advice needed

[stupid101]

I am not looking for sympathy, dissolve blame or looking to avoid punishment for my mistake
I am purely looking for some help and advice of what I should do to make amends,put right however I can and rescue my job.

I am ashamed, embarrassed and appalled by my stupidity and actions.

The decisions I made were completely out of character. I genuinely did not start my journey with the intent of avoiding the fare and I do normally always purchase tickets ahead of travel despite what happened a few weeks back.

I have never avoided paying a fare previously and am of good character. Just stupidity and anxiety and stress got the better of me, most of which I am now thankfully getting sorted.

The account below is for context and hopefully get some sound advice despite probably not being deserving of any.



So what happened?
I was stopped and interviewed by an RPO at Station A for presenting an expired ticket from the previous day.

I intended to make a return journey between Station A and Manchester Piccadilly the prior evening and purchased a return ticket ahead of travel as I always normally would.
The fare is less than £10.....

However I ended up remaining overnight and travelling the following morning.

I am not a regular rail commuter. I was running incredibly late for important meetings and had not planned this journey properly.
I arrived at Manchester Piccadilly already late and saw that a train was due to depart imminently so made for the train on the near platforms.
There was a delay to this service and allied to me actually boarding the wrong train already on the platform which was going to the other end of the country IDIOT.
Upon realising I was on the wrong train I found myself heading for a train destined for Station A on the far platforms.

No excuse for not having purchased a ticket ahead of travel.
I genuinely had expected to pass ticket inspection points where I could buy my ticket and just make the train but I didn't pass RPO's at Piccadilly however I did pass ticket facilities which I could and should have used, big mistake.

Departing Piccadilly I began to stress and become extremely anxious that I didn't have a ticket. Convinced that I was already in trouble for not buying a ticket I panicked and decided that I was gong to present the unused return ticket that was in wallet from the prior day.

Stupid, inexcusable, ridiculous, ill judged, however you want to describe it trust me I already know, I was not thinking straight a fare less than £10, with the means to pay absurd.

I must have stood out a million miles the RPO checked the ticket and said that it was not valid.
My opportunity to explain and maybe the RPO will take kindly and allow me to buy a ticket there and a flea in the ear. WRONG

More stupidity and blind panic and make believe story that I must have thrown away the wrong ticket.
Story quickly broke down under with further questions and quite rightly I am having my details taken and interviewed.

I cooperated with the RPO acknowledged blame for what I had done and whether there was anyway to make good at the time.
I cannot fully recall the statement and answers I provided.
I do remember my explanation was erratic as my decision making had been and omits much of the information above, however from what I have read on this forum mine would be a cut and shut case for prosecution against Byelaws and Railways Regulations

i wanted to make amends at the time but the RPO explained to wait for a letter it may just be a fine, however I am in no doubt it will be much more severe.

The mistakes I made do warrant punishment and it is not my intent to avoid punishment however a criminal record as a result of a prosecution would ruin my career and result in losing my existing job.

Since the event the anxiety about losing my job has been debilitating and have not been able to work.

I want and need to apologise to Northern Rail for my actions and make good to them through penalties, fines cost to date etc.

Northern Rail website advises that many cases can be resolved ahead of the need for seeking prosecution and recommends making contact ASAP.

1. Should I contact them now with apology or wait for the letter/summons?
2. would you recommend legal support when making contact?
3. Are Northern Rail likely to accept settlement without prosecution?
4. What should I expect in terms of fines, penalties etc. ?

Many thanks for any advice if any is forthcoming......

Fear and self-loathing

 

[yorkie]

... it may just be a fine, however I am in no doubt it will be much more severe...

A fine cannot be issued without the matter first going to court.

It may be possible to avoid the matter going to court by reaching an out of court settlement, the amount will vary depending on various factors, but Northern Rail are quite likely to settle for as little as £80, for a first offence.

If a settlement was not possible, and you were found - or pleaded guilty - then it may simply be a fine and no criminal record, or there may be a more hefty fine accompanying criminal record, but that depends on the legislation used.

Northern Rail website advises that many cases can be resolved ahead of the need for seeking prosecution and recommends making contact ASAP.

1. Should I contact them now with apology or wait for the letter/summons?

If their advise is to make contact ASAP, then I would take that advice.

2. would you recommend legal support when making contact?

Not at this stage, and not with Northern, given that an out of court settlement is, in my opinion, likely (unless they have significant concerns and evidence against you)

3. Are Northern Rail likely to accept settlement without prosecution?

In my experience/opinion, yes.

4. What should I expect in terms of fines, penalties etc. ?

As it's Northern, £80 seems fairly standard for them, so is most likely the settlement amount they would suggest.

 

[crehld]

yorkie's advice is sound. I would only add when you write to Northern with your apology make sure your letter is brief, to the point, covers the basic facts of the situation and doesn't waffle too much. I suggest three components: 1. the basic facts of the incident (time, date, place); 2. your apology along with recognition that what you did was wrong (don't go over the top); and 3. an offer to put things right by offering to pay the outstanding fare and any additional costs Northern may have incurred.

If you're comfortable doing so, you can post a draft up here for comment.

Please don't take to heart too much the inevitable posts which will follow from some others, who will take much delight in pointing out your guilt and lack of judgement.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
You might find the draft letter here a good model to follow - obviously changing all the relevant details to fit your case: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2274688&postcount=24

 

[stupid101]

Thanks for the answers and speedy response.

From other threads and my interpretation of the legislation for my situation Northern could easily seek prosecution for the Regulation of Railways Act 1889?

I forgot to mention the RPO retained the ticket I presented so in terms of evidence between my statement and that ticket I doubt they need much more?

Just to clarify I have not had any correspondence whatsoever from Northern Rail since the incident.

Would it benefit to write apologetically ahead of any contact from Northern Rail and what should I include within any email/letter?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Many thanks both really appreciate the advice.

I think you both answered my queries.

Just to clarify, is this all best done pre correspondence from Northern Rail?

 

[yorkie]

Just to clarify, is this all best done pre correspondence from Northern Rail?

I've already answered that

I know some people will say "wait for the letter", but if they say it's best to contact them ASAP, then I would follow that advice. However I cannot definitely say this is "best".

So far I'm not aware of anyone who has posted on this forum for advice regarding a first offence with Northern and failed to reach a settlement.

But there is always the possibility that someone may look at your case and see it as a particular concern and may seek either a larger settlement than usual or insist the matter goes to court, though the latter seems unlikely.

 

[najaB]

As Yorkie and crehld have posted, I think there is a high probability that you will be able to achieve a settlement without this matter going to court. The important thing is to convince Northern that you aren't a habitual fare-dodger who just happened to get caught.

 

[SussexMan]

...however a criminal record as a result of a prosecution would ruin my career and result in losing my existing job.

Others have explained that you may well be able to avoid a conviction but we might be able to advise you more and/or reassure you if you told us:

• what field you work in
• what job you do
• whether you have worked for your current employer for more than 2 years
• whether your contract requires you to inform your employer if you are convicted of a criminal offence.

 

[crehld]

Others have explained that you may well be able to avoid a conviction but we might be able to advise you more and/or reassure you if you told us:

• what field you work in
• what job you do
• whether you have worked for your current employer for more than 2 years
• whether your contract requires you to inform your employer if you are convicted of a criminal offence.

I don't see how this is relevant to getting the matter resolved by way of an administrative settlement.

 

[stupid101]

I work in aviation and required to travel internationally including countries which a criminal record will be restrictive

I have worked for my employer for over 2 years and am obliged to inform the company if convicted of a criminal offence.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Thanks all I have drafted a letter to Northern Rail as below.
Feedback would be hugely appreciated.....

Dear Sir or Madam,
I am writing to you in reference to incident at XXXXXXXXX having travelled from Manchester Piccadilly on xx/xx/xxxx.
As yet I have not received any correspondence from you regarding this matter but wish to offer my apologies and make an offer to reach settlement of this situation
without further escalation.

On xxth October 2015 I boarded a Northern Rail service from Manchester Piccadilly to XXXXXXXXXXX.
As I was in a rush I boarded the train without having purchased a ticket at Manchester Piccadilly.
Thinking that I would pass ticket inspection points enroute to the platform I would purchase a ticket at that point.
I did not pass an inspection point and therefore had still not purchased a ticket on board prior to my arrival at XXXXXXXXXX.

Anxious that I had not purchased a ticket prior to travel I panicked and made a mistake by choosing to present my unused return ticket from the prior.
I had purchased the ticket the prior evening and intended to use the same day, however I ended up undertaking my return the following morning.
The ticket inspector took my details and i was interviewed me at xxxxxxxxxxx.

I realise that having boarded the train at Manchester Piccadilly without buying a ticket and presenting my unused ticket from the previous day was wrong and against the law, and that being in a rush and anxious are not valid excuses.

I am not a frequent user of rail services and despite my actions on this occasion I do always purchase tickets prior to travel.

I wish to reassure you that this was a genuine one-off misjudgement and mistake on the day and that my actions on that day were wholly out of character,

I would like to offer my unreserved apologies for my actions and thank the officer at xxxxxxxxxxx as I now fully understand the legal requirement to always purchase a ticket before boarding a train.

I would also like to offer my reassurances that I have learned a lesson and will not board a train again without purchasing a ticket.

I am aware that my actions have cost Northern Rail financially.
I would like remedy this situation and avoid it being escalated further by way of an administrative settlement.
I would like to offer payment of the appropriate outstanding fare, any additional administrative costs and compensate as a result of my inappropriate actions.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours faithfully,

XXXXXX

 

[SussexMan]

I don't see how this is relevant to getting the matter resolved by way of an administrative settlement.

I didn't realise that advice was simply limited to getting the matter resolved by way of an administrative settlement.

The reason I asked was that many people assume their career will be ruined because they get a criminal conviction for a railway ticketing offence. In reality that is very unlikely. Probability suggests that an out of court agreement via an "administrative settlement" will be possible in this situation. However, if that isn't possible for some reason, if someone has worked for more than two years for a UK employer, the employer would need to be very careful and show that the termination was fair and proportionate.

A recordable criminal conviction resulting in a fine becomes spent after 1 year so then doesn't have to be declared for the majority of jobs. And employees need to be careful because many employers try to do DBS checks when they have no legal right to do one.

The OPs situation might be slightly different because of the specialist nature of their employment.

 

[crehld]

I work in aviation and required to travel internationally including countries which a criminal record will be restrictive

I have worked for my employer for over 2 years and am obliged to inform the company if convicted of a criminal offence.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Thanks all I have drafted a letter to Northern Rail as below.
Feedback would be hugely appreciated.....

Dear Sir or Madam,
I am writing to you in reference to incident at XXXXXXXXX having travelled from Manchester Piccadilly on xx/xx/xxxx.
As yet I have not received any correspondence from you regarding this matter but wish to offer my apologies and make an offer to reach settlement of this situation
without further escalation.

On xxth October 2015 I boarded a Northern Rail service from Manchester Piccadilly to XXXXXXXXXXX.
As I was in a rush I boarded the train without having purchased a ticket at Manchester Piccadilly.
Thinking that I would pass ticket inspection points enroute to the platform I would purchase a ticket at that point.
I did not pass an inspection point and therefore had still not purchased a ticket on board prior to my arrival at XXXXXXXXXX.

Anxious that I had not purchased a ticket prior to travel I panicked and made a mistake by choosing to present my unused return ticket from the prior.
I had purchased the ticket the prior evening and intended to use the same day, however I ended up undertaking my return the following morning.
The ticket inspector took my details and i was interviewed me at xxxxxxxxxxx.

I realise that having boarded the train at Manchester Piccadilly without buying a ticket and presenting my unused ticket from the previous day was wrong and against the law, and that being in a rush and anxious are not valid excuses.

I am not a frequent user of rail services and despite my actions on this occasion I do always purchase tickets prior to travel.

I wish to reassure you that this was a genuine one-off misjudgement and mistake on the day and that my actions on that day were wholly out of character,

I would like to offer my unreserved apologies for my actions and thank the officer at xxxxxxxxxxx as I now fully understand the legal requirement to always purchase a ticket before boarding a train.

I would also like to offer my reassurances that I have learned a lesson and will not board a train again without purchasing a ticket.

I am aware that my actions have cost Northern Rail financially.
I would like remedy this situation and avoid it being escalated further by way of an administrative settlement.
I would like to offer payment of the appropriate outstanding fare, any additional administrative costs and compensate as a result of my inappropriate actions.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours faithfully,

XXXXXX

I'm out and about at the moment so not really able to offer full feedback, but my first thoughts are that it is a bit too long. I often feel less is more with these kinds of things.

 

[gray1404]

Given the OP was spoken to on board the train and details taken, I am assuming it was the guard who he spoke to. I am therefore surprised that the guard didn't simply sell him a an anytime single (or return) to the station he was traveling to.

Anyway, keep a hold of your draft letter and wait until Northern have wirrten to you. I am sure others here will provide you with feedback on that letter and if any changes are needed. I too am hoping that you will be offered to settle out of Court with one of Northern's requests for a fixed sum of £80 plus the fare involved.

 

[crehld]

I've now had a chance to look at this properly. I think you need to cut it down a lot. This is because shorter letters are better at getting key points across, whereas in longer more waffling letters these key points can be lost. Try and keep the main body to three paragrahs made up of two or three clear sentences (as per the example I linked to earlier).

This is easily achieved when you cut out what will be regarded as irrelevant information by Northern (e.g. you can cut out the bit about passing inspection points, the fact this is out of character for you), and reduce some of the repetitiveness in places (e.g. you basically say you want to pay aministative costs twice towards the end).

I hope this helps, and do feel free to have another go and post it up here if you feel comfortable doing so.

 

[gray1404]

I agree, cut the letter down so it focusing on the key points.

1. that you are truly sorry and understand the seriousness of your actions
2. that it will not happen again
3. that you would like to reach an out of court of settlement by covering Northern's costs.

 

[stupid101]

Thank you all again for your advice, it is appreciated.....

I presumed that the train was a Northern Rail service however TransPennine Express and Northern Rail both operate services.
I cannot be certain which company operated the train I was on or the train time (approx. 08:00) I only remember that it departed from Platform 13?

Does this make a difference to my chances to reach an administrative settlement?


In the meantime, please see condensed draft below, I was waffling.....


Dear Sir or Madam,
I am writing to you in reference to incident at XXXXXXXXX having travelled from Manchester Piccadilly on xx/xx/xxxx.
As yet I have not received any correspondence from you regarding this matter but I wish to offer my sincerest apologies.

On xxth October 2015 I boarded a XXXXXXXXX service from Manchester Piccadilly to XXXXXXXXXXX.
As I was in a rush I boarded the train without having purchased a ticket at Manchester Piccadilly.
On arrival at XXXXXXXXX I panicked and made a mistake by presenting my unused return ticket, which I purchased originally intending to return the prior evening.
The ticket inspector took my details and I was interviewed me at xxxxxxxxxxx.

I realise that my actions were wrong and against the law and that being in a rush and anxious are not valid excuses.
I would like to offer my unreserved apologies, I am truly sorry for my actions and I now fully understand the legal requirement to always purchase a ticket before boarding a train.
I appreciate the seriousness of my actions and I have genuinely learned a lesson and can reassure this will not happen again.

I am aware that my actions have cost Northern Rail financially and would like remedy this situation and avoid it being escalated further by way of an administrative settlement.
I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours faithfully,

XXXXXX

 

[najaB]

Much better, though personally I wouldn't use the phrase "avoid it being escalated further by way of an administrative settlement." as it sounds like you know too much about the process - i.e. it sounds like you are tying to work the system.

 

[crehld]

Much better, though personally I wouldn't use the phrase "avoid it being escalated further by way of an administrative settlement." as it sounds like you know too much about the process - i.e. it sounds like you are tying to work the system.

Agreed. That phrase was in the other example because in that case the OP been invited to make an administrative settlement.

I would suggest something worded like: "I would like to avoid this matter being escalated further and would be happy to pay the outstanding fare due and any additional costs Northern have incurred as a result of my actions".

 

[stupid101]

Many thanks for all the advice, really is appreciated.

As I am now unsure which train company I should expect a letter from I have a couple of questions....

1. Is there a way of contacting the two train companies to understand if a file/case has been opened and should I do this, or wait for the letter?

2. If not can I establish independently which train operator I travelled on from Manchester Piccadilly Platform 13 on the morning in question?

3. If it was a Transpennine Express service are they any different in their approach in these situations compared to Northern Rail?

 

[gray1404]

Many thanks for all the advice, really is appreciated.

As I am now unsure which train company I should expect a letter from I have a couple of questions....

1. Is there a way of contacting the two train companies to understand if a file/case has been opened and should I do this, or wait for the letter?

2. If not can I establish independently which train operator I travelled on from Manchester Piccadilly Platform 13 on the morning in question?

3. If it was a Transpennine Express service are they any different in their approach in these situations compared to Northern Rail?

1. I would not recommend you do this. I would simply wait for the letter. Depending on what happens when the train company receive the report, and then get round to dealing with it, they my decide to take no further action or they may take further action - which may involve writing to you

2. What time of day was it you were travelling and what station did you travel to on the said service?

3. I shall let others advise on this point as I've no experience of dealing with TPE.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

1. Is there a way of contacting the two train companies to understand if a file/case has been opened and should I do this, or wait for the letter?

2. If not can I establish independently which train operator I travelled on from Manchester Piccadilly Platform 13 on the morning in question?

3. If it was a Transpennine Express service are they any different in their approach in these situations compared to Northern Rail?

1. You can ask. But there is a significant probability that you will simply get a response suggesting that you wait for a letter to arrive which would be issued when your matter is processed.

2. You probably have enough fragments of information which you and/or others on the forum can use to deduce the operator. However, It would not necessarily follow that the investigating officer is employed by the operator you travelled with. Probably, but not necessarily so.

3. Transpenning have a more robust approach to fare evasion than Northern, whereas Northern have a more vigourous approach to detecting tciketless travel.