Advice on SouthEastern Penalty Fare Notice

[Sussex_Exile]

Hi

After a bit of advice on appealing a penalty fare.

I was travelling between Grove Park and Worthing on a period return ticket purchased on the trainline App, with a Network Card discount.
Unfortunately I made a mistake on the App and ordered a return from London Bridge in error.

I realised my mistake on the outward journey and checked to see what the cost would have been from Grove Park.
The app came back with a total cost which was cheaper than the ticket I had purchased (London Terminals).

My second mistake was to assume that as the Grove Park Ticket was cheaper, then the ticket I had purchased, incorporated Grove Park and thought no more about it.

On my return journey, I was stopped at Grove Park station by the revenue protection team, who after the usual rigmarole issued a penalty fare of £106.70 to both myself and my wife.


I wish to appeal this decision as it was a genuine mistake based on the price of the ticket I had purchased.
My understanding is that as I hadn't exited the station any journey, by a reasonable route is acceptable.
I therefore assume that I could have legitimately returned to the platform and taken a train back to London Bridge and exited there, and then tapped in with a contactless card. ( I was not given this option).

I would appreciate any help on this matter, as I don't wish to spend a further £112.40 - £212.40 on a ticket I have already spent £4.20 more than I needed to.

Thanks

 

[notmyrealname]

Hi.

Would you be able to post any paperwork you've received so the experts can have a look please? You need to cover up your name, address and their reference number.

 

[Sussex_Exile]

It happened a couple of hours ago.
As yet I just have a receipt from one of their machines.

Will that do?

 

[Watershed]

It happened a couple of hours ago.
As yet I just have a receipt from one of their machines.

Will that do?

Yes, any paperwork you have will help here.

Can you also clarify the route you had taken at the point you were stopped? Was it Worthing, then a change somewhere along the Brighton Main Line, then a change at London Bridge followed by continuing onto Grove Park?

 

[Sussex_Exile]

Yes, any paperwork you have will help here.

Can you also clarify the route you had taken at the point you were stopped? Was it Worthing, then a change somewhere along the Brighton Main Line, then a change at London Bridge followed by continuing onto Grove Park?

Worthing - East Croydon - London Bridge - GrovePark - I was stopped at the exit of Grove Park station - not on the train.

 

[Watershed]

Worthing - East Croydon - London Bridge - GrovePark - I was stopped at the exit of Grove Park station - not on the train.

Ok, so at that point your ticket would indeed have expired. Could you provide us with the rest of the notice too, i.e. the top section (with your name and any reference numbers obscured)?

 

[Sussex_Exile]

Ok, so at that point your ticket would indeed have expired. Could you provide us with the rest of the notice too, i.e. the top section (with your name and any reference numbers obscured)?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Aug 2024 ==

Ok, so at that point your ticket would indeed have expired. Could you provide us with the rest of the notice too, i.e. the top section (with your name and any reference numbers obscured)?

 

[furlong]

What a surprise! I thought the train company had no interest in issuing Penalty Fares for journeys originating at London Bridge!

Well the obvious thing to do is to appeal based on the fact that, unless things have changed since I was last there, there is no signage at London Bridge about Penalty Fares visible when you change trains, so it blatantly could not have been issued in accordance with the regulations.

I like to challenge people to see how many pieces of Penalty Fares signage they can find at London Bridge. Perhaps someone can check the place hasn't had a recent makeover!

 

[Sussex_Exile]

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Aug 2024 ==

The ticket was to/From London Terminals - does that not mean that I could have travelled on to another london station?
I had not passed any barriers, since Worthing.

 

[island]

The ticket was to/From London Terminals - does that not mean that I could have travelled on to another london station?
I had not passed any barriers, since Worthing.

Once you reach a London Terminal, you can keep travelling to other London Terminals (e.g. London Bridge and then Cannon Street), but not to any other station.

Grove Park is not a London Terminal.

 

[Sussex_Exile]

Once you reach a London Terminal, you can keep travelling to other London Terminals, but not to any other station.

Grove Park is not a London Terminal.

Ok, but surely I could have travelled back to London Bridge?

 

[furlong]

The second ground for appeal should be the compelling reason that you paid more than the correct ticket - which covered a complete part of your journey - would have cost.
(This all assumes there aren't other problems relating to things you haven't told us.)
Where they've charged you more for a shorter journey, they should be using their discretion to take no action.

 

[island]

Ok, but surely I could have travelled back to London Bridge?

As soon as you left London Bridge, you no longer had a valid ticket. You cannot turn back time. (And in any event once you had left the officer's view at Grove Park and got on a train back towards London, what's to say you wouldn't just hop back off at Hither Green?)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Aug 2024 ==

The second ground for appeal should be the compelling reason that you paid more than the correct ticket - which covered a complete part of your journey - would have cost.

This is not one of the valid grounds of appeal in the Penalty Fares regulations.

 

[MrJeeves]

@Sussex_Exile Does your penalty fare slip not have a section that states where it was issued from, the time, the person who issued it, and the grounds for issue?

Taking from another thread, I'd imagine it should have a section similar to this, which I can't see in your photos:

 

[Sussex_Exile]

As soon as you left London Bridge, you no longer had a valid ticket. You cannot turn back time. (And in any event once you had left the officer's view at Grove Park and got on a train back towards London, what's to say you wouldn't just hop back off at Hither Green?)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Aug 2024 ==


This is not one of the valid grounds of appeal in the Penalty Fares regulations.

Thanks that answers my query.

If there is no valid appeal based on the price of my ticket, then I just have to pony up, I guess.


As I say, it was a genuine mistake, i just forgot to change the starting station back to Grove Park, on the app.

If i ever find myself in the same situation.
Can i cancel my ticket and buy the correct one?
Or should i just turn around and go back to LB, without explaining the situation to the revenue protection squad?

 

[furlong]

This is not one of the valid grounds of appeal in the Penalty Fares regulations.

A compelling reason certainly IS a valid ground of appeal in the regulations.

(3) The grounds on which an appeal under this regulation may be made are that—
...
(d) there are compelling reasons why, in the particular circumstances of the case, the appellant should not be liable to pay the penalty fare.

-

But it is of course for the Appeals Panel to judge whether or not the compelling reasons put forward are indeed compelling.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Aug 2024 ==

The panel has no discretion if there are still no posters at London Bridge in the places where they are required:

8 (4) Standard notices and compulsory ticket area notices must also be displayed at sufficient locations around the station so that at least one notice is readily visible to passengers prior to boarding
a train at the station, including passengers changing from one train to another train.

I'd focus on that. Even the normal "notices use the wrong wording" argument is difficult to include in the appeal when there seem to be no notices at all within the barriers!

 

[soil]

Thanks that answers my query.

If there is no valid appeal based on the price of my ticket, then I just have to pony up, I guess.


As I say, it was a genuine mistake, i just forgot to change the starting station back to Grove Park, on the app.

If i ever find myself in the same situation.
Can i cancel my ticket and buy the correct one?
Or should i just turn around and go back to LB, without explaining the situation to the revenue protection squad?

The signage, if not correct, defeats the penalty fare unreservedly.

You had a ticket from Worthing to London. You then made a separate journey to Grove Park. If there was no compliant signage between the platforms at London Bridge that you used informing of the current penalty fare the penalty fare. You should submit an appeal, which is likely to succeed

 

[furlong]

Indeed - in practice the easiest thing to do is to remember or check which platforms you used (the forum can help you look this up if need be), then if there was no signage on your route, state that in the appeal and mention the platform numbers. If you are at the station again, you could even record a little video just in case you need it if they put up posters later, and then include a couple of pictures with the appeal Your appeal then gets upheld unless the train company contests your assertion and provides evidence that refutes what you say. That's how the system is meant to work at least.

 

[island]

A compelling reason certainly IS a valid ground of appeal in the regulations

“The fare paid for the invalid ticket was more than the fare the passenger could have paid for a valid ticket” is not a compelling reason, no matter how hard you torture the words.

The OP should stick to the signage argument.

 

[furlong]

“The fare paid for the invalid ticket was more than the fare the passenger could have paid for a valid ticket” is not a compelling reason, no matter how hard you torture the words.

In your opinion, but that is a matter for the panel and normally we suggest people provide multiple grounds for appeal when they can. I would argue it is compelling if the railway has gained rather than lost money. These regulations exist after all to protect revenue so in circumstances where there was no loss they don't necessarily have any role. Not all errors have to be punished.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

You travelled beyond the validity of your ticket and, however unintentioned that was, legally that is an offence. A Penalty Fare is an appropriate way of healing with someone who makes an unintentional mistake.

Penalty Fares must be issued in accordance with the regulations that are very prescriptive. There might be some very technical reasons why your Penalty Fare was not issued in accordance with the regulations which is what @furlong is referring to.

There is nothing to be lost by appealing, although I wouldn't expect a stage 1 or stage 2 appeal to be successful. There is a greater chance of success at stage 3 but the appeak needs to be framed in a very specific way, referring to the very specific deficencies in how the notice wan't issued in accordance with the regulations, to succeed.

 

[Watershed]

“The fare paid for the invalid ticket was more than the fare the passenger could have paid for a valid ticket” is not a compelling reason, no matter how hard you torture the words.

I'd have thought it is a very arguable case that "I paid more than I would have done for a valid ticket" is a compelling reason for an appeal to be allowed. But ultimately it comes down to the 3 appeals panels and whether they agree.

 

[MrJeeves]

I think if you mention both arguments together it is more likely to result in a successful appeal than either one on its own, personally. It would be important to get the structure and balance correct.

 

[Grvrdvicdr]

If i ever find myself in the same situation.
Can i cancel my ticket and buy the correct one?
Or should i just turn around and go back to LB, without explaining the situation to the revenue protection squad?

Be careful with this one, as if you got back on the train to London Bridge you wouldn’t have a valid ticket to do so, and could also be seen as intended fare evasion which would go down a prosecution route. Best bet is to ensure you have the correct tickets

 

[MotCO]

I think if you mention both arguments together it is more likely to result in a successful appeal than either one on its own, personally. It would be important to get the structure and balance correct.

I think we have seen appeals based on incorrect signage succeed where there is another ground for appeal, because I don't think they like to be caught out on the signage technicalities. Giving them a second reason gives them a 'get out' clause in your favour.

 

[soil]

I think we have seen appeals based on incorrect signage succeed where there is another ground for appeal, because I don't think they like to be caught out on the signage technicalities. Giving them a second reason gives them a 'get out' clause in your favour.

the signage reason is sufficient on its own, but no harm providing others.

Regulation 16

(2) An appeal under this regulation must be made—

(b)on one or more of the grounds specified in paragraph (3).

(3) The grounds on which an appeal under this regulation may be made are that—

(a)the penalty fare was not charged in accordance with the requirements of these Regulations;

(d)there are compelling reasons why, in the particular circumstances of the case, the appellant should not be liable to pay the penalty fare.

(4) Where the appellant makes representations as part of an appeal under this regulation in relation to any of the matters specified in paragraph (5), it is for the operator on whose behalf the penalty fare was charged to provide evidence that reasonably demonstrates that any fact described by the appellant in relation to any of those matters is not true.

(5) The matters referred to in paragraph (4) are—

(a)in circumstances where the appellant was charged a penalty fare in relation to travelling by, being present on, or leaving a train—

(i)by which train and preceding train or trains, if any, the appellant was travelling or had travelled or on which train the appellant was present or had been present;

(ii)at which station the appellant boarded the train and any preceding train or trains and at which station the appellant intended to leave that train;

(iii)whether any of the circumstances mentioned in regulations 6(2) applied;

(7) If the relevant Appeal Panel, after considering an appeal under this regulation, concludes that any ground specified in paragraph (3) applies, it must allow the appeal.

Regulation 6

(1) a person travelling by, present on, or leaving a train (in this regulation “the passenger”) must not be charged a penalty fare where either paragraph (2) or (3) applies.

(2) This paragraph applies if, at the time when, and at the station where, the passenger boarded the train—

(a)there were no facilities in operation for the sale of a travel ticket for that passenger’s journey;

(b)the requirements for the display of notices specified in regulation 8 were not satisfied;

(3) This paragraph applies if—

(a)the passenger has travelled on a preceding train;

(b)at the time when, and at the station where, the passenger boarded the first of the preceding trains, any of sub-paragraphs (a) to (b) of paragraph (2) applied; and

(c)at the time when, and at the station where, the passenger changed from any preceding train—

(i)any of sub-paragraphs (a) to (b) of paragraph (2) applied; or

(ii)the passenger did not have sufficient time between leaving one train and boarding the next to purchase a travel ticket.

 

[Sussex_Exile]

Thanks for all the information.

I'm genuinely surprised that the fact my ticket price was more than the price of the actual fare is unlikely to be successful grounds for appeal, in it's own right.
I guess that shows what a mess the whole industry is in, with regards to pricing.

I don't feel comfortable about appealing on the grounds of signage as this is not the reason for my appeal and it isn't just about the money.
In reality I made some bad assumptions having checked the cost of the valid ticket and got unlucky.

Irritating, but there it is.

 

[MotCO]

Thanks for all the information.

I'm genuinely surprised that the fact my ticket price was more than the price of the actual fare is unlikely to be successful grounds for appeal, in it's own right.
I guess that shows what a mess the whole industry is in, with regards to pricing.

I don't feel comfortable about appealing on the grounds of signage as this is not the reason for my appeal and it isn't just about the money.
In reality I made some bad assumptions having checked the cost of the valid ticket and got unlucky.

Irritating, but there it is.

The issue with the signage is that for a penalty fare to succeed, it must meet all the conditions of the regulations, including signage, quoting the correct fare, quoting the correct journey etc. etc. If they have messed up, why should you not benefit? You messed up, and they are trying to get you to pay almost twice as much for your ticket. They have not lost out financially (in fact they have profited), so a sense of 'natural justice' should allow you to be treated fairly, i.e. not surcharged with a penalty fare.

The railway should take a holistic approach. If they had taken a pragmatic solution because there was no loss of revenue e.g. just charge you a single from London Bridge, or let you off with a warning, then you are likely to continue to use the railway, taking more care in future. Treating you as they are, they could lose you as a customer.

 

[Sussex_Exile]

The issue with the signage is that for a penalty fare to succeed, it must meet all the conditions of the regulations, including signage, quoting the correct fare, quoting the correct journey etc. etc. If they have messed up, why should you not benefit? You messed up, and they are trying to get you to pay almost twice as much for your ticket. They have not lost out financially (in fact they have profited), so a sense of 'natural justice' should allow you to be treated fairly, i.e. not surcharged with a penalty fare.

The railway should take a holistic approach. If they had taken a pragmatic solution because there was no loss of revenue e.g. just charge you a single from London Bridge, or let you off with a warning, then you are likely to continue to use the railway, taking more care in future. Treating you as they are, they could lose you as a customer.

It is this more than anything else which has annoyed me here.
I wanted to talk to someone, as it was a genuine mistake, which I felt should be easily resolved.
There was no interest in me as a consumer, just treated me as a fare dodger, which I clearly wasn't.

In future I will know better.
Absolutely no point in expecting a reasonable response.

 

[soil]

It is this more than anything else which has annoyed me here.
I wanted to talk to someone, as it was a genuine mistake, which I felt should be easily resolved.
There was no interest in me as a consumer, just treated me as a fare dodger, which I clearly wasn't.

In future I will know better.
Absolutely no point in expecting a reasonable response.

it's not so bad. there's an appeal process

Make an Appeal - Penalty Services

www.penaltyservices.co.uk

appeal.

every reason to appeal, and no reason not to.