Advice on selecting wrong rail card

[redmugoftea]

My son (18) travelling today from Sheffield on Northern Rail.

Ticket purchased online. But instead of selecting the South Yorkshire Zoom 16-18 his fat fingers selected the South Yorkshire 16-17 . He did not notice as the price was right as he regularly uses the route.

Ticket inspector checked ticket and demanded the railcard . He showed his 16-18 and told it it was wrong. The inspector would not accept this as an error . He offered to rebuy the ticket, but this was not accepted . He showed that the price was the same, but not accepted. The jobsworth inspector took all his details but would not say why. The fare is 2.45 in total .

What is going to happen? Is there a penalty fare and is there an appeal that would succeed.

Son is 18, having mental health issues and is absolutely distraught at the jobsworth inspector approach.

Edit: Got the 16-18 South Yorkshire travel pass. Selected 16-17 saver for some reason . I told you the wrong thing first !

 

[Bletchleyite]

Most probably he will have to pay an out of court settlement of between £100-150 plus the cost of unpaid fares at the Anytime (Day) Single rate for each journey on which he has selected the wrong one if there is more than one.

Feel free to post the letter here when received for more specific advice (be sure to redact any personal details).

If the discount actually is the same this is rather nonsensical, though.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Is a "Zoom Beyond 18-21 Travel Pass" (if that's what the OP's son has) actually valid for discounted rail travel? Thought it was just for buses/trams in South Yorkshire?

 

[swt_passenger]

What is going to happen? Is there a penalty fare and is there an appeal that would succeed.

A penalty fare won’t now be issued retrospectively, unfortunately this incident has gone beyond that option.

 

[redmugoftea]

Is a "Zoom Beyond 18-21 Travel Pass" (if that's what the OP's son has) actually valid for discounted rail travel? Thought it was just for buses/trams in South Yorkshire?

It’s valid for local rail travel too. His friend had the same card and was fine.

 

[SuspectUsual]

It’s valid for local rail travel too. His friend had the same card and was fine.

Here's the thing

Looking at the Travel South Yorkshire website, the 16-18 one IS valid on trains; the 18-21 one ISN'T

Bus pass 18-21 - Travel South Yorkshire

Apply for your 18-21 bus pass for Barnsley, Doncaster, Rotherham and Sheffield.

www.travelsouthyorkshire.com

Radware Captcha Page

(Look in the "benefits" section)

So, based on that, it isn't just a mistake of selecting the wrong one of two valid railcards, it looks (to the inspector) like having a railcard that isn't valid on the train and selecting a different one that is

 

[furlong]

Something doesn't add up here.

Has he perhaps just got the 18-21 one and not realised he should still be using the 16-18 one until the end of July as the new one isn't valid on the trains?

 

[redmugoftea]

I checked with him on cards :

Got the 16-18 South Yorkshire travel pass. Selected 16-17 saver for some reason

 

[jamiearmley]

May I ask, what was the exact journey he was making?

 

[furlong]

So that should make it a lot easier to resolve than what was originally described.

Under the Code of Practice that applies, he will have been given some paperwork at the time(*). What does it say?

Assuming he bought the ticket BEFORE he got on the train (rather than just when he saw the inspector approaching) and assuming everything else about the ticket and railcard was valid, then given the code of practice that applies and other statements Northern has recently made, the inspector's actions are certainly a surprise. In theory he should just now get a letter acknowledging no further action will be taken once different staff have checked out the situation. In practice, he might get a nastier letter, but if he responds with a copy of his railcard and explains what happened again that should be the end of the matter.

After making some serious errors of law for which it has apologised (ones which may cost the public purse millions of pounds), Northern is under intense scrutiny at the moment and has put itself on record as being a public prosecutor applying the highest standards, which taking any further action in a case like this seems very unlikely to meet.

(*) Where a passenger’s details are recorded in connection with a travel irregularity but no notice is issued, they will be provided as a minimum with a card stating:
- The name of the train company taking the details
- Website and telephone contact details to allow the passenger to access the TOC’s revenue protection policy (including the action that may be taken subsequently, and their rights and obligations in connection with this)

 

[redmugoftea]

So that should make it a lot easier to resolve than what was originally described.

Under the Code of Practice that applies, he will have been given some paperwork at the time(*). What does it say?

Assuming he bought the ticket BEFORE he got on the train (rather than just when he saw the inspector approaching) and assuming everything else about the ticket and railcard was valid, then given the code of practice that applies and other statements Northern has recently made, the inspector's actions are certainly a surprise. In theory he should just now get a letter acknowledging no further action will be taken once different staff have checked out the situation. In practice, he might get a nastier letter, but if he responds with a copy of his railcard and explains what happened again that should be the end of the matter.

After making some serious errors of law for which it has apologised (ones which may cost the public purse millions of pounds), Northern is under intense scrutiny at the moment and has put itself on record as being a public prosecutor applying the highest standards, which taking any further action in a case like this seems very unlikely to meet.

(*) Where a passenger’s details are recorded in connection with a travel irregularity but no notice is issued, they will be provided as a minimum with a card stating:
- The name of the train company taking the details
- Website and telephone contact details to allow the passenger to access the TOC’s revenue protection policy (including the action that may be taken subsequently, and their rights and obligations in connection with this)

Thank you so much for this. They didn’t provide anything, no paperwork or notice and no card.

I assume this means that there is NFA, or worse case they write and tell him not to do it again.

He was so scared. The difference between 16-17 card vs 16-18 card is non existent and easy to get wrong .

I will post if there is any outcome in the next few weeks.

 

[Haywain]

The difference between 16-17 card vs 16-18 card is non existent and easy to get wrong .

As others have indicated above, there does appear to be a difference.

 

[Snow1964]

There is another possibility, the Inspector wasn't sure, took details, but will subsequently choose to look up the exact rules (bit later when not in front of a customer).

If the inspector then realises the 16-18 card (until end July) is different to non-valid 18-21 card, then they might not even pass on details (as it makes them look silly if they got rules wrong). However this will be slightly frustrating for the customer as they won't know it has been dropped.

This is a quite messy card because the rules of expiry depend on birthday date, for 11 months of birthdays it is a specific 31st July, or for August birthdays the day before 18th birthday. (Obviously for recent event in last few weeks, and a person recently 18 the 31st July rule must apply)

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Believe the (South Yorkshire) 'Zoom 16-18 Travel Pass' gives 50% off local Northern train fares for travel anytime, anywhere within South Yorkshire. This applies to Anytime Day Single / Return or Off-Peak Day Single / Return fares. The 16-17 Saver card, however, gets you 50% off most rail fares nationally (including advances) every day of the year with no time restrictions and no minimum fare and allows travel across the National Rail network, except on ScotRail and Caledonian Sleeper services.

If the OP's journey was indeed a local one from Sheffield, and travelling with Northern, likely the discount obtained would have been exactly the same (= 50%).

 

[SuspectUsual]

Thank you so much for this. They didn’t provide anything, no paperwork or notice and no card.

I assume this means that there is NFA, or worse case they write and tell him not to do it again.

He was so scared. The difference between 16-17 card vs 16-18 card is non existent and easy to get wrong .

I will post if there is any outcome in the next few weeks.

If you haven’t already, it might be worth getting him to write down everything he can remember - times, locations, exact words used if possible etc etc, just in case several weeks down the line a letter arrives asking questions. It may well not come to that, but a hazy memory in a couple of months time could mean misrepresenting what happened and causing more problems

 

[yorkie]

My son (18) travelling today from Sheffield on Northern Rail.

Ticket purchased online. But instead of selecting the South Yorkshire Zoom 16-18 his fat fingers selected the South Yorkshire 16-17 . He did not notice as the price was right as he regularly uses the route.

Ticket inspector checked ticket and demanded the railcard . He showed his 16-18 and told it it was wrong. The inspector would not accept this as an error . He offered to rebuy the ticket, but this was not accepted . He showed that the price was the same, but not accepted. The jobsworth inspector took all his details but would not say why. The fare is 2.45 in total .

What is going to happen? Is there a penalty fare and is there an appeal that would succeed.

Son is 18, having mental health issues and is absolutely distraught at the jobsworth inspector approach.

Edit: Got the 16-18 South Yorkshire travel pass. Selected 16-17 saver for some reason . I told you the wrong thing first !

Just to let you know, the incident was witnessed by someone who I know, and unfortunately there was a bit more to the incident than has been posted.

Your son was unable to produce any form of railcard or other discount authority.

You are right that his friend had a valid 16-18 zoom pass for his discounted fare, but this isn't relevant to your son's situation, as your son was unable to form any form of discount card, let alone the correct one for the ticket held.

If you wish for the matter to go to court, then the footage from the body worn camera could be used; you may want to ask your son if the footage would be helpful to your son, or if it might actually be incriminating.

An observer said that the discussion was calm and professional, however your son did escalate matters, so the member of staff had to withdraw.

If you want my advice, it would be to apologise to Northern, and offer to pay any amount to settle the matter out of court.

Please note that I am impartial and not in any way connected to Northern; there have been plenty of other occasions when customers have been mistreated by Northern, and I have backed up the customer in those cases.

 

[redmugoftea]

Just to let you know, the incident was witnessed by someone who I know, and unfortunately there was a bit more to the incident than has been posted.

Your son was unable to produce any form of railcard or other discount authority.

You are right that his friend had a valid 16-18 zoom pass for his discounted fare, but this isn't relevant to your son's situation, as your son was unable to form any form of discount card, let alone the correct one for the ticket held.

If you wish for the matter to go to court, then the footage from the body worn camera could be used; you may want to ask your son if the footage would be helpful to your son, or if it might actually be incriminating.

An observer said that the discussion was calm and professional, however your son did escalate matters, so the member of staff had to withdraw.

If you want my advice, it would be to apologise to Northern, and offer to pay any amount to settle the matter out of court.

Please note that I am impartial and not in any way connected to Northern; there have been plenty of other occasions when customers have been mistreated by Northern, and I have backed up the customer in those cases.

Thank you for this.

We have received a letter through and responding appropriately.

 

[John R]

Thank you for this.

We have received a letter through and responding appropriately.

Its obviously up to you whether you share a draft here before sending, but noting that your original description included words such as “jobsworth”, and then the comments above by @yorkie which indicate a somewhat different interaction took place, I’d suggest that in contrast you have to be very contrite when responding if you are to achieve the desired outcome.

 

[redmugoftea]

My son 18 has just received a fixed penalty of £100 + fare from Northern Rail. The circumstances of this seem somewhat unfair.

1. He travelled on a train on 24 July. He selected the wrong rail card, selecting South Yorkshire 16-17 rather than South Yorkshire 16-18; this makes no difference to the fare. He was flustered at the time because he struggled to find his rail card, and due to having put it in the wrong pocket. He stopped looking when the inspector said he had selected the wrong card. The inspector took his details, but then explained how to select the right card and he took it to mean that the inspector had accepted his explanation. The fare was £2.75 discounted, but they are claiming £5 for the fare undiscounted.

So he had purchased a ticket, for the right amount, albeit selected the wrong rail card. However, the inspector didn't pursue needing to see the 16-18 card and my son took this as being ok.

He even offered at the time to repurchase the right ticket. But the inspector wouldn't allow this.

2. They sent him a letter dated 6 August asking for explanation within 14 days. We received this on 22 August as we had been away on a 2 week family holiday. We replied immediately on 22nd August.

We had an auto reply stating it can take up to 10 days to review. Seems rather excessive given their demanding timescales!

3. We tried to ring; could not find the right option on their phone systems.

4. They sent him him a fixed penalty on 21st August, which arrived 27th August, 6 days after the date, demanding payment of the fixed penalty within 14 days of the date of their letter! So clearly they do not post straight away and also they use 2nd class.

We dont want to escalate costs and because of mental health issues, we don't want to let this get worse. We dont understand why they went to a fixed penalty which is double the cost of a penalty fare notice (i.e. not 50% discount), nor do we understand why there is no right to appeal on this. It seems to be somewhat bully boy tactic, and we can not see what legal basis that are trying on this, other than 'pay up or we'll make your life hell'.

Interestingly, their 10 days to reply will mean we are out of time to pay this fixed penalty.

Should we just pay the amount ? If we do so, can we then complain and get it fully refunded?

 

[Titfield]

Please can you upload the correspondence received obscuring any names, addresses, reference numbers etc.

Thank you.

 

[redmugoftea]

Here is the fixed penalty notice

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Aug 2024 ==

Here is the initial letter

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Aug 2024 ==

Please can you upload the correspondence received obscuring any names, addresses, reference numbers etc.

Thank you.

Thanks. I’ve just done this. Think I’ve obscured confidential parts enough. Let me know if this isn’t the case.

 

[methecooldude]

1. He travelled on a train on 24 July. He selected the wrong rail card, selecting South Yorkshire 16-17 rather than South Yorkshire 16-18; this makes no difference to the fare. He was flustered at the time because he struggled to find his rail card, and due to having put it in the wrong pocket. He stopped looking when the inspector said he had selected the wrong card. The inspector took his details, but then explained how to select the right card and he took it to mean that the inspector had accepted his explanation. The fare was £2.75 discounted, but they are claiming £5 for the fare undiscounted.

So he had purchased a ticket, for the right amount, albeit selected the wrong rail card. However, the inspector didn't pursue needing to see the 16-18 card and my son took this as being ok.

He even offered at the time to repurchase the right ticket. But the inspector wouldn't allow this.

Reading this, and the previous reply from @yorkie I'm still doubting this whole story

 

[WesternLancer]

My son 18 has just received a fixed penalty of £100 + fare from Northern Rail. The circumstances of this seem somewhat unfair.

1. He travelled on a train on 24 July. He selected the wrong rail card, selecting South Yorkshire 16-17 rather than South Yorkshire 16-18; this makes no difference to the fare. He was flustered at the time because he struggled to find his rail card, and due to having put it in the wrong pocket. He stopped looking when the inspector said he had selected the wrong card. The inspector took his details, but then explained how to select the right card and he took it to mean that the inspector had accepted his explanation. The fare was £2.75 discounted, but they are claiming £5 for the fare undiscounted.

So he had purchased a ticket, for the right amount, albeit selected the wrong rail card. However, the inspector didn't pursue needing to see the 16-18 card and my son took this as being ok.

He even offered at the time to repurchase the right ticket. But the inspector wouldn't allow this.

2. They sent him a letter dated 6 August asking for explanation within 14 days. We received this on 22 August as we had been away on a 2 week family holiday. We replied immediately on 22nd August.

We had an auto reply stating it can take up to 10 days to review. Seems rather excessive given their demanding timescales!

3. We tried to ring; could not find the right option on their phone systems.

4. They sent him him a fixed penalty on 21st August, which arrived 27th August, 6 days after the date, demanding payment of the fixed penalty within 14 days of the date of their letter! So clearly they do not post straight away and also they use 2nd class.

We dont want to escalate costs and because of mental health issues, we don't want to let this get worse. We dont understand why they went to a fixed penalty which is double the cost of a penalty fare notice (i.e. not 50% discount), nor do we understand why there is no right to appeal on this. It seems to be somewhat bully boy tactic, and we can not see what legal basis that are trying on this, other than 'pay up or we'll make your life hell'.

Interestingly, their 10 days to reply will mean we are out of time to pay this fixed penalty.

Should we just pay the amount ? If we do so, can we then complain and get it fully refunded?

There is no right to Appeal because if you do not pay they will proceed to court and prosecute you (where you can appeal to the magistrates that you are not guilty but that is high risk and likely to end up costing more unless your son can prove his ticket was valid.

They are not obliged to issue penalty fares (and some staff not authorised to do so anyway) which do have an Appeals process.

You might have to accept that you should pay however unfair that seems. I am not sure that a complaint afterwards would secure a refund.

The wider issues you raise about this are probably ones for you to pursue with your MP. The government operates Northern Trains.

 

[yorkie]

If you want my advice, here it is:

Should we just pay the amount ?

Yes; I suggest you pay the full amount promptly.

If we do so, can we then complain and get it fully refunded?

I advise against complaining.

It could have been worse, under the circumstances; I've heard of people being prosecuted over less.

 

[redmugoftea]

Thanks for all the replies. Points taken on board.

I’ll post any updates. But will just chalk it up to experience .