After Northern Rail

[sprinterguy]

Rumours seem to abound throughout the transport industry that an individuals' employer is in imminent danger of being taken over by First Group. When I was with National Express West Midlands many staff were absolutely adamant that a takeover by First was just around the corner, to the extent that some particularly eager staff had taken to doodling "F" logos on any company notices around the depot. And that was two years ago now.

As others have said, there is no possible way that any employee of Northern could know who is going to run the next Northern rail franchise, as the franchising process involves inviting bids from all interested parties, and that invitation to tender hasn't even begun to start rolling yet.

It will not be good news if First were to become the holders of the next Northern franchise; not in comparison to the current incumbents. I'm intrigued to see whether the safe pair of hands they have demonstrated throughout the current "no growth" franchise would be up to the task of handling a more entrepreneurial "growth" franchise next time round.

 

[Steven1054]

Ok i was only saying what i was told, i thought he was right by the fact that he works for northern also because i've known him for months and i didn't he was lying. Anyway first spend more money on there trains so we should be hoping that it is First that do take over.

 

[sprinterguy]

Anyway first spend more money on there trains so we should be hoping that it is First that do take over.

Any new trains that are ordered as part of a franchise are largely dependant on the terms laid down in the franchise contract by the DfT, though of course the bidders for any given franchise can specify a goal of procuring new trains during the bidding process if the franchise specification allows it.

Because of this it is difficult to objectively judge whether one operator is better than another or not in terms of train orders.

 

[Steven1054]

Well lets look at the Facts:
A.Every time i go to Leeds Station, Northern units are always filthy.
B.Every time i go to Leeds Station First units are always immaculate.
Also First units have better CCTV and a catering service.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Well lets look at the Facts:
A.Every time i go to Leeds Station, Northern units are always filthy.
B.Every time i go to Leeds Station First units are always immaculate.
Also First units have better CCTV and a catering service.

I'm sorry, what utter rubbish.

 

[Steven1054]

Well First units in my area have a refreshments trolley and northern units are always filthy in my area.

 

[Ivo]

Last I checked, didn't TPE services have catering because of their status as (sub?) IC services, against Northern's local commuter operations?

Also, 185s are newer. And not by a couple of weeks either.

(What Matt said, put kindly.)

 

[Eagle]

Also First units have better CCTV and a catering service.

That's because First TPE is a long-distance service and Northern isn't... :roll:

 

[Steven1054]

Yes, but i never said that northern had/didn't have those because i was making separate points. I was saying that First trains are generally better than northern so we should be hopeful that First can take over.

 

[Darandio]

Why are you guys even replying to someone answering their own posts?

Multiple accounts are trolling of the highest order!

 

[Eagle]

Yes, but i never said that northern had/didn't have those because i was making separate points. I was saying that First trains are generally better than northern so we should be hopeful that First can take over.

And I was saying that First trains are completely not comparable to Northern trains because one is long-distance and one is short-distance. It's like comparing buses with coaches.

 

[ainsworth74]

That's because First TPE is a long-distance service and Northern isn't.

Though in fairness some of Northern's services are as long as TPEs. Leeds - Carlise and Sheffield - Scarborough for instance so there could be an argument for the introduction of trolleys on those services.

Don't mind me, I'm just desperately trying to salvage this thread.

 

[Eagle]

Anyway if First did take over the Northern franchise (which no one can possibly know until the DfT decides in 2013) they'd take over all its trains too, and keep using them on Northern's routes.

 

[Steven1054]

Well lets just say we hope an operator takes over who looks after there units.

 

[507 001]

Well lets look at the Facts:
A.Every time i go to Leeds Station, Northern units are always filthy.
B.Every time i go to Leeds Station First units are always immaculate.
Also First units have better CCTV and a catering service.

I'm sorry but your talking crap.

Your obviously too young to remember when first had the northwestern franchise? They ran the stock into the ground from day one, northern are making the best of a bad situation (and are doing a pretty good job of it too)
First units have always been particularly dirty inside, compare say the 185's to LM's 350's inside and you'll see what I mean. When they had 158's it was even worse.

Not even going to bother replying to the cctv/catering comment because you should realise just how stupid you sound. Most of northerns services are that overcrowded the guard can't even get through the train, let alone a trolley.

I never thought I would say it but I hope northern carry on with the franchise, At first I really didn't like them, it seemed to take an age for them to settle down and start turning the trains around (new liveries, refreshed interiors etc.) but now that they have they are doing an excellent job. New seats in the ex-merseyrail sponsored pacers wouldn't go amiss though.

 

[gnolife]

Well lets look at the Facts:
A.Every time i go to Leeds Station, Northern units are always filthy.
B.Every time i go to Leeds Station First units are always immaculate

Interesting definition of 'fact' you have there
All of the following post is derived from my opinon
I know that Northern's 323s to the Airport are much nicer to be on, more comfortable, more reliable, and in general a much nicer train to be on.
But what the current franchise is like is a poor indicator of what it would be like if Serco Abellio won it in 2013, as they might decide to run the trains into the ground as they should (in theory) be getting new trains.

I never had opportunity to travel by train during the FNW days, so I cant really comment on what that used to be like.

Finally, what on earth is this thread doing in Infrastructure?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Finally, what on earth is this thread doing in Infrastructure?

The same thought had occurred to me, as there is also a "Pacer and Sprinter Replacement" thread on this forum too...:roll:

 

[driver9000]

Northern is going to be taken over by first, he told me people who work for northern have been told.

Have they? I must have been asleep that day :roll:


Whoever ends up taking on the North of England franchise is still going to be running the same fleet Northern was running. Don't expect miracles - it will still be 14x and 15x units.

I remember FNW days and they weren't so great at keeping the trains clean and tidy either - some weren't even touched internally (RRNW 153s,156s and 158s spring immediately to mind). Northern do their best with the elderly and run down fleet they inherited - they might not look very pretty but they do their job without fuss day in day out, and they are worked hard too. I'd rather have Serco/Abellio running the service than First or Stagecoach (who incidentally run franchises that had growth and refurbished/new trains specified). Nobody knows what is happening yet, nothing has been announced and tendering hasn't even begun.

I think one of the things that held Northern back in the very early days was the franchise review it was put under almost from day 1 which from memory looked at how efficiently the franchise was being run and how much the rural services were costing - as I remember Northern came out with a very good report from some impressed bean counters.

 

[callum112233]

Won't Northern renew their franchise?
(sorry if I missed my answer in this post)

 

[Lampshade]

I hope Serco/Abellio don't regain the franchise and it's awarded to a company based on the west side, that way we might see our 158s back :roll:

 

[WatcherZero]

I wouldnt mind the current ownership continuing but they would have to improve the cleanliness of the trains, im sorry but 'The washing units out of order, it will be fixed soon' excuse has run dry after three years. They are like the boy that cried wolf.

 

[tbtc]

I hope Serco/Abellio don't regain the franchise and it's awarded to a company based on the west side, that way we might see our 158s back :roll:

Will you need them? Considering the Lancashire side is getting the electrification/ EMUs/ cascaded 150s from LM/ cascaded 142s from FGW...

At the same time, I don't think any additional units are coming to Yorkshire (and certainly no electrification)

 

[Schnellzug]

Who says they're going to pain everything red? The only operation in the UK that they've started to (at a somewhat slow pace) to paint red is DB Schenker (formerly EWS) and it makes sense there as it actually carries their name! Everywhere else has kept it's brand identity and livery (XC and Chiltern).

Anyway this could be interesting assuming there is any truth to the rumour. I doubt we'll see another WSMR here, but I wonder if Bradford might not get cut if DB feel that it will never make a profit.

I keep forgetting XC is actually owned by DB now. Mind you, i keep forgetting that it was owned by Arriva.
No, i didn't think it was still Virgin ...
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this may be a naive question, but why do people dislike First so much? i think, like I've said before, they haven't done an unreasonabel job at GW.
Sorry if this offends people's fondly held beliefs, but I can only say what i see, like they say on Catchphrase.
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Why are you guys even replying to someone answering their own posts?

Multiple accounts are trolling of the highest order!

Who are you insinuating at there?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I wouldn't mind the current ownership continuing but they would have to improve the cleanliness of the trains. I'm sorry but 'The washing units out of order, it will be fixed soon' excuse has run dry after three years. They are like the boy that cried wolf.

You have made a very good point with regard to the internal facilities and general well-being of units in their remit, but this may well be as a result of the franchise period coming to its end soon, but a determined effort to improve matters will be of help to them to further their case, should they wish to continue with this franchise. However, I think that Northern Rail have had to deal with the cards as dealt to them by the "no growth" proviso that was "carved in stone" in the current franchise when it was placed with them.

 

[JamesHorrell]

When I first posted it I thought I was In the general discussion bit but I was in this section of the forum so I'm sorry

 

[WatcherZero]

I dont believe fixing the washing plant so it isnt out of commission for months on end every winter with 5 years to go on the franchise comes under no growth investment recouping really. Its a fundamental responsibility for cleanliness and standards of presentation on a daily basis, its also not a particularly expensive piece of equipment. They just need to insulate the pipes a bit and possibly add a heating unit.

 

[northwichcat]

I never had opportunity to travel by train during the FNW days, so I cant really comment on what that used to be like.

In FNW days:
* Faster timetabled journeys due to less recovery time being in timetables but consequently more late trains.
* More industrial action disrupting services.
* Superior refurbishments.
* New trains (175s) introduced to replace slam door stock.
* Overall superior stock to now in the former FNW area. Partly due to Northern insisting 158s are for Yorkshire services only and because Pacers weren't as life expired and overcrowded as they are now.
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At the same time, I don't think any additional units are coming to Yorkshire (and certainly no electrification)

Network Rail have submitted plans for North TPE (bar York-Scarborough) to be electrified by the end of 2019. If the government approves funding some local services in Yorkshire, in particular Huddersfield-Leeds stoppers, will switch to EMUs. This is now part of the preferred Pacer replacement program.

Judging from some of your previous posts you'd be more than happy to see Sheffield-East Yorkshire services broken up to utilise EMUs between Doncaster and Hull.

 

[tbtc]

Network Rail have submitted plans for North TPE (bar York-Scarborough) to be electrified by the end of 2019. If the government approves funding some local services in Yorkshire, in particular Huddersfield-Leeds stoppers, will switch to EMUs. This is now part of the preferred Pacer replacement program.

Judging from some of your previous posts you'd be more than happy to see Sheffield-East Yorkshire services broken up to utilise EMUs between Doncaster and Hull.

Yes, there are "plans" to wire the TPE line through Leeds - my comment was about the fact that Lancashire won't need any 158s "back" (since its definitely getting more electrification/ additional units in the cascades). Really, the "Lancashire" 158s are now in Scotland anyway, and not in Yorkshire.

The Sheffield - Hull/ Scarborough service runs via Goole, which I doubt would be electrified? There are enough question marks over the swing bridge at Selby (meaning that Leeds - Selby - Hull may not be wired?)...

But, yeah, I've said before that electrification (of part of a route) means direct services will be cut, whether these are routes like London - Holyhead or something closer to home (e.g. if the Warrington Central line were wired up then maybe Sheffield would have to lose its direct Liverpool service, with EMUs running Manchester - Liverpool).

 

[150222]

Though in fairness some of Northern's services are as long as TPEs. Leeds - Carlise and Sheffield - Scarborough for instance so there could be an argument for the introduction of trolleys on those services.

Don't mind me, I'm just desperately trying to salvage this thread.

However the leeds to carlisle service does have a trolley.

 

[ainsworth74]

However the leeds to carlisle service does have a trolley.

Not provided by Northern and not on every service (and is it even provided outside of summer?).