Advice on correct refund procedure

[james-martin]

Hi,

My parents have a set of unused rail tickets from Inverness to Nottingham for which I believe they should be able to get a full refund. However it has become most unclear as to how the refund should be processed correctly.

The tickets in question were purchased after I discovered my parents appeared to only have the amended 'excess' portions of their Advance First tickets. As this was several days before the journey and the train was busy (or at least there were no advance purchase tickets left) and they could not find the previous tickets that were being excessed I suggested that it would be best for them to purchase tickets beforehand to ensure they had seat reservations in standard class (the party of 3 are all 60+ and I had already left Inverness days beforehand).

Anyway, on the day of departure they found the envelope with the rest of the tickets in just before leaving the hotel. Therefore they only presented their Advance first tickets on board. This leaves 3 unused Standard Off-Peak singles for a refund. Now my understanding was that you had to process the refund with the operator with whom you made the purchase. They did not have time to do this due to the early departure time from Inverness and the fixed nature of Advance tickets. This meant that they were not able to process this until they returned home to Andover a few days later when they could contact Scotrail. I've since realised that it appears my understanding was incorrect and that Booking offices are a single retailer, and then each ToCs telesales and website is another separate retailer.

Now my understanding is that the tickets are refundable as long as they are sent within 28 days and all money should be refunded minus the £10 admin fee. However, when I rang (on my parents behalf) Scotrail asking how this should be processed to ensure that I had the right understanding but expecting the result to be just an address to send in a refund application they stated the following:
Firstly that no refund could be given unless you processed it on the day before travel. I pushed them on this saying I had processed refunds with other operators before days later on walk-up single tickets.
Secondly, they claimed that was down to other operators terms and conditions – blatantly a lie as all walk-up tickets have to have the same conditions particularly in the case of a booking office. They went away and talked to their manager (apparently).
Thirdly, they said that they would only be able to give a refund on Anytime tickets anyway.
Finally, they stated that it was only at Inverness that could process any refund. This clearly is not realistic given Inverness was a holiday destination.

Anyway, after some digging on google I found the information indicating the correct refund stream was via any ticket office. So my parents went to their local ticket office in Andover to get the refund processed. Again they were told you cannot do it for various reasons and that they must speak to Scotrail. When Scotrail were approached again they claimed they might process it but that it would only be travel vouchers.

Now please correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that the only terms and conditions that apply are the NRCoC and that they state that a refund is due. It seems this should be in 'cash' all be it a card payment as all transactions should be returned in the same form as payment as originally made. Therefore who is not acting as they should in this instance in terms of their advice, actions and in-actions?

Please can you advise me on the defined correct procedure (the documents suggest there is always only one correct route) to pursue a refund so that my parents can take the appropriate action and I can hassle the appropriate ToC if they do not act correctly.

Thanks in advance for your help,

James.

 

[yorkie]

Please can you advise me on the defined correct procedure...

Can you post, in list format, details of which tickets were purchased, both unused and used, including the ticket type, price on the ticket, etc.

Edit: no need now, I've read through it all, and basically the question is:

Can unused Off Peak single tickets from Inverness to London, purchased from Inverness, be refunded after travel, if so what is the procedure?

The answer is yes, they can. Scotrail will have to issue the refund, but a station can complete a refund form for you and forward it to them.

Scotrail Customer Services are notoriously bad (as is a particular person in the ticket office at Inverness).

Good luck dealing with this awful company - you'll need it!

As for Andover ticket office, that's SWT. While there are some great ticket clerks at SWT, the majority in my experience are lacking in knowledge. So good luck with them too!

This is the rail industry - where shocking customer service is to be expected!

 

[maniacmartin]

So, to summarise:

1. They bought Advance tickets
2. The Advance tickets were lost and replacement Off-Peak walkup tickets were bought
3. The Advance tickets were found, and they travelled on these, leaving the walkup tickets unused

The NRCoC section 26(c) contains your rights:

26. Refunds on tickets that have not been used.
If you decide not to use a ticket (other than a Season Ticket - see Condition 36) to make all or part of your intended journey, then:
[...]
(c) if paragraphs (a) and (b) do not apply and the ticket has been bought from a Train Company’s ticket office (or a self-service machine) and you return your ticket at any Train Company’s ticket office no later than 28 days after the expiry of the ticket’s validity, you will receive a refund (subject to the notes below);
[...]

(ii) In the case of a refund made under (c), (d), or (e) above, you may have to pay a reasonable administrative charge (not exceeding £10). In such cases, where the administrative charge exceeds the refund you would have been entitled to, no refund will be payable.

(iii) Your right to receive a refund under (c), (d) and (e) above of all or part of the price paid may be restricted in the case of some types of reduced and discounted fare tickets, for example, those with an advance purchase requirement. These rights will be made clear to you when you buy your ticket.

(iv) In the case of a refund under (c), (d), or (e) above, you will not receive an immediate refund but your refund application will be processed as soon as reasonably practicable and the refund paid within one month of receipt of the application

Scotrail should refund you (minus admin fees) for the unused tickets. I suggest you contact them again and remind them of their obligations under NRCoC section 26, and ask them for an address to post the tickets to.

 

[sheff1]

Now please correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that the only terms and conditions that apply are the NRCoC and that they state that a refund is due. It seems this should be in 'cash' all be it a card payment as all transactions should be returned in the same form as payment as originally made. Therefore who is not acting as they should in this instance in terms of their advice, actions and in-actions?

Please can you advise me on the defined correct procedure ...

As you say, the correct procedure is as per the NRCoC. Condition 26 is the one for refunds. For Off Peak walk up tickets purchased by card at a station, 26(c) is the relevant part of the condition. Notes (ii) & (iv) will be relevant as well.

The Method of Refund is Condition 27 and, with a card payment, is a credit to the account.

 

[bb21]

The local station should accept the refund application, and forward them to ScotRail.

ScotRail employees were talking bull over the phone, and so was the clerk at Andover(?).

 

[james-martin]

Thank you everyone for your replies. I am glad I am not off my rocker!

What worries me is whether the rail industry in general is trying to change rules as in some sense the same line was being stated both in Andover and via telesales. I think in cases I feel it even a bit abusive of older people to not just be straight and tell the truth. The only thing that strikes me as odd is the way there seems to be some synchronisation and whether finances are on a downward spiral in the rail industry generating a poor attitude to refunds. The trouble is that it doesn't take many bad experiences to cause people to just go with another mode of transport or give up all together in their older years. A few hundred pound gain in the short term and an annual loss in the longer term doesn't sound good for shareholders as an investment opportunity.

I must say I've generally found customer services quite good in the ToCs I deal with, though you do of course get the odd person who is not. Some times they are clearly people who are new to the job, some who are not bothered etc. However, I've found enough people that are either helpful and know to ask their manager, or who just fully know what they are talking about to feel pretty positive. That's for both a mixture of assisted travel bookings and some more tricky Routing and ticketing type questions. There's always the chance I've been abnormally fortunate in the people I talk to on the phone and at stations but I don't want to be too down on people without good reason.

Right on with the refund application...

Cheers,

James.

 

[bb21]

I think you have done some excellent research on the subject, which the majority of passengers would not have bothered with in your situation, and most of things you said in the first post is spot on too. Good luck and I hope the refund does not take too long to process.

 

[yorkie]

What worries me is whether the rail industry in general is trying to change rules ...

There are some rules that the rail industry does not like. Anyone who asserts their rights in such circumstances faces a huge struggle in the case of some Train Companies.

The trouble is that it doesn't take many bad experiences to cause people to just go with another mode of transport...

I believe people in the rail industry have discounted this as no concern at all. They may lose some passengers, but business is booming, and the reality is many of us have no choice as there is no suitable alternative. And don't the TOCs know it!

I must say I've generally found customer services quite good in the ToCs I deal with, though you do of course get the odd person who is not

It depends on the TOC, and it may also depend on what the issue is.

For example, TPE and FGW are generally pretty good (though I take issue with some of TPEs policies) while on the other hand, FCC and First Scotrail are a joke and treat customers as criminals or a nuisance.

EC are generally good, but lack flexibility and discretion (e.g. wanting to charge £10 admin fees when their website wouldn't let someone book the seat of their choice, and also charging £10 admin fees to correct errors that a competent ticket office would just resolve without fuss), another good thing about EC is when one of their ridiculous guards* have gone bonkers causing RPSS to pursue people for absurd reasons, media pressure (or a couple of emails to the right people) will instantly result in the case being dropped.

Some TOCs are much more likely to listen to ATOC than others. e.g. EC do, but Scotrail don't.

Then you have TOCs such as LM, many of their staff lack basic competency, so you have to find out when someone who is competent is on duty, then you get excellent service

(* There is one who is particularly infamous. Many regulars will know exactly who I mean!)

 

[james-martin]

Hi everyone,

Thank you everyone for your help! A couple of weeks ago the refund was processed by Scotrail Apparently they had a backlog.

Cheers,

James.

 

[Haywain]

Hi everyone,

Thank you everyone for your help! A couple of weeks ago the refund was processed by Scotrail Apparently they had a backlog.

Cheers,

James.

If they have had your refund request since September, I find it shocking that it has taken that long to process. If I were you, I'd be inclined to complain about that.

 

[Chew Chew]

If they have had your refund request since September, I find it shocking that it has taken that long to process. If I were you, I'd be inclined to complain about that.

Scotrail have a huge backlog at the moment.

I waited 4 weeks for Delay Repay vouchers from them and the only reason I have them now is because I phoned up to complain after waiting for 3 weeks and they expedited my claim. They added an extra £5 to my refund as way of apology for the time it took.