terminating and waiting for next turn.
Add Platforms1,6 and 8.
Add four lane road/
Bus station
Sheffields busiest roundabout
The waste incinerator for the city
All in the lowest point in the city centre.

The other thing you have to remember with Sheffield is that it's a pretty congested city, almost completely surrounded by hills - some of them very high. I would guess that geography tends to trap the pollution in the centre of the city much more than for other places. So I suspect the problem with Sheffield is more with the city than with the station per se (although all the diesels around there certainly won't be helping).

 

[Wtloild]

Noticed at Newcastle that XC Voyagers often sit in the bay platform for 45mins belching out diesel fumes.
Quite unpleasant, but surely also quite inefficient.

 

[big all]

we need to know far far more information like
where they profesionally trained operators using calibrated equipment at standard distances
where the tests also over long enough periods and dotted around the same location to average out local and weather anomollies as said above

 

[modernrail]

I wonder what the data would be for Manchester Victoria? Crossing the bridge to get to platforms 4, 5 and 6, one always seems to get a really good dose of noxious fumes, most unpleasant if you ask me...

I don't have chest problems of any sort but the though platforms at Man Victoria make me feel sick within seconds.

 

[modernrail]

Definitely not within limits but the urban background is high to begin with.

The TfL test produced lost of surprising (head scratching) results. e.g. The Victoria line was by far the worst but it shouldn't have been given it has the best use of regenerative braking. It does have the worst tunnel ventilation overall though. There is a suspicion that the choice of monitoring sights might have big impacts on the deep tube e.g. disturbance of settle particles by recent engineering works. The Bakerloo was surprisingly good given the high brakepad wear and tighter corners.
Given the size and mass/density of the tube PMs (much heavier), it looks like there may be a correlation with tunnel depth and hence ventilation shaft depth as they don't want to stay in the the air long enough to get sucked out but settle first and get kicked up into the air by passing trains.

Everyone knows New Street is a problem and lots of thinking is going on behind the scenes for a while (affects future franchise rolling stock plans)

I also read somewhere that improved ventilation might also be a problem on the deeep level tube because it drags down PM from above ground which then gets trapped and circulated in the tunnels. It certainly does feel like the tube is a puzzle to be solved whereas the above ground stations with diesels are rather more simples. I would be surprised if background levels are having more of an effect that a load of let's face it legacy diesel engines on sprinters etc that are so far off current new engine regulations it is not funny.