AHB Level Crossing minimum times?

[matt]

Is there a standard for how long a AHB crossing should be lowered for before the train passes the crossing. At Tredington crossing north of Cheltenham it took approx 10 seconds for the barriers to lower and then only another 15 - 20 seconds before the train passed which seemed a bit short to me?

 

[driver9000]

I have 27 seconds from activation to train crossing in my head for some reason. It prevents holding road traffic up too much.

I work over an AHB that I can see the barriers fall on and I'm over it in around 30 seconds from seeing the barriers fall.

 

[scotsman]

I'm told a slightly different (but longer) time that Driver9000 has stated - however, I don't think this topic is a particularly good idea. Some idiot motorist might use the information on here...?

 

[driver9000]

The idiot motorists will jump the barrier regardless of the timescale being known. The fact that barriers will be down for potentially less than a minute (unless another train is coming) should really put it in their mind that they should wait.

 

[Tomnick]

27secs was the figure in my head too. It's published in various signalling books, and no doubt in design standards, so I'm not sure there's an issue with discussing it.

 

[Old Timer]

Minimum warning time from strike-in to train arriving = 27 seconds.

The sequence timings are as follows :-

Strike-in - Pedestrian warning starts / Amber light steady for 3 seconds

After 3 seconds - Red lights start to flash

After 4 to 6 seconds after red lights start flashing - Barriers start to fall

Barriers to take a further 6 - 10 seconds to fully lower. Note boom lights start flashing after 83 degrees angle has been reached.

The time for the train to reach the crossing is a variable.

 

[scotsman]

The idiot motorists will jump the barrier regardless of the timescale being known. The fact that barriers will be down for potentially less than a minute (unless another train is coming) should really put it in their mind that they should wait.

True, a taxi firm based near an AOCL on my heritage railway still ignore the lights, despite a colleague's taxi being struck by a train...

 

[MidnightFlyer]

The one at Swineshead station was only down about 10 seconds before an HST passed over it (it was one of the special Derby-Nottingham-Skegness summer workings).

 

[Old Timer]

The one at Swineshead station was only down about 10 seconds before an HST passed over it (it was one of the special Derby-Nottingham-Skegness summer workings).

On the quoted minimum timing (3 + 4 + 10) that would be correct.

 

[strange6]

True, a taxi firm based near an AOCL on my heritage railway still ignore the lights, despite a colleague's taxi being struck by a train...

You should report them to the police

 

[GB]

Unless things have changed recently the minimum time the barriers should be lowered before a train arrives is 8 seconds, not 10.

 

[matt]

Thanks for the replies chaps.

 

[Old Timer]

Unless things have changed recently the minimum time the barriers should be lowered before a train arrives is 8 seconds, not 10.

NR/L3/SIG30018 clause 4.7.4 requires no train to arrive less than 27 seconds after the sequence has initiated.

 

[scotsman]

You should report them to the police

Do you think we don't?!

It is the bane of the entire railway, it's written into the rule book that traincrew must report all near misses (basically anyone who jumps the lights) ASAP, so that the Police can be contacted. We've got 3 CCTV camera pointed at the crossing, which is admissible evidence in Court and Guards have to assist the footplate crew by leaning out of a left hand window to confirm the crossing is operating correctly by observing the white light.

Report them to the Police, we have.

 

[Old Timer]

Do you think we don't?!

It is the bane of the entire railway, it's written into the rule book that traincrew must report all near misses (basically anyone who jumps the lights) ASAP, so that the Police can be contacted. We've got 3 CCTV camera pointed at the crossing, which is admissible evidence in Court and Guards have to assist the footplate crew by leaning out of a left hand window to confirm the crossing is operating correctly by observing the white light.

Report them to the Police, we have.

I thought the Police were required by Law to respond to a complaint laid before them, especially when there is actual evidence and witnesses ?

At what level has this been raised ?

As an organisation YOU now have a much higher Duty of Care required of you now that you KNOW there is misuse of that level crossing. Your Professional Head of Operations should be aware of that and should be dealing with it ?

I suggest a suitably worded letter to the Chief Constable, and copy to the relevant ORR Inspector covering your line concerning the failure of the Police to act would be appropriate. I would certainly include a comment to the effect that you will take action for damages against the Police for losses arising from their failure to act on information relating to the regular and blatant misuse of the crossing.

Why not engage the reptiles from the local media on a slow news day to write something. A couple of free tickets and a footplate ride for the Editor's kids will gain you the front page I have no doubt.

 

[SWT_USER]

I wish it was 27 seconds on the Hounslow loop level crossings, they are down for ages!

 

[bluenoxid]

Are you also recording these incidents in a formal and standard manner? Are your CCTV cameras legit and are the reg plates legible?

 

[scotsman]

I thought the Police were required by Law to respond to a complaint laid before them, especially when there is actual evidence and witnesses ?

At what level has this been raised ?

As an organisation YOU now have a much higher Duty of Care required of you now that you KNOW there is misuse of that level crossing. Your Professional Head of Operations should be aware of that and should be dealing with it ?

I suggest a suitably worded letter to the Chief Constable, and copy to the relevant ORR Inspector covering your line concerning the failure of the Police to act would be appropriate. I would certainly include a comment to the effect that you will take action for damages against the Police for losses arising from their failure to act on information relating to the regular and blatant misuse of the crossing.

Why not engage the reptiles from the local media on a slow news day to write something. A couple of free tickets and a footplate ride for the Editor's kids will gain you the front page I have no doubt.

Sorry, there's been some misunderstanding.

Let me clarify before someone high up from the management of the railway in question recognises me:

When someone jumps the lights, the Driver informs the Responsible Officer (RO). The RO, I believe, gives them a form for them to put a statement on to sign.

This is faxed to the Polis ASAP.

The Police then access the CCTV hard drive, find the relevant images and issue a £60 penalty and 3 points to the owner of the vehicle.

The local bobbies are excellent in doing this.

As far as I am aware, there is no legal bearing on me (I'm a ticket inspector) - I have been advised by the Guards Inspector (who is starting to train me to become a Guard) that, in the event of an incident, should the Police wish to speak to me under caution then I should seek advice before continuing.

As someone who just did a week's work experience in a local paper (not for that area), a simple press release would get in the paper - a press release attacking the local council (who maintain the crossing, since the railway was there before the road) would likely get the front page. Bibery doesn't work, something that sells papers will.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Are you also recording these incidents in a formal and standard manner? Are your CCTV cameras legit and are the reg plates legible?

From the number of fines issued, I should hope so!

 

[Old Timer]

True, a taxi firm based near an AOCL on my heritage railway still ignore the lights, despite a colleague's taxi being struck by a train...

The Police then access the CCTV hard drive, find the relevant images and issue a £60 penalty and 3 points to the owner of the vehicle.

Now I am confused. Either there is a problem or there isn't ?

The taxi firm incidentally can have its Licence revoked, the Drivers certainly can for that.

 

[scotsman]

Now I am confused. Either there is a problem or there isn't ?

The taxi firm incidentally can have its Licence revoked, the Drivers certainly can for that.

There is a problem with occasional 'jumpers' - the problem is being adequately dealt with.

 

[GB]

NR/L3/SIG30018 clause 4.7.4 requires no train to arrive less than 27 seconds after the sequence has initiated.

3 seconds Amber lights
4-6 seconds from the start of flashing red lights to start of lower sequence
6-10 seconds to reach the fully lowered position.
8 seconds minimum lowered time before train arrives.

3+6+10+8 = 27 seconds

 

[Old Timer]

3 seconds Amber lights
4-6 seconds from the start of flashing red lights to start of lower sequence
6-10 seconds to reach the fully lowered position.
8 seconds minimum lowered time before train arrives.

3+6+10+8 = 27 seconds

It has been the convention for many, many years for the calculation to be taken as I have written it - that is from the start of the red light flashing.

The RED road light is the critical element in the operation of the crossing

 

[GB]

Convention for many years or not, it is incorrect. The timing starts from when the amber light activates and that is where the figure of 27 seconds id derived from. Not taking account of the amber lights and raising the minium barrier lowered time from 8 to 10 seconds (as per your post) brings the whole sequence time down to 26 seconds which is not to rail industry standards.

 

[strange6]

Do you think we don't?!

It is the bane of the entire railway, it's written into the rule book that traincrew must report all near misses (basically anyone who jumps the lights) ASAP, so that the Police can be contacted. We've got 3 CCTV camera pointed at the crossing, which is admissible evidence in Court and Guards have to assist the footplate crew by leaning out of a left hand window to confirm the crossing is operating correctly by observing the white light.

Report them to the Police, we have.

I thought you would have

 

[O L Leigh]

I wish it was 27 seconds on the Hounslow loop level crossings, they are down for ages!

Are they AHBs on the Hounslow loop? Do trains travel at the full linespeed or are they still accelerating or braking due to station stops?

I have no way of knowing, but I would imagine that a line so close to London would have full barriers operated remotely from the signalling centre under CCTV supervision. These are controlled crossings and not automatic ones, therefore they have to be closed and "proved" before the signals on approach clear for any train movement. Therefore this type of crossing will commence it's sequence a lot longer than 27 seconds before the next train crosses.

O L Leigh

 

[150222]

wasn't there an accident on the wcml in the late 1960's because of barriers going down to late?

 

[ainsworth74]

Are you perhaps thinking of Hixon where a transporter carrying a large transformer failed to get across a newly installed automatic barrier before an express passenger train collided with it?

 

[Old Timer]

Convention for many years or not, it is incorrect. The timing starts from when the amber light activates and that is where the figure of 27 seconds id derived from. Not taking account of the amber lights and raising the minium barrier lowered time from 8 to 10 seconds (as per your post) brings the whole sequence time down to 26 seconds which is not to rail industry standards.

I have never suggested the sequence timing started at the commencement of the Red, only you have done so, but reading my reply to you I can see why.

Let me set it out again.

0 secs - Strike in = Strike-in plus 0
0 to 3 secs - Yellow light illuminated = Strike-in plus 3 0+3
At 4 secs - Red lights commence flashing
At 7 secs - Barriers commence lowering = Strike-In plus 7 (3+4)
7 to 17 secs - Barriers lowering = 10 sec
At 17 secs - Barriers lowered = Strike-in plus 17 (3+4+10)
17 to 27 secs - Minimum train approach time = Strike-In plus 27 (3+4+10)

Thus the key times are 3 secs for amber light + 4 secs for red flashing lights + 10 seconds for barriers to complete lowering= 3+4+10 which equates to 17 seconds for the crossing cycle. These times derive from Network Rail documents.

Using these documents to calculate the shortest cycle times arrives at 13 secs, taking the longest arrives at 19 secs.

The crossing check records (a) the time the crossing displays a steady amber, (b) the time from the red being displayed to the barriers full lowered, (c) the time from the barriers fully lowered to the train arriving. (a) to (c) can never be less than 27 seconds.

There is a 2 second delay built in to the transition from steady amber to the flashing red starting. In practice this is instantaneous.

 

[150222]

Are you perhaps thinking of Hixon where a transporter carrying a large transformer failed to get across a newly installed automatic barrier before an express passenger train collided with it?

I am.

 

[strange6]

is there a fail safe mechanism built into AHB crossings if barriers don't come down and/or lights don't illuminate? Would the protecting railway signal go to red or something?