Advice re Excess or PF

[talldave]

I was trying to use a "Not Underground" Off-Peak Day Return (£10.50) Gatwick to Blackfriars last Wednesday catching the 09.32 from Gatwick.

The 09.32 was cancelled, so thinking quickly on my feet on how I could get into London for my meeting on time, I jumped on the 09:23 Southern service to Victoria, in the hope that I could either find something else from East Croydon or pay any necessary excess to get me to Victoria.

I couldn't find any services listed online from East Croydon (other than my cancelled FCC service) that would get me to my meeting on time. But I was quite happy to pay again to get to Blackfriars on the tube from Victoria and pay whatever excess I owed for going into Victoria instead of London Bridge (my priority was to get to my meeting whatever the cost!).

When I got to Victoria, I approach the staff member on the gateline and explained that because my train was cancelled I'd come to Victoria and was happy to pay whatever excess or penalty fare was due in order to continue my journey by using my Oyster PAYG on the Underground. He told me that I should pay a penalty fare but he would let me through without doing so.

So I'm pleased to report there are staff who use their discretion, but since this situation could happen again, I wondered what the correct action should have been - penalty fare, excess or something else?

Of course, since I was using a "TN" Off Peak ticket, it wasn't actually valid before 09.32,; as I got on the 09.23 I was in the wrong for being "On Peak" (whereas a Southern "C0" ticket would have been valid). So would this have been penalty fare time?

But if this had happened later on the morning, would it have been possible to get an excess from my FCC £10.50 ticket for arriving at Victoria?

(Thanks to the speedy discretion of the staff member I spoke to, I got on the Underground and did get to Blackfriars in time for my meeting.)

 

[Urban Gateline]

In terms of excesses, I think you would have had to buy it at your first opportunity (Ticket Office at Gatwick).

If it counts as deviating from/going off-route then a Penalty fare shouldn't be due, not sure if it's overdistance either. One of the more experienced members of the forum will confirm I'm sure!

On another note, you used an Off-Peak ticket on the 09:23 to Victoria, that probably wasn't permitted either!

 

[maniacmartin]

This is a can of worms.

Change of Route Excesses and Change of Ticket Type Excesses both have no penalty for not buying before you board the train. Note that if you do a change of route excess, the peak time restrictions of the new ticket would apply.

This is of course assuming that you deem NOT UNDERGROUND to be a route restriction (as I do).

If you deem it to be a TOC restriction, then you wouldn't be able excess away such a restriction, so a new ticket would have to be purchased, before boarding the train, and if you failed to do so, a PF or prosecution could be the result.

However, it's more complex still, as some forum posters' opinion is you can take any valid route to LONDON GROUP (not on the tube) and then make your way on your own steam. There have been a few long posts on this. If that is the case, then no excess or PF is due.

 

[Urban Gateline]

This is a can of worms.

Change of Route Excesses and Change of Ticket Type Excesses both have no penalty for not buying before you board the train. Note that if you do a change of route excess, the peak time restrictions of the new ticket would apply.

This is of course assuming that you deem NOT UNDERGROUND to be a route restriction (as I do).

If you deem it to be a TOC restriction, then you wouldn't be able excess away such a restriction, so a new ticket would have to be purchased, before boarding the train, and if you failed to do so, a PF or prosecution could be the result.

However, it's more complex still, as some forum posters' opinion is you can take any valid route to LONDON GROUP (not on the tube) and then make your way on your own steam. There have been a few long posts on this. If that is the case, then no excess or PF is due.

Indeed, and if it's this complicated for the staff then think of the poor passengers!

IMO it's definitely not a TOC restriction, if it was routed "FCC Only" that would be another case entirely!

The lack of requirement to buy before boarding if facilities exist for a change of route excess seems silly, it's an open-door for people to take more expensive routes and rely on not being checked by the guard (or even finding one who can be bothered/know how to do the excess!)

 

[yorkie]

I believe your ticket was valid (as long as you dont use LU.

If its deemed that you should only be using an Any Permitted ticket, a change of route excess is half the difference to the appropriate fare and there is no penalty for not buying the excess before boarding.

Southern have incorrectly issued penalty fares on these circumstances. Any more cases should be both challenged and reported as a franchise breach.

 

[Hadders]

The lack of requirement to buy before boarding if facilities exist for a change of route excess seems silly, it's an open-door for people to take more expensive routes and rely on not being checked by the guard (or even finding one who can be bothered/know how to do the excess!)

But change of route excesses are notoriously difficult to obtain from many booking offices, and cannot be obtained from a TVM or on-line. Making it a requirement to purchase before boarding would risk criminilising a passenger who's genuinely been unable to obtain an excess.

 

[Urban Gateline]

But change of route excesses are notoriously difficult to obtain from many booking offices, and cannot be obtained from a TVM or on-line. Making it a requirement to purchase before boarding would risk criminilising a passenger who's genuinely been unable to obtain an excess.

I take your point about TVM and online facilities not being able to do excess fares, however all Ticket Offices really should. This should be enough as an opportunity, Guards have even less time and training to issue them!

 

[bb21]

Guards have even less time and training to issue them!

In my experience, guards are far better trained in issuing excesses.

They may not always have time to do it, granted.

 

[ASharpe]

I have never had a problem getting an over-distance excess from a guard (when I can find one) - and they never seem to mind.

This morning at Guildford the ticket office clerk had no idea what I was on about, at Kings Cross the clerk wanted to check a few things with colleagues first, and then when he got the price up he went off to double check.

Many clerks seem to think the few pence I give them is a wast of their time, but when it saves me several pounds I think its worth my time.

 

[yorkie]

I take your point about TVM and online facilities not being able to do excess fares, however all Ticket Offices really should. This should be enough as an opportunity, Guards have even less time and training to issue them!

That's not my experience! Guards seem to be generally very well trained and can issue excess fares in seconds.

I find it rare that a ticket office can issue an excess fare at all, let alone correctly and efficiently!

See excess fares mystery shopping thread.

The rail industry policy of not penalising passengers for on-board change of route excess fares is very sensible.

 

[talldave]

My decision on the day to hop on the Victoria train was motivated by the fact that if I'd gone back to the Gatwick ticket office, I'd have wasted more than the 15 minutes before the next FCC train queuing to buy an excess. So I was hoping that a guard would be able to resolve my predicament. However, since the 09:23 is a sardines-only service, it doesn't seem practical for the guard to get down the train for a ticket check.

I would add that had I had an FCC-only ticket I wouldn't have boarded the Southern service.

Hence I approached the gateline staff member at Victoria who, although he only referred to a Penalty Fare, reacted positively with discretion to my calm offer to pay whatever was necessary in order to get back on course to my meeting.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I take your point about TVM and online facilities not being able to do excess fares, however all Ticket Offices really should. This should be enough as an opportunity, Guards have even less time and training to issue them!

I fear for the railway if guards have less training on excess fares than ticket office staff. I had half a day on them when I trained back in the late 90s, I don't think they get anywhere near that now.

....I find it rare that a ticket office can issue an excess fare at all, let alone correctly and efficiently!

See excess fares mystery shopping thread....

I think there are more of us that can than you realise (6 stations out of, well, quite a few, isn't much of a survey).

The rail industry policy of not penalising passengers for on-board change of route excess fares is very sensible.

It is, because it is very easy for passengers to go off route without realising.

 

[island]

I believe your ticket was valid (as long as you dont use LU.

There is absolutely no chance that the ticket was valid. The ticket was used in violation of a time restriction as it is only valid from Gatwick Airport from 0932. It should have been excessed to an SOR with a £8.50 charge.

The question of route validity has been debated at immense length and I am not going to add to it.