advice PLEASE HELP

[gladyscourt]

hey guys

my partner got on a train on monday and had completely forgot to buy ticket, the train started moving and he realised got his money out and saw a guard coming down. they told him he was boarding without a ticket which meant he could go to court, my partner panicked and they had an altercation (just verbal hes not violent in the slightest) the guard turned out to be a revenue protection office andsaid she was going to penelty fine him, she asked for his id but he doesnt have any. she then said she wasgoing to call police andhe was like ive done nothing wrong bar the ticket! a guard then came over and told him that he didnt need id just his address. she didnt penelty fine him but he was only told that hes being reported to south west trains. He threw his fair £4.60 on the floor and said this is madness, left a wad of old tickets on the table to prove hes not a serial offender (i said he shud have kept them!!!!) but anyway

He knows the rules and realises hes been silly, but he has no clue of what happens now!!! We are friends with a barrister who said its likely to be a caution, up to a nice big fine. But my partner has depression and is convinced he'll be sent to prison and everything.

I need some sound advice here please, i know there is nothing much we can do until we receive a letter. But hes panicing so much i just dont know what to do. A fine we can deal with, but hes making me worry about prison :cry:

 

[yorkie]

hey guys

my partner got on a train on monday and had completely forgot to buy ticket, the train started moving and he realised got his money out and saw a guard coming down. they told him he was boarding without a ticket which meant he could go to court, my partner panicked and they had an altercation (just verbal hes not violent in the slightest) the guard turned out to be a revenue protection office andsaid she was going to penelty fine him, she asked for his id but he doesnt have any. she then said she wasgoing to call police andhe was like ive done nothing wrong bar the ticket!

Is this really how the conversation went?

a guard then came over and told him that he didnt need id just his address. she didnt penelty fine him but he was only told that hes being reported to south west trains. He threw his fair £4.60 on the floor and said this is madness, left a wad of old tickets on the table to prove hes not a serial offender (i said he shud have kept them!!!!) but anyway

So a Penalty Fare was going to be charged and then suddenly it changed to a report for prosecution? It sounds to me like the passenger refused to co-operate with the issuing of a Penalty Fare (a higher than normal fare that is charged in certain circumstances when a passenger makes a mistake) and that is why the matter has been reported for a possible prosecution, which may result in a Court issuing a fine.

He knows the rules and realises hes been silly, but he has no clue of what happens now!!! We are friends with a barrister who said its likely to be a caution, up to a nice big fine. But my partner has depression and is convinced he'll be sent to prison and everything.

A caution? No. But it won't be a prison sentence either!

I need some sound advice here please, i know there is nothing much we can do until we receive a letter. But hes panicing so much i just dont know what to do. A fine we can deal with, but hes making me worry about prison :cry:

It is unclear what advice you are looking for, but if it's just the re-assurance that he won't go to prison, then I think I can give you that.

I suggest reading this: RailUK Fares & Ticketing Guide - Section 10 - Disputes (which I have given you access to) and, in particular:

10.9 Prosecutions

Train Operating Companies have specific legislation they can use to prosecute passengers. Some common examples of offences include:

• Travelling (or travelling over-distance) with the intention of avoiding paying the fare due (or part of the fare due)
• Failure to produce a valid ticket
• Failure to give name and address
• Altering tickets

The first of these is an offence under the Regulation of Railways Act (RoRA). Merely failing to produce a ticket (no evidence of intent) is an offence under the Railway Byelaws. Failure to give name and address could come under either the RoRA or Byelaws, as appropriate. Altering tickets is also a Byelaw offence, though in serious cases it could be considered Fraud.

Offences under the Regulation of Railways Act result are recordable offences and a conviction will be disclosed if a CRB check (Standard or Enhanced) is performed.

Offences under the Railway Byelaws are not recordable offences and a conviction should not be disclosed if a CRB check (Standard or Enhanced) is performed.

For more information please see Section 8 - Legal

An out of court settlement is another possible outcome, as discussed in numerous threads on this forum and also mentioned in our Guide.

 

[455driver]

hey guys

my partner got on a train on Monday and had completely forgot to buy ticket, the train started moving and he realised got his money out and saw a guard coming down. they told him he was boarding without a ticket which meant he could go to court, my partner panicked and they had an altercation (just verbal hes not violent in the slightest) the guard turned out to be a revenue protection office and said she was going to penalty fine him, she asked for his id but he doesnt have any. she then said she was going to call police and he was like I've done nothing wrong bar the ticket! a guard then came over and told him that he didnt need id just his address. she didnt penalty fine him but he was only told that hes being reported to south west trains. He threw his fair £4.60 on the floor and said this is madness, left a wad of old tickets on the table to prove hes not a serial offender (i said he should have kept them!!!!) but anyway

He knows the rules and realises hes been silly, but he has no clue of what happens now!!! We are friends with a barrister who said its likely to be a caution, up to a nice big fine. But my partner has depression and is convinced he'll be sent to prison and everything.

I need some sound advice here please, i know there is nothing much we can do until we receive a letter. But hes panicking so much i just dont know what to do. A fine we can deal with, but hes making me worry about prison :cry:

I have highlighted the important bits-
He boarded without a ticket "because he forgot" but remembered as soon as he saw the RPI.

He started verbally abusing the RPI when he got caught fare dodging fair and square and is being taken to court, seems fair enough to me.

"Done nothing wrong bar the ticket", well except the verbal abuse and throwing money around (probably in a very aggressive manner).

"He threw his money on the floor", got a bit of a temper on him hasnt he!

Shame really, if he had just paid up without the "altercation" and "throwing money on the floor" it would have cost him a few quid more, now it will probably cost several £100 more.

As for his panicking, good, if he hadnt have been so threatening and abusive (how does the RPI know he isnt violent?) it would have been sorted out there and then

Bearing in mind you have mentioned the "altercation" and "throwing money on the floor" (what else havent you mentioned) I dont think many people will want to help you, well a few of the usual suspects will but abusing railstaff (who have a difficult job to do at the best of time) doesnt help his cause one bit.

 

[Tibbs]

How do you know the passenger started the altercation?

 

[GadgetMan]

How do you know the passenger started the altercation?

It doesn't really matter how the conversation started. If you are the person in the wrong then it is important not to fail the attitude test as it's you that has something to lose.

I have been pulled over for speeding a couple of times in the past. And the officers made some pretty sarcastic comments at the beginning of the conversation, had I taken offence to it and given them attitude I'd have guaranteed myself some nice costly paperwork. Instead I took it on the chin, played along remaining polite and co-operative and got sent on my way with a telling off.

The attitude test is pretty common place and failing it pretty much guarantees the worse possible outcome if you're on the wrong side of the rules/law.

 

[SephenWorceste]

Verbal altercation and throwing things. Totally unacceptable behaviour.

 

[455driver]

So you are saying the RPI did!

Usually the passenger tries the "oh I was running late" etc bit but as soon as the RPI mentions penalty fare the passenger gets all "altercational" hoping the RPI will let them off where-as it just makes things much much worse.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I have been pulled over for speeding a couple of times in the past. And the officers made some pretty sarcastic comments at the beginning of the conversation

The best I have had was "are we struggling to take off sir!".

 

[GadgetMan]

The best I have had was "are we struggling to take off sir!".

I take it the wind was behind you then.

 

[455driver]

I was driving a single decker bus at the time, quite embarrassing in front of a bus full of passengers!

Full as in full standing load, right up to capacity.

 

[soil]

hey guys

my partner got on a train on monday and had completely forgot to buy ticket

That would seem unusual. At which station did this happen? Was it a station he normally travels from/near your home?

South West Trains generally make it quite clear that you must pay before boarding.

the train started moving and he realised got his money out and saw a guard coming down. they told him he was boarding without a ticket which meant he could go to court, my partner panicked and they had an altercation (just verbal hes not violent in the slightest) the guard turned out to be a revenue protection office andsaid she was going to penelty fine him, she asked for his id but he doesnt have any. she then said she wasgoing to call police andhe was like ive done nothing wrong bar the ticket! a guard then came over and told him that he didnt need id just his address. she didnt penelty fine him but he was only told that hes being reported to south west trains. He threw his fair £4.60 on the floor and said this is madness, left a wad of old tickets on the table to prove hes not a serial offender (i said he shud have kept them!!!!) but anyway

This is known as 'failing the attitude test'.

Having failed, you will now have to pay the price, which I guess will be an out-of-court settlement of around £100 if you are lucky, or a slightly larger fine/costs in court.

 

[gladyscourt]

He knows hes done wrong theres no getting away from that and i know hes done wrong and whatever the consequences are,they will be dealt with it. I know its bad and i understand some of you comments about not wanting to help. All i asked for is that someone give me clarification on this. I dont know the whole story as i wasnt there. This is how he relayed iy to me. He doesnt usually have a temper, but obviously this situation he did. No one can tell me that they havent flipped the lid before. Jus so happens this time cud get him in trouble. Grrrr. A fine can be dealt with. And whatever they ask we will pay, bcox thats the rules!

 

[island]

The problem here is that it's a criminal offence to join a train without a ticket at a station where ticketing facilities are available, and he could end up in court.

 

[Flamingo]

How do you know the passenger started the altercation?

Idiot comment of the week! :roll:

So, he was caught attempting to fare evade, and his response was to try and intimidate the (female) RPI by shouting and throwing money around?

As somebody who has to deal with situations like this frequently when scum think they can bully their way out of fare evasion by behaving like a spoilt brat, this male is lucky not to be facing a public-order charge.

Normally I will have some sympathy in these cases, if the passenger involved has behaved in a civil manner. Behaviour like that reported by the OP (who has only heard the version presented by her BF, so probably the sanitised version), is not deserving of sympathy or help from this forum.

 

[RPI]

If the OP's partner was abusive then expect a byelaw 6 to be added to the offences being reported for or possibly a knock from BTP for a public order offence, this is commonplace where the TOC will report the ticket offence and the RPI will report the abuse to BTP, BTP seem to be having a huge clamp down on aggression towards staff lately, I've had a few people have a go lately all of whom have ended up in court, bypassing the usual £80 PND or caution.

 

[Tibbs]

So you are saying the RPI did!

I notice you didn't answer my question, so is it safe to surmise you have no evidence, just your prejudice?

And don't put words in my mouth I've made no comment on who I think started it.

Based on what the op wrote we have no way to know who started the altercation.

 

[Tibbs]

Idiot comment of the week! :roll:

So, he was caught attempting to fare evade, and his response was to try and intimidate the (female) RPI by shouting and throwing money around?

As somebody who has to deal with situations like this frequently when scum think they can bully their way out of fare evasion by behaving like a spoilt brat, this male is lucky not to be facing a public-order charge.

Normally I will have some sympathy in these cases, if the passenger involved has behaved in a civil manner. Behaviour like that reported by the OP (who has only heard the version presented by her BF, so probably the sanitised version), is not deserving of sympathy or help from this forum.

I've had dealings with 2 RPIs over the course of the past few years.

The first chap was very polite and we sorted everything out.

The second RPI i had dealings with was extremely aggressive verbally making all sorts of threats before I managed to calm her down. I was extremely ill at the time and on my way to hospital and I found her body language and demeanour very frightening. Abuse by women on men, both physical and verbal is one of the most under-reported crimes out there, mainly due to views similar to yours that says the woman is never at fault, and the man is always the aggressor.

As with 455, please don't read into my comment more than is there. My post was an attempt to get 455 to at least consider that there's a possibility that the most obvious scenario isn't the only one that exists.

I've made no assumption about who started it, indeed it's likely was the op's other half. However, and this is the important bit, based on the evidence we have here we cannot conclusively say who started it. Unless you have evidence to say otherwise of course?

 

[gladyscourt]

Im certainly not asking for sympathy coz what hes done is wrong and i dont think u can all see that i totally agree as does he. I dont want sympathy, thats not what i asked for. Just some insight to what could happen efrom what iv said. I wasnt there so i do not kno every word that happened or even if different things happened.

 

[island]

What could happen is anything between your husband hearing nothing further of the matter, being charged with avoiding payment of a railway fare, and him getting arrested and charged with behaviour likely to cause a person harassment, alarm, or distress, with a lot more in between. The two offences I mentioned each carry a maximum fine of £1,000 with costs and victim surcharge payable in addition. I would stress that the latter two would be quite unlikely.

What might end up happening is him making a payment perhaps in the region of £120 in return for the matter being dropped.

 

[yorkie]

... Just some insight to what could happen efrom what iv said. ....

As you have that, I'll close the thread. If any more developments occur, simply request that the thread be reopened and we will reopen it for you.