nonethewiser
Member
I have been following this forum for about a year and am very interested in the world of railway fares and revenue protection. I would like to contribute more on this forum as I feel I have now got an understanding of common problems people face.
Having said that there's always more to learn and I thought the best way to learn particularly about the prosecutions element and court process, to observe a railway prosecutions hearing in the public gallery of the magistrates court as a public observer.
I have observed before in magistrates hearings involving the CPS and TFL at lavender hill magistrates court fairly recently. I have also observed the king's Bench Division in the RCJ. The crown court including the old bailey and to my surprise even the Court of Protection even "let me in!"
The last few weeks I've been trying to build a picture of where northern might be prosecuting on a given day by tralling through courtserve listings to look for clues that northern (or any other toc) might be prosecuting
I have found not many patterns to the days to which they prosecute on but have found northern to appear at magistrates courts such as Kikrlees, Bradford, Burnley, Manchester (the big one in the city centre), and Preston.
Although I am basing this on an assumption. The URN of the cases beginning NTLDTIR (ticket irregularity report) or NTLTDPFN (penalty fare) or NTLTDUFN (unpaid fare). Its also interesting to note most of these cases, if not all, end in SJP
I assumed these cases were initially SJP cases but either the defence pleaded not guilty or they wanted to offer some mitigation.
When the lists came up for today I found Newcastle had a very large volume of cases being prosecuted with the URN code PFN. Due to the volume, location and URN code I assumed these would be northern or a toc. There was no SJP at the end so I thought they would be in open court.
Anyway on arrival after a 2hr train journey I was told by an usher of a different court that the court I am looking for is the SJP court. They also said that it's likely it's northern but couldn't give me a definitive answer as there are no ushers in SJP hearings.
I was told public can't observe SJP hearings. However when I searched online I got mixed messages. Some said definitely not, some said as a principle of open justice I should be allowed to observe provided it doesn't interfere with justice. My personal view (whether this is actually the case is a different story of which if like to find out) is that in the interests of open justice SJP hearings should be heard in open court. Ie in a physical courtroom with a la and 1 mag and public should be allowed to sit in the public gallery under the supervision of either security or an usher.
At lavender hill where tfl prosecute you have to sit in a booth with glass panels like the dock the defendant sits in. This i believe should be sufficient to mitigate any disturbance.
If any forum members have more insight as to what the situation is with open justice in SJP hearings I would be grateful!
Anyway The main point I wanted to get to! I was told by court staff that I could email the court with a request for the outcomes of the cases heard today.
I will post my draft email in a seperate post to view and tweak as members see fit.
I particularly wanted to view this Newcastle batch as IF it was northern prosecuting and PFN stood for what I think it did then I wanted to see the circumstances surrounding the prosecution especially as we have seen northern recently taking the recent Westminster ruling re SE Trains as a green light to continue prosecutions after PFNs are rejected. I note there is another forum for discussion on that topic.
I'm also interested in requesting SJP outcomes from the other courts with the URN NTLTDUFN or NTLTDPFN
Any advice or thoughts are welcome!
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Dear Newcastle Magistrates' Court,
I am writing to request access to the register and outcomes of Single Justice Procedure cases heard on 1st July. I understand these hearings are not open to the public, but that outcomes can be shared under the principle of open justice.
Please could you provide the SJP register and any available outcomes for the date mentioned above? If there are any specific procedures I should follow to access this information, I would be grateful for your guidance.
Kind regards,
My Name
Would this be the best address to send to:
NO-Listings@Justice.gov.uk
Or there is:
NorthumbriaMagistrates@justice.gov.uk
And;
contactcrime@justice.gov.uk
Having said that there's always more to learn and I thought the best way to learn particularly about the prosecutions element and court process, to observe a railway prosecutions hearing in the public gallery of the magistrates court as a public observer.
I have observed before in magistrates hearings involving the CPS and TFL at lavender hill magistrates court fairly recently. I have also observed the king's Bench Division in the RCJ. The crown court including the old bailey and to my surprise even the Court of Protection even "let me in!"
The last few weeks I've been trying to build a picture of where northern might be prosecuting on a given day by tralling through courtserve listings to look for clues that northern (or any other toc) might be prosecuting
I have found not many patterns to the days to which they prosecute on but have found northern to appear at magistrates courts such as Kikrlees, Bradford, Burnley, Manchester (the big one in the city centre), and Preston.
Although I am basing this on an assumption. The URN of the cases beginning NTLDTIR (ticket irregularity report) or NTLTDPFN (penalty fare) or NTLTDUFN (unpaid fare). Its also interesting to note most of these cases, if not all, end in SJP
I assumed these cases were initially SJP cases but either the defence pleaded not guilty or they wanted to offer some mitigation.
When the lists came up for today I found Newcastle had a very large volume of cases being prosecuted with the URN code PFN. Due to the volume, location and URN code I assumed these would be northern or a toc. There was no SJP at the end so I thought they would be in open court.
Anyway on arrival after a 2hr train journey I was told by an usher of a different court that the court I am looking for is the SJP court. They also said that it's likely it's northern but couldn't give me a definitive answer as there are no ushers in SJP hearings.
I was told public can't observe SJP hearings. However when I searched online I got mixed messages. Some said definitely not, some said as a principle of open justice I should be allowed to observe provided it doesn't interfere with justice. My personal view (whether this is actually the case is a different story of which if like to find out) is that in the interests of open justice SJP hearings should be heard in open court. Ie in a physical courtroom with a la and 1 mag and public should be allowed to sit in the public gallery under the supervision of either security or an usher.
At lavender hill where tfl prosecute you have to sit in a booth with glass panels like the dock the defendant sits in. This i believe should be sufficient to mitigate any disturbance.
If any forum members have more insight as to what the situation is with open justice in SJP hearings I would be grateful!
Anyway The main point I wanted to get to! I was told by court staff that I could email the court with a request for the outcomes of the cases heard today.
I will post my draft email in a seperate post to view and tweak as members see fit.
I particularly wanted to view this Newcastle batch as IF it was northern prosecuting and PFN stood for what I think it did then I wanted to see the circumstances surrounding the prosecution especially as we have seen northern recently taking the recent Westminster ruling re SE Trains as a green light to continue prosecutions after PFNs are rejected. I note there is another forum for discussion on that topic.
I'm also interested in requesting SJP outcomes from the other courts with the URN NTLTDUFN or NTLTDPFN
Any advice or thoughts are welcome!
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Dear Newcastle Magistrates' Court,
I am writing to request access to the register and outcomes of Single Justice Procedure cases heard on 1st July. I understand these hearings are not open to the public, but that outcomes can be shared under the principle of open justice.
Please could you provide the SJP register and any available outcomes for the date mentioned above? If there are any specific procedures I should follow to access this information, I would be grateful for your guidance.
Kind regards,
My Name
Would this be the best address to send to:
NO-Listings@Justice.gov.uk
Or there is:
NorthumbriaMagistrates@justice.gov.uk
And;
contactcrime@justice.gov.uk
Last edited:
