Advice on sightly complicated refund/delay repay Keighley to Glasgow

[Deerfold]

I had a disrupted day on Thursday.
Two of us had tickets from Keighley to Glasgow.

We had a Keighley to Hellifield off peak single then Hellifield to Glasgow advance valid on the 1349 Avanti from Carlisle due Glasgow Central 1500.

Approaching Carlisle I realised there were many cancellations of Avanti (the 5 before mine, mine and the one after at that point) with only the short 1408 ScotRail service running in the near future due to arrive 1640

I don't know if Avanti tickets were accepted in this service because I booked us onto the Flixbus at 1400 due Glasgow 1600, actual arrival 1605 (which cost more than my original rail journey at short notice).

Do I treat this as abandoning journey and ask for a refund? Is that from the booking site? Or do I claim from Avanti?

 

[Wallsendmag]

you get a refund from the booking site on an unused ticket. If you travelled you can claim delay repay from the operator

 

[Deerfold]

you get a refund from the booking site on an unused ticket. If you travelled you can claim delay repay from the operator

I travelled, but only as far as Carlisle. That's why I'm trying to clarify.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

It's a refund from original retailer.
Delay repay is not applicable as you did not complete your intended journey.

This may not be straightforward if you've used a third party booking service and your tickets have been scanned - it is probably best in an email.

 

[Haywain]

It's a refund from original retailer.
Delay repay is not applicable as you did not complete your intended journey.

This may not be straightforward if you've used a third party booking service and your tickets have been scanned - it is probably best in an email.

Is it a refund? The National Rail Conditions of Travel changed at the beginning of April and now say:

You are also entitled to a refund under these Conditions if you begin your journey but are unable to complete it due to a delay to, or cancellation of your service and you return to your point of origin.

As the OP did not return to the point of origin it is far from clear what he should do.

 

[Adam Williams]

Is it a refund? The National Rail Conditions of Travel changed at the beginning of April and now say:

RDG have said that under circumstances similar to this that neither Delay Repay nor an abandoned journey refund is appropriate (because the customer got to their destination), and the customer should write to the TOC for a "discretionary payment".

 

[Haywain]

RDG have said that under circumstances similar to this that neither Delay Repay nor an abandoned journey refund is appropriate (because the customer got to their destination), and the customer should write to the TOC for a "discretionary payment".

Well, that's a pile of sh**e, leaving the customer with no idea what they're entitled to.

 

[redreni]

Well, that's a pile of sh**e.

I couldn't have put it better!

 

[Belperpete]

RDG have said that under circumstances similar to this that neither Delay Repay nor an abandoned journey refund is appropriate (because the customer got to their destination), and the customer should write to the TOC for a "discretionary payment".

As the OP used a bus, presumably he didn't end up at Glasgow Central Station, which was his booked destination. I would also argue that whatever the OP did once he left railway premises is nothing to do with the TOC. His railway journey was abandoned.

 

[Deerfold]

As the OP used a bus, presumably he didn't end up at Glasgow Central Station, which was his booked destination. I would also argue that whatever the OP did once he left railway premises is nothing to do with the TOC. His railway journey was abandoned.

I walked past Central. Should I have remained on the railway system for as long as it took (Avanti continues cancelling trains after I left Carlisle)? I was 75 minutes later than planned using my initiative. If I could have got that Scotrail I'd have been 100 minutes late and entitled to the full value of my ticket. It seems bizarre that I should have made their life slightly easier by not having to get me to my destination and be entitled to less.

By the time I got to Glasgow they'd issued advice not to travel that day,

 

[alistairlees]

The fairest outcome would be for the OP to get Delay Repay compensation based on the time he would have arrived, had he continued his journey by train (or alternative transport provided by the train operators). In this case it would be so much ddelay that he would be entitled to 100% Delay Repay Compensation.

 

[Adam Williams]

Well, that's a pile of sh**e, leaving the customer with no idea what they're entitled to.

I have not yet retired, so it would of course be unprofessional of me to comment

I'm sure you can guess how well this goes down with customers though.

His railway journey was abandoned.

The position seems to be that you've not abandoned the journey unless you've returned to the point of origin, and the tickets are otherwise considered used and non-refundable.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jun 2024 ==

The fairest outcome would be for the OP to get Delay Repay compensation based on the time he would have arrived, had he continued his journey by train (or alternative transport provided by the train operators). In this case it would be so much ddelay that he would be entitled to 100% Delay Repay Compensation.

Agree with this. Ideally that would get codified somewhere.

 

[Haywain]

It seems bizarre that I should have made their life slightly easier by not having to get me to my destination and be entitled to less.

I couldn't agree more. It seems that you are punished for taking the initiative rather than accepting the additional delay that you would incur by hoping the railway will resolve the issue.

 

[yorkie]

For sure, a refund is not due, as the first ticket was wholly used and the second ticket was partially used.

Compensation should be sought instead.

The fairest outcome would be for the OP to get Delay Repay compensation based on the time he would have arrived, had he continued his journey by train (or alternative transport provided by the train operators). In this case it would be so much ddelay that he would be entitled to 100% Delay Repay Compensation.

I completely agree.

I was talking with some forum members only yesterday about this sort of scenario, and it really should be the case that you are treated as if you completed the journey by rail, and compensated accordingly.

 

[Belperpete]

The position seems to be that you've not abandoned the journey unless you've returned to the point of origin, and the tickets are otherwise considered used and non-refundable.

So once he has returned to his point of origin (whenever that might be, as it may not be possible to return the same day), he can then claim that the journey was abandoned?

I still say that once the OP has abandoned his railway journey, what he then chooses to do is no business of the TOC, and he has no obligation to tell them. Unless of course he wants to claim the costs.

You would hope that in such a situation a TOC would both pay the delay compensation and reimburse the bus fare, but unfortunately that may not happen if the TOC decides to only pay what it is obliged to.

 

[yorkie]

So once he has returned to his point of origin (whenever that might be, as it may not be possible to return the same day), he can then claim that the journey was abandoned?

If you make no use of the tickets and immediately return to the origin, the retailer is deemed liable; this is very unfair in my opinion.

If you abandon but make alternative arrangements, that is what this thread is about, and arguably the customer should be entitled to Delay Repay, but officially it seems they aren't, but...

I still say that once the OP has abandoned his railway journey, what he then chooses to do is no business of the TOC, and he has no obligation to tell them. Unless of course he wants to claim the costs.

...I agree with this on a moral perspective; the TOC should be simply paying Delay Repay compensation as if the customer had completed the journey by train.

You would hope that in such a situation a TOC would both pay the delay compensation and reimburse the bus fare, but unfortunately that may not happen if the TOC decides to only pay what it is obliged to.

The bus fare must be reimbursed if the TOC is advising people get the bus, but if people just choose to get a bus, and the TOC was prepared to (eventually) convey them, it is difficult to argue the TOC must pay for that reimbursement. However, they might issue this, as a goodwill gesture, but it would require manual intervention (not really worth it for £2).

The last time I got a bus in such circumstances, I did so before anyone was advised to do so; from what I heard, it sounds like people may have later been advised to do this. However, as I got 100% Delay Repay I didn't bother trying to claim £2 as this would not have been worth anyone's time, and it wasn't clear I'd even be entitled to it anyway.

 

[Deerfold]

If you make no use of the tickets and immediately return to the origin, the retailer is deemed liable; this is very unfair in my opinion.

If you abandon but make alternative arrangements, that is what this thread is about, and arguably the customer should be entitled to Delay Repay, but officially it seems they aren't, but...

...I agree with this on a moral perspective; the TOC should be simply paying Delay Repay compensation as if the customer had completed the journey by train.

The bus fare must be reimbursed if the TOC is advising people get the bus, but if people just choose to get a bus, and the TOC was prepared to (eventually) convey them, it is difficult to argue the TOC must pay for that reimbursement. However, they might issue this, as a goodwill gesture, but it would require manual intervention (not really worth it for £2).

The last time I got a bus in such circumstances, I did so before anyone was advised to do so; from what I heard, it sounds like people may have later been advised to do this. However, as I got 100% Delay Repay I didn't bother trying to claim £2 as this would not have been worth anyone's time, and it wasn't clear I'd even be entitled to it anyway.

This wasn't a bus, it was a Flixbus coach, costing more than the train fare, as per my OP.

 

[yorkie]

This wasn't a bus, it was a Flixbus coach, costing more than the train fare, as per my OP.

If you acted immediately and unilaterally, I am not really sure that you can definitively say Avanti are liable for this (if you are disagreeing with me).

Alternatively if you arrived at Carlisle, and approached Avanti, and it was made clear that the delay would be extensive (and more than 60 minutes) and that there was no way Avanti would re-route anyone, then you could argue that you could be entitled to organise your own re-routeing and bill Avanti accordingly.

I think the best thing to do, if you want compensation for the coach to be considered, is to write to Avanti, explain what happened and see what they come up with, in terms of a discretionary payment.

Alternatively, the least hassle option is to just put in a DR claim as if you completed the journey; this would likely get you 100% Delay Repay without any hassle, but without any further compensation for the road transport.

Whatever you do, don't seek a refund from the retailer as that isn't the correct course and if you did get a refund then clearly Avanti could not be expected to pay any discretionary payments for alternative transport.

 

[mangyiscute]

The other interesting thing to consider is that since many operators offer auto delay repay on advance tickets now, what if you abandon the journey halfway and they get auto delay repay for the ticket - I'm sure most people would just accept this as their compensation and move on.
Ultimately, because delay repay is so much easier to get than most over forms of repayment, the simplest option is often to just claim delay repay, even if it is incorrect.

 

[Deerfold]

If you acted immediately and unilaterally, I am not really sure that you can definitively say Avanti are liable for this (if you are disagreeing with me).

Alternatively if you arrived at Carlisle, and approached Avanti, and it was made clear that the delay would be extensive (and more than 60 minutes) and that there was no way Avanti would re-route anyone, then you could argue that you could be entitled to organise your own re-routeing and bill Avanti accordingly.

I think the best thing to do, if you want compensation for the coach to be considered, is to write to Avanti, explain what happened and see what they come up with, in terms of a discretionary payment.

Alternatively, the least hassle option is to just put in a DR claim as if you completed the journey; this would likely get you 100% Delay Repay without any hassle, but without any further compensation for the road transport.

Whatever you do, don't seek a refund from the retailer as that isn't the correct course and if you did get a refund then clearly Avanti could not be expected to pay any discretionary payments for alternative transport.

I'm disagreeing that the Flixbus fare was £2.

I would not have been able to book the Flixbus if I'd waited until I got to Carlisle and spoken to staff. They have to be booked 15 minutes before the departure. We only arrived 23 minutes before its departure. There were a lot of people at Carlisle and I can't see having time to cross the station, wait in a queue and speak to staff and then book a seat in 8 minutes. There were no obvious area where people were being directed to other traffic.

I'll write to them. I wasn't expecting a refund on the Flixbus fare bus disappointed that it seemed we were entitled to less than if we'd stayed to be there problem given there was no way we'd be less than an hour late at our destination.

 

[Haywain]

disappointed that it seemed we were entitled to less than if we'd stayed to be there problem given there was no way we'd be less than an hour late at our destination.

The problem is that it is very unclear what you are entitled to.

 

[AdamWW]

The problem is that it is very unclear what you are entitled to.

Isn't it quite clear, i.e. there is no entitlement to anything now under the NRCoT in such circumstances?

Unless you argue that "and you return to your point of origin." doesn't say "immediately" so as long as you go home at the end of your trip you've done that...

I really can't see what's wrong with paying delay repay based on what would have happened if the passenger hadn't taken matters into their own hands (just as I don't see why you should lose your rights to it if you help the railway by waiting for things to settle down after disruption rather than jamming yourself onto the first train that you can).

 

[Haywain]

Isn't it quite clear, i.e. there is no entitlement to anything now under the NRCoT in such circumstances?

No. As an absolute minimum, the OP is entitled to recover the difference between the fare paid and the fare for the element of the overall journey that has been completed, potentially subject to an administration fee of £5. This is covered in conditions 29.1 and 29.2 because, in this case the OP has made a choice not to complete the journey.

I do not agree with that being the appropriate solution, but that is the one aspect that is clear.

 

[AdamWW]

No. As an absolute minimum, the OP is entitled to recover the difference between the fare paid and the fare for the element of the overall journey that has been completed, potentially subject to an administration fee of £5. This is covered in conditions 29.1 and 29.2 because, in this case the OP has made a choice not to complete the journey.

I do not agree with that being the appropriate solution, but that is the one aspect that is clear.

Actually looking at that, it does seem to be unclear what the entitlement is.

29.2 says:

29.2 ..... If a delay or cancellation on any leg of your journey is the reason you could not complete your journey, you are entitled to a full refund on any Tickets held for that journey under Condition 30.1.

Which seems to rather misrepresent 30.1, because 30.1 (now) says that this is only true if you go back to the start.

Maybe whoever updated it failed to notice that changing 30.1 meant that 29.2 should also be changed?

I have no idea what the legal status of a contract is in a case like this.

 

[RGM654]

Could the OP pretend that he caught to Scotrail train and arrived in Glasgow at 16:40?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Could the OP pretend that he caught to Scotrail train and arrived in Glasgow at 16:40?

Never a good idea, IMHO, to claim that you travelled on a train that you didn't actually travel on, in order to claim 'Delay Repay'.