Advice for a Trainee Driver in a bit of a pickle

[kourblimey]

Hi everyone

Just in need of some help with information about the trainee train driver course, and the ease of which one could leave a course within a month, to sign for another TOC and begin training over again with the new TOC.


1. Are there any repayment obligations for leaving a TOC during the first months of training? (Prior to the rules exam)

2. Is there a such a thing as agreeing to join a TOC in principle once training is completed and key received?


I’d be happy to work for the original TOC who have offered me a contract, but the commute time would be circa 1hr each way, every day. The alternative TOC is just 5 mins away from my home, and I feel this is a huge factor in my decision making.

But the alternative TOC may not get back to me until the course for the original TOC has started, so just want to see if there’s a viable exit route if I were to change my mind.

Thanks to everyone in advance (sorry for such a long winded post)

 

[NSEWonderer]

If you have such issues with the commute time for the first TOC, then there's no point, in my opinion, starting a training course with them only to exit halfway through for another TOC.

Answering question one: depends on the TOC and you're usually given that information if so on training day one or can ask an instructor about it. I mainly knew of freight companies doing that.

Question 2: If you mean joining TOC B after TOC A has trained you then not only could that again incur some monetary penalty but I'm pretty sure you'd not be classed as a Qualified till actually doing a full year of driving without major issues after training.


Assuming they've done their location checks, I believe they would have offered you the contract based on either you relocating or your being within their allowed threshold in some way.

You could wait for the TOC that's closer, as indeed this is a job where you'd want to manage fatigue very well, and that includes commute time, but just note that you've been given a contract from TOC A, whereas TOC B has yet to give one.

Personally, I'd take any that I'm given and see the training out, pass, and do at least a year or two qualified, as you never know, you may actually prefer the work. For you to pass the DMI, you must have said quite a bit that they saw as enough to get a seat with them after all.

 

[kourblimey]

If you have such issues with the commute time for the first TOC, then there's no point, in my opinion, starting a training course with them only to exit halfway through for another TOC.

Assuming they've done their location checks, I believe they would have offered you the contract based on either you relocating or your being within their allowed threshold in some way.

You could wait for the TOC that's closer, as indeed this is a job where you'd want to manage fatigue very well, and that includes commute time, but just note that you've been given a contract from TOC A, whereas TOC B has yet to give one.

Personally, I'd take any that I'm given and see the training out, pass, and do at least a year or two qualified, as you never know, you may actually prefer the work. For you to pass the DMI, you must have said quite a bit that they saw as enough to get a seat with them after all.

Thanks for the response Samzino.

I’m really grateful for the opportunity the original TOC has given me, I understand how tough it is to get this far.

I’d have no qualms continuing working for them, if say I failed my DMI with the alternative closer TOC.

But just wanted to know if I do pass my DMI with alt TOC, whether there is a plausible way to exit off a trainee course within the first 3 months, without any financial obligations to consider as the training would have barely gotten underway?

If I’m offered a contract within a month of my training with original TOC, could I legally leave and restart my PTS and rules with alt TOC?

All the best

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Aug 2024 ==

Just read your edited response to my questions, that’s given me a better understanding. I guess I’ll have a better feel for what can be done once I begin training.

A bit apprehensive to even talk to anybody at TOC A about leaving so soon after starting a training course, but I’ll figure it out!

 

[skyhigh]

I’d have no qualms continuing working for them, if say I failed my DMI with the alternative closer TOC.

It has the potential to go horrendously wrong.

The DMI will be on a working day during working hours. Assuming you have started the training course with TOC A, you won't be allowed to just take a day off so how will you attend?

During the interview you'll almost certainly be asked what job you are currently employed in. So you'd either have to lie (and hope they don't follow up your references) or tell them you're currently in training. Driver managers know each other.

Imagine the interviewing driver manager at TOC B said to a driver manager at TOC A "I had one of your trainees in for an interview today" and it's found out you pulled a sickie to attend or they just think you're not committed? You could easily just be dismissed inside your probationary period and end up with no job at all.

 

[ShunterWOK]

Don't take the first job if your just going to leave because your then taking a place away from someone else who could potentially have that job and wouldn't just leave. If you left they wouldn't slot someone else in because they've missed 3 months training and as mentioned above if the driver managers talk to each other you could potentially end up with nothing

 

[kourblimey]

Hi skyhigh, thanks for the really good points you made.

During the interview you'll almost certainly be asked what job you are currently employed in. So you'd either have to lie (and hope they don't follow up your references) or tell them you're currently in training. Driver managers know each other.

I’d definitely not be doing the DMI once my course has started, this scenario is only if I’d participated in my DMI say next week, and found out the outcome during training.

Would I then be in a position to be able to make a decision even though training has started with TOC A?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Aug 2024 ==

Don't take the first job if your just going to leave because your then taking a place away from someone else who could potentially have that job and wouldn't just leave. If you left they wouldn't slot someone else in because they've missed 3 months training and as mentioned above if the driver managers talk to each other you could potentially end up with nothing

I appreciate this sentiment, I really wouldn’t want to take a position away from another budding trainee.

But unfortunately with the difficulty in getting to this position, and the commitment required going forward, I really have to have my best interests at heart over anything else.

I couldn’t just say no to TOC A in the hopes of passing my DMI with TOC B, as there’s no guarantee of passing.

I’ve been open with TOC B about my starting of a trainee course with TOC A in the near future, and they will be aware of my position. I haven’t disclosed this with TOC A as it could potentially jeopardise my position as a trainee. Hence the difficult situation I’d potentially be in if I pass the upcoming DMI with TOC B.

Once again I’d have no qualms at all working for TOC A, but if both contracts were put forward to me with the exact same starting times, TOC B would be my choice. Unfortunately TOC A course start date is 1 month sooner and puts me in a bit of a pickle.

 

[John R]

I have no particular insight other than to repeat the old proverb that a bird in hand is worth two in the bush. As I understand it, it’s very difficult to get selected, so why risk it?

 

[nick40uk]

I’d definitely not be doing the DMI once my course has started, this scenario is only if I’d participated in my DMI say next week, and found out the outcome during training.

Would I then be in a position to be able to make a decision even though training has started with TOC A?

As others have said, this has the potential to go badly wrong and you need to think really hard about what you do.

Starting a course and then bailing out because the TOC you preferred has now offered a contract is not a good look.

Personally I would take the contract given because at least you have something (and I would assume there is a time limit to accept/reject the offer). Once you've passed out and over the PQA period, the world's your oyster and you can then go to TOC B if you still want to.

The other thing to remember is that even if you pass the DMI, that doesn't mean they will offer a job. There may be others who were better and are given priority for courses, and you could be forced to wait and see what happens.

 

[kourblimey]

Really appreciate the responses. nick40uk is absolutely correct in the fact that I may still not be offered a job even after passing a DMI. Definitely a huge thing to consider.

There’s a depot much closer to me for TOC A that would cut my commute time by 70%, over the one in which I’ll initially be based.

What are the chances of moving to a depot much closer to home as quickly as possible if I’m suffering from fatigue/hardship from the daily commute to the current depot?

It will honestly accumulate and have a huge impact on my ability to concentrate. Do TOC’s have procedures for times like these? Do they cater to a driver as best they can, even with minimal vacancies at alt depot?

And finally, do TOC’s have any lodging allowances for if I wanted to stay closer to the depot on a semi permanent basis? For example something like £40 a night for a B&B?

Responses much appreciated

 

[Ducatist4]

If they allow you to continue the application process based on where you currently live (unless they have offered the job on condition that you relocate) then they are happy that you comply with their fatigue management policy and they wont be offering you anything else. If you want to lodge closer than that'll be at your own expense.
You can only move depots if there is a vacancy - and for some its very much a "dead mans shoes " type of situation!

 

[Sly Sloth]

You are in a bit of a mess!
To be fair you knew the commute was an hour when you applied so knew what you were getting into and now don’t want to deal with it! It sounds like you’re going to build yourself a reputation and believe me when I say they’re almost impossible to get rid of on the railway! Starting a course mentioning fatigue and wanting a hardship move is going to cause you major problems so you’ve got to decide for yourself what’s best but taking this job and starting training is going to open yourself up for having to pay back training fees and they will pursue you for them!

 

[baz962]

Do TOC B require you to do any psychometric tests or are they accepting the ones you have. When I was on an assessment day for London Overground and a Thameslink trainee was there in uniform , for the same reason as you ( better commute). He was advised by the OPC that if he failed then his Thameslink job could be gone and he swiftly exited.

 

[kourblimey]

If they allow you to continue the application process based on where you currently live (unless they have offered the job on condition that you relocate) then they are happy that you comply with their fatigue management policy and they wont be offering you anything else. If you want to lodge closer than that'll be at your own expense.
You can only move depots if there is a vacancy - and for some its very much a "dead mans shoes " type of situation!

Good info here. Shall keep this all in mind.

You are in a bit of a mess!
To be fair you knew the commute was an hour when you applied so knew what you were getting into and now don’t want to deal with it! It sounds like you’re going to build yourself a reputation and believe me when I say they’re almost impossible to get rid of on the railway! Starting a course mentioning fatigue and wanting a hardship move is going to cause you major problems so you’ve got to decide for yourself what’s best but taking this job and starting training is going to open yourself up for having to pay back training fees and they will pursue you for them!

Like I mentioned previously, I’m more than happy to work for TOC A even with the current commute times. But if an alternative was viable, I’m sure you can understand why I’d be inclined to choose it.

2 hour round trip compared to 10 minutes really does add up. At the time of applying to TOC A, TOC B wasn’t an option.

I’m an extremely hard worker and have been for many years, your observation of my upcoming “reputation” is quite uncalled for. I’m just looking out for what’s best for me.

Do TOC B require you to do any psychometric tests or are they accepting the ones you have. When I was on an assessment day for London Overground and a Thameslink trainee was there in uniform , for the same reason as you ( better commute). He was advised by the OPC that if he failed then his Thameslink job could be gone and he swiftly exited.

TOC B have started the interview process with me based off my psychometric results. Surprised the Thameslink “trainee” was made to do his assessments again if he’d already passed? (Maybe he hadn’t? Maybe LO make you resit assessments? < Would be intrigued to know)

 

[WeGoAgain]

"A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush". As you have a contract offer, the best/safest thing to do (imho) is to take the current opportunity. I'd imagine you'd find something to do on your commute and as said above, you could always apply as a qualified driver for TOC B in the future. Alternatively, in a few years, you may want to move house and that current 5 minute commute may be somewhat longer.

I imagine it's a much more difficult decision to make being in the situation, but being practical, holding on to what you have is the best option.

 

[seedoubleyou]

Covering your training costs upon leaving will be in your contract.

Usually it’s two years and there’s a % scale that shows how much you would have to pay back at each stage in your training.

It’s actually a grey area, because you could argue that it’s training you require for the role and if they haven’t paid an external party to train you, then they haven’t lost anything.

My personal thoughts… you need to do what’s best for you ultimately, but your decision would be in bad taste and won’t give you a great starting reputation.

 

[kourblimey]

"A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush". As you have a contract offer, the best/safest thing to do (imho) is to take the current opportunity. I'd imagine you'd find something to do on your commute and as said above, you could always apply as a qualified driver for TOC B in the future. Alternatively, in a few years, you may want to move house and that current 5 minute commute may be somewhat longer.

I imagine it's a much more difficult decision to make being in the situation, but being practical, holding on to what you have is the best option.

Sound advice mate. I’m more leaning towards sticking with what I’ve got currently, and who knows what the future may hold.

Seems as if there are more trainee jobs advertised than qualified. Main reason, for me, why the first step into this career is such an important one. But delighted to have a bird in hand either way!

(Hard to find things to do on a commute when commuting by motorcycle)

Covering your training costs upon leaving will be in your contract.

Usually it’s two years and there’s a % scale that shows how much you would have to pay back at each stage in your training.

It’s actually a grey area, because you could argue that it’s training you require for the role and if they haven’t paid an external party to train you, then they haven’t lost anything.

My personal thoughts… you need to do what’s best for you ultimately, but your decision would be in bad taste and won’t give you a great starting reputation.

Thanks for your input mate, I don’t wanna ruffle any feathers so soon into a new career, especially when people have been kind enough to provide this opportunity. Im 29 years old and have plenty of time ahead of me to choose a new TOC once qualified and experienced.

 

[skyhigh]

It will honestly accumulate and have a huge impact on my ability to concentrate. Do TOC’s have procedures for times like these? Do they cater to a driver as best they can, even with minimal vacancies at alt depot?

To be blunt - the distance hasn't changed since you applied. You've obviously passed the fatigue management policy otherwise you wouldn't have got the job. If you turn round and say you can't concentrate due to your commute that will cause you serious problems. At best you'd probably be told to move house. At worst you will be stood down until they're happy you have things in place to mitigate your fatigue.

If significant changes in your home life meant the commute caused you issues they would do their best to sort you out. Otherwise it's join the waiting list for whatever depot you want and follow the policies in place.

And finally, do TOC’s have any lodging allowances for if I wanted to stay closer to the depot on a semi permanent basis? For example something like £40 a night for a B&B?

That will be a firm no. If you don't want to commute, any costs incurred are on you.

 

[seedoubleyou]

Im 29 years old and have plenty of time ahead of me to choose a new TOC once qualified and experienced.

I’d always advise anyone to take the opportunity that presents itself first and grab it with both hands.

Driver training is a lot to get through and you need to give it your full attention.

Once you’re in the door and have an idea of how the railway works, then you’re in the best position to choose.

5 minute commute doesn’t mean job satisfaction.

 

[kourblimey]

5 minute commute doesn’t mean job satisfaction.

This really hit home!

Once you’re in the door and have an idea of how the railway works, then you’re in the best position to choose.

Definitely the best way forward, think my mind is set. No need to sabotage a really special opportunity.

Thanks to everyone for their inputs today, it’s really really helped.

 

[NSEWonderer]

All sound advice here especially on the part of a sickie being the only realistic way you'd sit a DMI during training for TOC B.

Won't end well imo.

 

[Sly Sloth]

I’m an extremely hard worker and have been for many years, your observation of my upcoming “reputation” is quite uncalled for. I’m just looking out for what’s best for me.

Being a hard worker won’t begrudge you a reputation! Especially if you tell your colleagues that you’re looking out for yourself!
I’ve known people work 40/50 rest days a year but because they’ve gone sick for a week over kids summer holidays they’re “always on the fiddle and not wanting to work” I’m not having a go just advising you that picking up a reputation is very easy but very hard to shake off!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Aug 2024 ==

I’m an extremely hard worker and have been for many years, your observation of my upcoming “reputation” is quite uncalled for. I’m just looking out for what’s best for me.

Being a hard worker won’t begrudge you a reputation! Especially if you tell your colleagues that you’re looking out for yourself!
I’ve known people work 40/50 rest days a year but because they’ve gone sick for a week over kids summer holidays they’re “always on the fiddle and not wanting to work” I’m not having a go just advising you that picking up a reputation is very easy but very hard to shake off!

 

[Terry844]

Wasn’t this exact question asked a few weeks ago!

And the advice was stick with TOC A until your finished training and PQA period.

Or don’t even bother with TOC A and hold out for TOC B because the industry is small and things do get about!

 

[seedoubleyou]

I think the OP has made their mind up and considered all the advice already given.

 

[SouthernStar]

Exactly this! What are the odds, that someone completely different is also in the same situation.

 

[transportphoto]

I’ll bring the thread to a close.