Advice please! No Railcard

[ronjm]

I'm hoping someone can give me a bit of advice because I"m really confused over this.

On Friday I travelled between Yatton and Leeds on a ticket with a 16-25 railcard. Once I was on the train I realised my railcard was expired, so I quickly ordered myself a new one and hoped they wouldn't check tickets.

Of course 30 minutes before I got off the train they did check and I explained that I didn't have the right railcard with me, assuming they would make me buy a new full price ticket, or possibly pay a fine. Instead they took down my details, took my expired railcard, and said they would write to me.

I've tried to look up what this means and what to expect but I can't find anything. Every article or page I look up for a forgotten railcard says that you have to pay for a new ticket but this wasn't even an option for me.

Can anyone advise on what to expect? A fine? Or prosecution? I'm on a professional uni course so cannot have a criminal record, so I'm sure you can understand why I'm freaking out a bit.
This was an honest mistake and I was and still am fully prepared to pay whatever they ask, I just don't want to have a criminal record for what I think is a really small mistake.

 

[Kite159]

How long was the card expired for?

 

[ronjm]

How long was the card expired for?

It was expired since mid september, for some reason I thought I had a 3 year railcard rather than a 1 year so didn't even think to check

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I'm hoping someone can give me a bit of advice because I"m really confused over this.

On Friday I travelled between Yatton and Leeds on a ticket with a 16-25 railcard. Once I was on the train I realised my railcard was expired, so I quickly ordered myself a new one and hoped they wouldn't check tickets.

Of course 30 minutes before I got off the train they did check and I explained that I didn't have the right railcard with me, assuming they would make me buy a new full price ticket, or possibly pay a fine. Instead they took down my details, took my expired railcard, and said they would write to me.

I've tried to look up what this means and what to expect but I can't find anything. Every article or page I look up for a forgotten railcard says that you have to pay for a new ticket but this wasn't even an option for me.

Can anyone advise on what to expect? A fine? Or prosecution? I'm on a professional uni course so cannot have a criminal record, so I'm sure you can understand why I'm freaking out a bit.
This was an honest mistake and I was and still am fully prepared to pay whatever they ask, I just don't want to have a criminal record for what I think is a really small mistake.

Buying a new ticket and then getting that refunded is only an option if you have forgotten your Railcard. You had not forgotten your Railcard - you did not have a valid Railcard at all.

Unfortunately it does not look good for your - using an expired Railcard may be taken as evidence of intent to avoid payment of the correct.

Boarding a train without previously having paid the correct fare, and intending to avoid payment of the correct fare, is an offence under Section 5(3)(a) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 (RoRA). That does indeed carry a criminal record for one year if you are convicted of that offence.

As a result, you will no doubt want to avoid prosecution for this offence - whilst offering to pay onboard is better than refusing, the fact is that it wouldn't have been difficult to check the validity of your Railcard before setting off (and most manned ticket offices sell 16-25 Railcards).

The alternative offence under which you could be prosecuted would be Byelaw 18 of the Railway Byelaws 2005. This is a strict liability offence and so intent to avoid payment does not need to be proven, only that you did not hold a valid ticket when inspected (and that you could have bought one at your origin station). However, this does not carry a criminal record (it carries a similar level of fine to the RoRA offence), so if you are to be prosecuted, it would be better for it to be under this offence.

It won't necessarily be straightforward to convince the relevant train company to prosecute under Byelaw 18 rather than RoRA, if they are determined to prosecute the matter (and refuse offers of out of Court settlement). The particular train company involved may affect your chances of negotiating a settlement, or prosecution of a lesser offence - was it CrossCountry, GWR or LNER?

 

[ronjm]

Buying a new ticket and then getting that refunded is only an option if you have forgotten your Railcard. You had not forgotten your Railcard - you did not have a valid Railcard at all.

Unfortunately it does not look good for your - using an expired Railcard may be taken as evidence of intent to avoid payment of the correct.

Boarding a train without previously having paid the correct fare, and intending to avoid payment of the correct fare, is an offence under Section 5(3)(a) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 (RoRA). That does indeed carry a criminal record for one year if you are convicted of that offence.

As a result, you will no doubt want to avoid prosecution for this offence - whilst offering to pay onboard is better than refusing, the fact is that it wouldn't have been difficult to check the validity of your Railcard before setting off (and most manned ticket offices sell 16-25 Railcards).

The alternative offence under which you could be prosecuted would be Byelaw 18 of the Railway Byelaws 2005. This is a strict liability offence and so intent to avoid payment does not need to be proven, only that you did not hold a valid ticket when inspected (and that you could have bought one at your origin station). However, this does not carry a criminal record (it carries a similar level of fine to the RoRA offence), so if you are to be prosecuted, it would be better for it to be under this offence.

It won't necessarily be straightforward to convince the relevant train company to prosecute under Byelaw 18 rather than RoRA, if they are determined to prosecute the matter (and refuse offers of out of Court settlement). The particular train company involved may affect your chances of negotiating a settlement, or prosecution of a lesser offence - was it CrossCountry, GWR or LNER?

When I was asked for my ticket I thought the only option was the buy a full price ticket - I genuinely wasn't aware there was any other option e.g. fines/prosecution, so when she asked for my ticket I said I only had my old one and not my "new" one with me. I thought this was a justified white lie as I assumed would pay for a whole new ticket and I wouldn't have tried to claim the cost back or anything.
So the impression I gave the inspector was that I had forgotten it, which is why I was so confused by this whole thing.

I am aware that it wouldn't have been difficult to check, but in my head I had no reason to check as I thought I had a 3 year railcard, and I didn't realise until I was already on the train so I couldn't buy one at the station. I wasn't purposefully trying to swindle the train company, and even if they charged me a fine of hundreds of pounds I would instantly pay it.

This was with CrossCountry. The inspector was really nice and friendly and I kept apologising to which she told me "don't worry" and "it's okay", but didn't offer any explanation as to what I can expect. I could be kicked off my course if I get a criminal record so this is pretty upsetting to me.

 

[RPI]

Certainly with GWR we usually complete a Unpaid Fare Notice, Penalty Fare or report for prosecution, the customer can then produce their railcard later to prevent these getting progressed, each person is allowed one a year, the railcard would need to have been valid for the time and date travelled so you may be on a sticky wicket as the time of purchase will be logged

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

When I was asked for my ticket I thought the only option was the buy a full price ticket - I genuinely wasn't aware there was any other option e.g. fines/prosecution, so when she asked for my ticket I said I only had my old one and not my "new" one with me. I thought this was a justified white lie as I assumed would pay for a whole new ticket and I wouldn't have tried to claim the cost back or anything.
So the impression I gave the inspector was that I had forgotten it, which is why I was so confused by this whole thing.

I am aware that it wouldn't have been difficult to check, but in my head I had no reason to check as I thought I had a 3 year railcard, and I didn't realise until I was already on the train so I couldn't buy one at the station. I wasn't purposefully trying to swindle the train company, and even if they charged me a fine of hundreds of pounds I would instantly pay it.

This was with CrossCountry. The inspector was really nice and friendly and I kept apologising to which she told me "don't worry" and "it's okay", but didn't offer any explanation as to what I can expect. I could be kicked off my course if I get a criminal record so this is pretty upsetting to me.

Unfortunately the fact that you lied about forgetting your Railcard is probably going to make it very expensive, if not impossible, to avoid prosecution.

Had you indeed forgotten your Railcard, rather than not had one at all, the Train Manager would probably not have been wrong in saying that there was nothing to worry about - as, if you could show your in-date Railcard when you are written to, they will probably not ask for anything more than an administrative fee for the hassle.

But claiming to have a Railcard that you didn't have is pretty clear evidence of intent to avoid payment - the very same intent that you freely admit you had (!). If I were a CrossCountry prosecutions case worker with targets for the number of prosecutions, this case would be jumping out for a RoRA prosecution to be honest.

CrossCountry usually have an agent, Transport Investigations Ltd (TIL), handle all their prosecutions reports from receiving the initial report until they either get settled, or up until it goes to Court (with a CrossCountry-hired prosecutor).

TIL are not known to be particularly amenable to accepting out of Court settlements, I'm afraid to say. Perhaps it's because they are CrossCountry's contractors, so they may be paid for each letter/review of a case. Whatever the reason, you will want to find a way to have your side/settlement offer heard by CrossCountry rather than TIL if you are to have any reasonable chance of avoiding prosecution, in my view.

If a comparatively less-serious (and non-violent) conviction - even if spent after one year - would really result in you being expelled from university, then I think it may be worth considering spending the money on a criminal defence solicitor to try and arrange a settlement with CrossCountry. It will be expensive and you can forget about getting your costs back, but it may be worth it if there is a real risk of RoRA prosecution and a real risk of being expelled from university if you are convicted (this is something I would make sure is the case before relying on an assumption).

Unfortunately, your efforts to save a fare of perhaps £130 odd, may end up costing you significantly more. I'm sure you would have approached the situation differently at the time, had you known the potential consequences! I definitely think there is not a widespread enough understanding about the potential consequences of fare avoidance (many people think a Penalty Fare is the worst that could happen).

In any case, for now there's not much to be done other than waiting for a letter from CrossCountry. Perhaps you'll be in luck and they'll offer you a settlement, maybe it will be bad luck and they'll be saying they want to prosecute under RoRA. Whichever it is, keep an eye out for the letter, and make sure they have your up to date address (and that you can receive letters quickly at the address you gave) as otherwise that could lead to being convicted in your absence!

 

[221129]

The new policy for people using expired railcards or anything that leads to withdrawal of the railcard is to issue a TIR no exceptions.

 

[ronjm]

Unfortunately the fact that you lied about forgetting your Railcard is probably going to make it very expensive, if not impossible, to avoid prosecution.

Had you indeed forgotten your Railcard, rather than not had one at all, the Train Manager would probably not have been wrong in saying that there was nothing to worry about - as, if you could show your in-date Railcard when you are written to, they will probably not ask for anything more than an administrative fee for the hassle.

But claiming to have a Railcard that you didn't have is pretty clear evidence of intent to avoid payment - the very same intent that you freely admit you had (!). If I were a CrossCountry prosecutions case worker with targets for the number of prosecutions, this case would be jumping out for a RoRA prosecution to be honest.

CrossCountry usually have an agent, Transport Investigations Ltd (TIL), handle all their prosecutions reports from receiving the initial report until they either get settled, or up until it goes to Court (with a CrossCountry-hired prosecutor).

TIL are not known to be particularly amenable to accepting out of Court settlements, I'm afraid to say. Perhaps it's because they are CrossCountry's contractors, so they may be paid for each letter/review of a case. Whatever the reason, you will want to find a way to have your side/settlement offer heard by CrossCountry rather than TIL if you are to have any reasonable chance of avoiding prosecution, in my view.

If a comparatively less-serious (and non-violent) conviction - even if spent after one year - would really result in you being expelled from university, then I think it may be worth considering spending the money on a criminal defence solicitor to try and arrange a settlement with CrossCountry. It will be expensive and you can forget about getting your costs back, but it may be worth it if there is a real risk of RoRA prosecution and a real risk of being expelled from university if you are convicted (this is something I would make sure is the case before relying on an assumption).

Unfortunately, your efforts to save a fare of perhaps £130 odd, may end up costing you significantly more. I'm sure you would have approached the situation differently at the time, had you known the potential consequences! I definitely think there is not a widespread enough understanding about the potential consequences of fare avoidance (many people think a Penalty Fare is the worst that could happen).

In any case, for now there's not much to be done other than waiting for a letter from CrossCountry. Perhaps you'll be in luck and they'll offer you a settlement, maybe it will be bad luck and they'll be saying they want to prosecute under RoRA. Whichever it is, keep an eye out for the letter, and make sure they have your up to date address (and that you can receive letters quickly at the address you gave) as otherwise that could lead to being convicted in your absence!

I had no clue that this was even a possibility, and obviously knowing what I know now I would have been upfront from the start, but I just wanted to buy a new ticket, I didn't know there could be other consequences.

I'm not sure I understand your point about intent to avoid payment - I wanted to buy a full ticket but I wasn't allowed to. I'm not sure where I admitted to having intent to avoid payment, I genuinely just thought it would be less complicated to say can I have a new ticket rather than explain having an invalid railcard. If I had been allowed to buy a new ticket I never in a million years would have tried to claim it back, so on my part there was no intent to avoid it - when I bought my discounted ticket I thought my railcard was in date.
You mention my "efforts" to save £130, but I have not tried to save money - I actively tried to give them money and pay near £200 total but I wasn't allowed to. I would rather empty my bank account and overdraft and pay them as much as they wanted then end up with a criminal record and have my life effectively ruined.

Does anyone know roughly how long it would take for a letter to arrive? As I'm a student I have two addresses and I gave them both and showed my ID with my parents address on - is it likely to go to that address over my uni one?

 

[ronjm]

The new policy for people using expired railcards or anything that leads to withdrawal of the railcard is to issue a TIR no exceptions.

Sorry if this is a stupid question but what does TIR stand for?

 

[221129]

Sorry if this is a stupid question but what does TIR stand for?

Ticket Irregularity Report, basically means you take details along with any withdrawn tickets or other travel documents along with a brief report of the details which then get forwarded to Prosecutions for processing.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

It seems to me that @ForTheLoveOf's advice is good:essentially there's nothing you can do until you know if the railway will seek to prosecute you. They have up to six months to do this, so you will have to wait quite a long time for certainty.

There's one point that I'd add in terms of how you handle matters: your university may not be as hard on you as you fear. You could do with finding out what their position is. There's broadly two routes to do this: you can talk to the university (if your institution has a personal tutor system this is exactly what the personal tutors are there for) or if you're not 100% confident that the university will respect an enquiry like this you can talk to your student union/guild/equivalent. I think I would suggest starting with the student union: you may not be the first person to have had this problem, and they may be able to give you a straight answer about the implications sooner rather than later.

 

[ronjm]

It seems to me that @ForTheLoveOf's advice is good:essentially there's nothing you can do until you know if the railway will seek to prosecute you. They have up to six months to do this, so you will have to wait quite a long time for certainty.

There's one point that I'd add in terms of how you handle matters: your university may not be as hard on you as you fear. You could do with finding out what their position is. There's broadly two routes to do this: you can talk to the university (if your institution has a personal tutor system this is exactly what the personal tutors are there for) or if you're not 100% confident that the university will respect an enquiry like this you can talk to your student union/guild/equivalent. I think I would suggest starting with the student union: you may not be the first person to have had this problem, and they may be able to give you a straight answer about the implications sooner rather than later.

Thank you, I know that any criminal offence no matter how serious results in a fitness to practice hearing and suspension from placement until it is resolved (and if I don't do enough weeks of placement then I fail) so it's a pretty scary prospect for me to face over an accident.

This is something I will have to deal with once I get the letter from crosscountry. It's the waiting that is giving me anxiety, which is why I wanted to get some advice on here about what to expect/what I can do to make this better.

 

[gray1404]

You say you ordered yourself another railcard (I assume on your phone on board). Did you order a digital card? If so you would have had a valid railcard covering the day in question. If it was a physical card what is either the valid from or expiry date of that card (which I assume you will have now received). Depending on how quick they were processing and sending out cards you might actually have a valid railcard.

 

[221129]

You say you ordered yourself another railcard (I assume on your phone on board). Did you order a digital card? If so you would have had a valid railcard covering the day in question. If it was a physical card what is either the valid from or expiry date of that card (which I assume you will have now received). Depending on how quick they were processing and sending out cards you might actually have a valid railcard.

They didn't show it at the time so the rest of it is irrelevant.

 

[gray1404]

If they didn't show it at the time but happened to have a valid railcard, a valid one for that day of travel (i.e. if the digital railcard was issued straight away) or the physical railcard was issued same day and thus covered that day, could it help their case in terms of it being treated as a forgotten railcard case. (i.e. not available at the time but was a railcard holder)

 

[221129]

If they didn't show it at the time but happened to have a valid railcard, a valid one for that day of travel (i.e. if the digital railcard was issued straight away) or the physical railcard was issued same day and thus covered that day, could it help their case in terms of it being treated as a forgotten railcard case. (i.e. not available at the time but was a railcard holder)

No they can't as there was no additional ticket purchased.

 

[furlong]

I'm hoping someone can give me a bit of advice because I"m really confused over this.

On Friday I travelled between Yatton and Leeds on a ticket with a 16-25 railcard. Once I was on the train I realised my railcard was expired, so I quickly ordered myself a new one and hoped they wouldn't check tickets.

I'm really confused about this too! If you quickly ordered a new one why didn't you just tell the guard that's what you'd done and show them the order, instead of lying?

 

[ronjm]

I'm really confused about this too! If you quickly ordered a new one why didn't you just tell the guard that's what you'd done and show them the order, instead of lying?

The order confirmation specifically says that you can't use it as a railcard. I told him I only had an expired one and didn't have my new one (this check happened after I'd bought the new railcard) so I can't possibly imagine the outcome would be any different to how it went.
And as I said above, I wasn't trying to scam or do something clever, I just thought it would be easiest to buy a new ticket. I forgot my railcard once before about 5 years ago and they just made me buy a full price ticket so I had no reason to assume it would be different this time.

 

[ronjm]

You say you ordered yourself another railcard (I assume on your phone on board). Did you order a digital card? If so you would have had a valid railcard covering the day in question. If it was a physical card what is either the valid from or expiry date of that card (which I assume you will have now received). Depending on how quick they were processing and sending out cards you might actually have a valid railcard.

I ordered a physical one (as I didn't know digital ones even existed until after this - would have saved so much trouble!), and it's arrived with the expiry date as 8th Nov 2021, and I have no idea when it is technically valid from. Plus I don't know if crosscountry are able to see when it was purchased, so I don't want to dig myself a deeper hole and try to claim it had arrived before it had

 

[221129]

I ordered a physical one (as I didn't know digital ones even existed until after this - would have saved so much trouble!), and it's arrived with the expiry date as 8th Nov 2021, and I have no idea when it is technically valid from. Plus I don't know if crosscountry are able to see when it was purchased, so I don't want to dig myself a deeper hole and try to claim it had arrived before it had

It wouldn't matter anyway.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I ordered a physical one (as I didn't know digital ones even existed until after this - would have saved so much trouble!), and it's arrived with the expiry date as 8th Nov 2021, and I have no idea when it is technically valid from. Plus I don't know if crosscountry are able to see when it was purchased, so I don't want to dig myself a deeper hole and try to claim it had arrived before it had

I don't think lying about having a Railcard is a good idea - if you get found out (and I would have thought the expiry date would be raising suspicions, resulting in a check on the time of the order) then you could be in even more trouble.

I previously mentioned intent to avoid payment because I understand from your account that you claimed to have a valid Railcard but that you had forgotten it.

However this:

I told him I only had an expired one and didn't have my new one

Suggests that you were honest. Which is it - did you admit you didn't have a valid Railcard at all (i.e. not even forgotten), or did you say you'd forgotten yours?

In my view that makes a fairly significant difference - if you were honest then it may mean it is 'only' a non-recordable Byelaws conviction. If you were dishonest then RoRA may be unavoidable.

 

[robbeech]

Whilst it’s not acceptable, if you were prepared to buy a new ticket then there are mobile tickets available for the ‘not via London’ flow.

 

[ronjm]

I don't think lying about having a Railcard is a good idea - if you get found out (and I would have thought the expiry date would be raising suspicions, resulting in a check on the time of the order) then you could be in even more trouble.

I previously mentioned intent to avoid payment because I understand from your account that you claimed to have a valid Railcard but that you had forgotten it.

However this:


Suggests that you were honest. Which is it - did you admit you didn't have a valid Railcard at all (i.e. not even forgotten), or did you say you'd forgotten yours?

In my view that makes a fairly significant difference - if you were honest then it may mean it is 'only' a non-recordable Byelaws conviction. If you were dishonest then RoRA may be unavoidable.

I can't remember my exact words but I said something along the lines of "I don't have my new one" so I was vague which could either help me or get me in more trouble. I really didn't think very carefully about my words because I had no idea this would become a problem.
I don't know how they'd differentiate - would it come down to what the inspector thought? I've seen other people who have got on trains with no ticket say that they were asked to explain their side, should I expect to have to do that also?

 

[ronjm]

Whilst it’s not acceptable, if you were prepared to buy a new ticket then there are mobile tickets available for the ‘not via London’ flow.

I'm really annoyed at myself - I thought about just buying another mobile ticket while on the train but I thought I'd just wait to buy one from the inspector. Wish I'd just got another full price one and not waited.

 

[Typhoon]

There's one point that I'd add in terms of how you handle matters: your university may not be as hard on you as you fear. You could do with finding out what their position is. There's broadly two routes to do this: you can talk to the university (if your institution has a personal tutor system this is exactly what the personal tutors are there for) or if you're not 100% confident that the university will respect an enquiry like this you can talk to your student union/guild/equivalent. I think I would suggest starting with the student union: you may not be the first person to have had this problem, and they may be able to give you a straight answer about the implications sooner rather than later.

As someone who was involved with HE over a number of years I think that this is exactly the right advice. The student members probably won't be much help but there should be experienced support staff who may know the way forward. Also, if your Union is affiliated to the NUS, they will certainly have come across this or a similar problem before. I know it means explaining this to a number of strangers but you need a solution to a very difficult problem and successful solution beats embarrassment every day of the week.
At least two institutions I worked for employed counsellors. These would be a suitable port of call as well, if only because they are experts at relieving stress. They are usually incredibly busy but don't be put off. They may also have connections within faculties and might know exactly whom to approach if department staff need to know - it might be a member of the admin staff whom you've never seen. It might be that it is suggested that a letter is written to the TOC in support of you and your situation (no guarantee of success of course, but a judge let a medical student off - well almost - for a much more serious crime) and they know whose name is best to put at the end of it. Your average lecturer will hold little sway but the right job title might carry some weight.
As someone who was a personal tutor for several years, I would put them near the back of the queue unless it is suggested by the Union of a counsellor; in my opinion they vary in how seriously they take the role, also if my experience is anything to go by, have had little or no useful training for it. This shouldn't be the case but often is. They might even have been a student themselves just eighteen months ago. Regard them as amateurs in the field. They might never have come across a similar problem - money and 'relationships' were the staples as far as I was concerned. If I had been your personal tutor, my advice would be to go to the Union or see the counsellor (I would probably have facilitated the latter); I know nothing of the law and would be s##t scared of giving the wrong advice.
Remember, although it might not seem like it, academics would have been students once and almost certainly didn't spend all their waking hours in the lecture theatre or library and may be more sympathetic than you think provided they believe that you made a genuine mistake.