advice, not sympathy

[jord3008]

hi

i was wondering if you could help

i travel on the train most days for work, between two virgin operated stations, both without barriers, both with ticket offices

yesterday i was caught without a ticket leaving my local station

i had gotten on in a rush (went past the ticket office as i was chaining up my bike that i leave at the station) with the full intention of buying a ticket on the train. the conductor didnt come round asking for tickets, i realise now i should have looked for him but as he always comes round i assumed this journey would be no different

i was stopped by a virgin trains revenue protection agent who took my details and issued me with a card saying i will recieve a letter and possibly a fine or court or worse

i am not looking for sympathy, it was my fault and i am more than willing to take my punishment, its the not knowing what it will be that is killing me.

in your experience how long will it take before i get the letter? what is my punishment likely to be? educated guesses are welcome, as i know all instances are different

it is a first offence, and i did have the means to pay, i didnt purposely avoid paying by hiding or anything, i just didnt seek out an opportunity to pay (which i admit i should have done) the journey i 'avoided' paying costs £4.90

 

[trentside]

As you failed to make use of the opportunities to pay at your origin station (which I assume was a booking office, plus machines) then it's a likely outcome that Virgin will seek to prosecute. There are two types of prosecution, a Byelaw offence and a prosecution under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 (RoRA) - the latter being a recordable offence, thus leaving a criminal record. The one final option is that you received an Unpaid Fares Notice, simply requiring you to contact the operator with the fare due and nothing more - this seems unlikely in this case, given what you've described, but check the form anyway for this information.

The time taken for the train operator to send out a letter varies, but can take several weeks.

In order for us to help you better, can you say whether it was Virgin Trains or Virgin Trains East Coast involved?

 

[jord3008]

I accept I didn't make use of the opportunities at the initial station. And whilst I had means to pay and gladly would have paid on the train, I didn't seek out anybody. I accept they will likely prosecute and to be honest, I deserve it.

The two stations involved are in the north west, Wigan and Warrington

I did not receive and unpaid fairs notice so I assume it'll either one of the first to outcomes you mentioned. Any information on he likely punishments in either scenario would be welcome

Again I'm not looking for sympathy. It's totally my fault. I just like to have an ideas what is coming my way

Thanks again

 

[Mag_seven]

Sounds like Wigan to Warrington to me (normal fare is £4.90) where revenue protection is dire. It will be interesting to see how the revenue/usage figures between the two stations go up if barriers are installed.

 

[bb21]

I think when you respond to the letter, you need to think carefully how you word it.

Some things don't add up in my opinion. You claim that "i realise now i should have looked for him but as he always comes round i assumed this journey would be no different". In my experience, this is quite unusual between Warrington and Wigan unless you note the location of the guard before boarding and actively seek him out. The chance of encountering the guard on this journey randomly is quite low given the length of the train. I would even go so far as to suggest that you knew exactly what you were doing.

Now I am not saying that you are lying, but that is one of the things that immediately aroused suspicion in my mind regarding the truthfulness of your story, and I always prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt.

It may help if you have a stack of old tickets showing your history of purchasing tickets for this journey.

 

[Aldaniti]

I think when you respond to the letter, you need to think carefully how you word it.

Some things don't add up in my opinion. You claim that "i realise now i should have looked for him but as he always comes round i assumed this journey would be no different". In my experience, this is quite unusual between Warrington and Wigan unless you note the location of the guard before boarding and actively seek him out. The chance of encountering the guard on this journey randomly is quite low given the length of the train. I would even go so far as to suggest that you knew exactly what you were doing.

Now I am not saying that you are lying, but that is one of the things that immediately aroused suspicion in my mind regarding the truthfulness of your story, and I always prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt.

It may help if you have a stack of old tickets showing your history of purchasing tickets for this journey.

In 30-odd years of rail travel on this route, I can probably count on one hand the number of times I have seen the guard pass through the train or check tickets between Wigan and Warrington. It is a fare dodgers ideal journey - and said fare dodgers know it. Nice to see that Virgin offer a surprise from time to time.

 

[jord3008]

Hi again

I am sorry if my story doesn't add up but I can assure you it's the truth. I am a natural worrier and wouldn't make a habit of avoiding paying, mainly I case something like this happened.

I am not lying, I get the 6:28am train and the guard does always walk up as the train is so empty. I paid n the train just so I can get an extra 5 minutes in bed to be honest. I usually get a return (I know some guards won't sell returns on the train but on this train they seem to) but yesterday I only got a single (as has happened before but on these occasions I have remembered to get one at the ticket office, I didn't use my bike then. I should of got another single but force of habit just walking through plus as previously stated I had my bike so took it onto the platform to chain up and didn't think I had enough time to go back.

A guard walked up today on the 6:28 but I didn't need to get a ticket off him as I made sure I was early and could get one at the ticket office. As I will do all the time from now on

Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt I can assure you I don't do this regularly, I know some do as I see them, maybe that played a part in me just walking out as everyone else was. Again this is no excuse.

All I want to know is what is the likely outcome for me? A fine? If so how much Court? Prison? Can anyone give me an answer

Thanks

 

[clagmonster]

What has been said assumes that the journey is indeed Wigan - Warrington. However, I can only imagine that it is in this are of Lancashire or in the West Midlands, given that there are going to be very few pairs of Virgin operated stations with a fair that low between them.

I would also say that that area of Lancashire is a well known fare evasion hotspot.

 

[jord3008]

I can assure you I am telling the truth. I am too much of a worrier to regularly avoid paying for tickets.

I am not lying, I get the 6:28am train which always has a guard walking up. He was there today but I made sure I was in the station early to get one from the ticket office. As I will do all the time from now on.

I know plenty of people who avoid paying, I see them. Maybe that played a part in me just following them out and not attempting to pay at my destination station. As I have never seen anyone do that I didn't even realise you could do that, silly as that sounds.

All I am after is some information on what is going to happen to me if that's not too much trouble. What is the most likely outcome in your experience for someone in my position?

 

[gray1404]

I'm surprised to see VT actually having a revenue block. I've never seen one in my life. Just wanted to check it was not another TOC (e.g. Northern) operating on their behalf?

 

[bb21]

No problem. You don't need to convince me or anyone on here, but hopefully you will see that if we have problems with your description of the events, those in the train company's prosecution department will also likely do.

Chances are that you will receive a letter asking you for your version of the events. Be truthful about what happened (and if you are telling the truth then by all means stick with it). If this were your first offence, there is a good possibility that you will be allowed to settle out of court.

As I said before, if you have a stack of old tickets purchased on train previously then it could help backing your story up. I don't normally recommend this course of action but I think in your case it may well have some effects in showing that you were telling the truth.

What conversation took place on the day between you and the Revenue Protection Inspector? Have you paid your outstanding fare yet?

If you end up settling out of court, sums around £100 can be expected. If it proceeded to court, the fines will be higher, up to about £400 depending on the legislation you are prosecuted under, and prison sentence for a first-time offender is extremely unlikely.

 

[Elecman]

I've never had my ticket checked between Preston and Warrington never mind Wigan and Warrington and have never seen a blockade at Warrington either.

 

[island]

I'm surprised to see VT actually having a revenue block. I've never seen one in my life. Just wanted to check it was not another TOC (e.g. Northern) operating on their behalf?

I saw a Virgin revenue block at Wigan North Western once, although it was a footy match day.

 

[bb21]

I have recently witnessed revenue blockades at Wigan North Western. Not a common sight granted. Never seen one at Warrington BQ but I believe Virgin are stepping up efforts around the network.

 

[Elecman]

Was it a virgin blockade at Wigan or a Northern one?

 

[323235]

I have seen several Virgin blockades at Wigan though like Macclesfield I think they probably have a long period without them.

 

[steve a]

I've never had my ticket checked between Preston and Warrington never mind Wigan and Warrington and have never seen a blockade at Warrington either.

I was stopped at Warrington Bank Quay one morning!

I usually travel to Stockport using a season ticket via Warrington Central and Manchester Piccadilly. On that day, the line via Warington Central was closed due to a trespasser. I went to Bank Quay and asked if I was allowed travel from there to Piccadilly, via Earlestown, but was sent on my way...

I'm surprised to see VT actually having a revenue block. I've never seen one in my life. Just wanted to check it was not another TOC (e.g. Northern) operating on their behalf?

They always check tickets at Stockport on Platforms 3 & 4. They have also had at least one blockade in the last few months and it looks like they will have barriers soon.

What has been said assumes that the journey is indeed Wigan - Warrington. However, I can only imagine that it is in this are of Lancashire or in the West Midlands, given that there are going to be very few pairs of Virgin operated stations with a fair that low between them.

I would also say that that area of Lancashire is a well known fare evasion hotspot.

Neither of these stations are in Lancashire....

 

[timbo58]

I had to check that myself as I always though both were in Lancs but:

Wigan NW is in Greater Manchester, and Warrington is in Cheshire.

 

[oversteer]

OP, have you considered purchasing a season ticket? You'd get your extra five minutes in bed then.
If you do a return journey more than 17 days per month it'd work out cheaper.

 

[clagmonster]

Yes, Warrington is in Cheshire. I still see Wigan as Lancashire, always have done, always will.

 

[timbo58]

Yes, Warrington is in Cheshire. I still see Wigan as Lancashire, always have done, always will.

FWIW I agree too if only for fond memories of the casino!

 

[ag51ruk]

I've never had my ticket checked between Preston and Warrington never mind Wigan and Warrington and have never seen a blockade at Warrington either.

Virgin have recruited a number of extra staff as "barrier hosts" at stations getting ticket gates, you will start to see blockades at those and nearby stations more often as they train up the new staff (twice at Crewe in the last week, the new staff don't have uniforms yet so just wearing name badges but accompanied by some experienced people)

 

[Southwest]

If you catch this train regularly why don't you get a weekly/monthly pass? Saves all the aggro on a day to day basis.

 

[OffertonBlue]

jord3008 - I can't help with the likely fine etc but having had a very recent experience of this with Northern Rail (with my daughter). I would say do not wait too long if you do not hear from Virgin. The first we heard was a summons to court. Apparently a letter asking for mitigating circumstances and then a spot fine letter was despatched (but categorically did not arrive at my house).

I would suggest if you don't hear something within 7-10 days, contact Virgin yourself and ask what is happening.

 

[Murray]

In your response emphasis your previous exemplary rail conduct, the impact of a prosecution and an apology to the TOC and its employees. An informal fine is in my view the likely outcome. The notion of going to prison is far fetched. There are sweeping cuts being made to our bulging prison population. Good luck.