Advice about court summons

[Jason q]

Hi.
Just a bit of advice on a court summons please.
My son made a jouney in August between Dartford and Greenhithe, and had to buy a ticket when he got off the train, which he did.
The ticket machine was being repared and the person doing the repair told him to buy his ticket when he got off.
He no longer has the ticket but I assume they will have CCTV footage of him buying the ticket?
I'm not sure how they managed to identify him. That seems a bit weird unless they have face recognition technology.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Thank you.

 

[_toommm_]

You say he had to buy a ticket when he got off the train? Why didn't your son buy before travel, either at a ticket office or a ticket machine? And what does the court summons say they are intending to bring your son to court for?

 

[Jason q]

It was late at night and the ticket machine was out of order.
The summons is for intentionally travelling without paying. If he pays £130 then he doesn't have to go to court.

 

[_toommm_]

Was the ticket office not open?

 

[Typhoon]

Hi.
Just a bit of advice on a court summons please.
My son made a jouney in August between Dartford and Greenhithe, and had to buy a ticket when he got off the train, which he did.
The ticket machine was being repared and the person doing the repair told him to buy his ticket when he got off.
He no longer has the ticket but I assume they will have CCTV footage of him buying the ticket?
I'm not sure how they managed to identify him. That seems a bit weird unless they have face recognition technology.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Thank you.

There are real experts who will be able to offer better advice but two points. Firstly can you clarify the direction, was it Dartford to Greenhithe or vice versa?. Greenhithe station booking office closes (officially) at 19:30, Dartford at 20:40. 'Late at night' is presumably after then.
Secondly how did he pay for the ticket? Cash, no chance. Card, will show on statement.
The bad news is do they really keep CCTV footage from August to March?

 

[Puffing Devil]

There's a lot missing from this story....

1) Are you sure you have a real court summons, not a threat to take your son to court if he doesn't pay £130?
2) Are you saying that your son had no interraction with anyone, other than simply buying a ticket and the summons arrived out of the blue?
3) Was his name an address taken when he bought the ticket, perhaps?

 

[furlong]

Did you actually see the ticket? Is there some possibility that you weren't told the complete story? How old is your son? (And this might be close to the six-month time limit for involving the court.)

 

[island]

If the alleged offence happened in August and the information has not yet been laid before magistrates, any prosecution would be out of time. So it’s worth clarifying whether a summons has been issued (and if it has, that the date the information was laid was within 6 months of the alleged offence).

 

[najaB]

The bad news is do they really keep CCTV footage from August to March?

No. It wouldn't be any use even if they did.

 

[Puffing Devil]

If the alleged offence happened in August and the information has not yet been laid before magistrates, any prosecution would be out of time. So it’s worth clarifying whether a summons has been issued (and if it has, that the date the information was laid was within 6 months of the alleged offence).

Good spot - it's very important to understand now if this is a summons, or an offer to settle.

 

[js1000]

Good spot - it's very important to understand now if this is a summons, or an offer to settle.

I'd be careful and check if this is a scam as someone has already mentioned. It doesn't seem correct.

A) I find it very hard to believe a TOC would send a court summons without details being taken or confirmed by the individual. Your son's details weren't taken by a revenue officer. If they managed to identify you (i.e. smartcard details, electoral roll etc.) with the reasonable belief it was you they would usually send a letter asking to confirm it was you and for your version of events before deciding whether to drop the case, offer to settle or a court summons.

B) The 6 month limitation period for prosecution has expired if the incident occurred in August. Consequently, this would also void any 'offer to settle'. As I understand it, the only statutory route the TOC can now take is to only claim back the total of the unpaid fare through a county court (as a civil debt). However this has already been paid (albeit after travelling) and it is unheard of for a TOC to go down this route.

As others have said on here CCTV is a red herring. They only keep a month's footage and data protection around them means footage can't just be collected and used to corroborate stories.

 

[Master29]

I'd be careful and check if this is a scam as someone has already mentioned. It doesn't seem correct.

A) I find it very hard to believe a TOC would send a court summons without details being taken or confirmed by the individual. Your son's details weren't taken by a revenue officer. If they managed to identify you (i.e. smartcard details, electoral roll etc.) with the reasonable belief it was you they would usually send a letter asking to confirm it was you and for your version of events before deciding whether to drop the case, offer to settle or a court summons.

B) The 6 month limitation period for prosecution has expired if the incident occurred in August. Consequently, this would also void any 'offer to settle'. As I understand it, the only statutory route the TOC can now take is to only claim back the total of the unpaid fare through a county court (as a civil debt). However this has already been paid (albeit after travelling) and it is unheard of for a TOC to go down this route.

As others have said on here CCTV is a red herring. They only keep a month's footage and data protection around them means footage can't just be collected and used to corroborate stories.

It isn`t a summons. It`s an offer to settle out of court. How would it be a scam and how on earth would a scamster know he was travelling at that time for which he admits and that he had no ticket. I think the OP may just have got things a little mixed up. To the OP Just curious. You say your son was told by the guy mending the ticket machine presumably at Dartford that he needed to by a ticket as he left and that this was late at night. It seems a strange time to be repairing a ticket machine. I think it would be wise for him to just pay up as that`ll be the best offer he`ll get.

 

[Haywain]

It isn`t a summons. It`s an offer to settle out of court. How would it be a scam and how on earth would a scamster know he was travelling at that time for which he admits and that he had no ticket. I think the OP may just have got things a little mixed up. To the OP Just curious. You say your son was told by the guy mending the ticket machine presumably at Dartford that he needed to by a ticket as he left and that this was late at night. It seems a strange time to be repairing a ticket machine. I think it would be wise for him to just pay up as that`ll be the best offer he`ll get.

If this really happened in August I would advise against paying anything, as there is no consequence to doing so. However, I can't help feeling that there is some information missing or the facts are not as stated in the OP and for that reason feel we should be somewhat guarded in the advice we give.

 

[cuccir]

I'd be wary of giving any strong advice without further details. In addition to the questions already asked, it may be worth checking out this post which describes what we need to be able to help.

 

[Master29]

If this really happened in August I would advise against paying anything, as there is no consequence to doing so. However, I can't help feeling that there is some information missing or the facts are not as stated in the OP and for that reason feel we should be somewhat guarded in the advice we give.

If it`s SE asking for an out of court settlement I would say paying up and avoiding further proceedings would have been the very thing to do given the OP`s situation. I still don`t believe it`s a scam and we don`t know how old this request from SE actually is given the incident occurred in August last year as you pointed out. There are pieces missing though as you say so I take your point about offering anything further until or if the OP returns with further info.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

It would help if you could show us a redacted copy of the paperwork your son has been sent. We don't need his name and address, but dates of what happened and when the paperwork was issued would be useful. If there are payment details of who should be paid and how, it would probably help if we could see that to.

So if you can scan the paperwork and load it here, that would be great.

 

[Haywain]

If it`s SE asking for an out of court settlement I would say paying up and avoiding further proceedings would have been the very thing to do given the OP`s situation

If, and it's a big if, the offence occurred in August it cannot be brought before the courts so there is no need to pay anything to avoid further proceedings as there cannot be further proceedings, hence my advice not to pay.

 

[gray1404]

I really hope the OP comes back to provide further details soon. Otherwise, this thread might as well be locked until they do.

 

[Typhoon]

I really hope the OP comes back to provide further details soon. Otherwise, this thread might as well be locked until they do.

Agreed. Several members who have a track record of providing well considered advice have asked for clarification on key points, but this has not been given despite the OP initially asking for advice. Whenever I have viewed the thread, the OP has not been listed as also viewing it (except, possibly, as 'Guest'). Time to move on?

 

[Jason q]

Hi.
Sorry for the delay but I have been trying to gather info.
It wasn't the same occaaion that he thought.
He had a ticket but the guard believed it to be a forgery. They looked at CCTV footage there and then and saw him buying the ticket, but the guard refused to believe it was him. He didn't have any money on him so couldn't pay, but gave them his name and address. This was during the day. Stupidly he didn't keep the ticket. He was stopped at Dartford.

 

[Jason q]

He is 29.
Haywain, yes it was definitely in August, but surely they must know about the 6 months court thing? The letter gives a date and time to attend Sevenoaks magistrate court.
Thanks.

 

[swt_passenger]

The obvious question then, is this really the first correspondence received?

 

[Jason q]

Yes good question. I understand your concerns. I will try and find out.

 

[js1000]

He is 29.
Haywain, yes it was definitely in August, but surely they must know about the 6 months court thing? The letter gives a date and time to attend Sevenoaks magistrate court.
Thanks.

It would be very helpful if the OP confirm the timescales involved here. You don't need to name the specific date of the alleged offence and the date when the court summons was issued - just if 6 months have elapsed between both. (i.e. 182.5 days, part thereof so 183 days) Let's confirm that first and we can proceed from there if the court summons is valid. We are all somewhat confused.

 

[Jason q]

So he insists there has been no correspondence until now. I can only advise him based on what he tells me.

 

[Jason q]

27th of August was the alleged offence. The letter arrived on the mat yesterday.

 

[gray1404]

What is the date of issue printed on the court summons Not the date you received it. Not the date that he has to attend court. But the date they issued it (i.e. the date they printed it on).

 

[221129]

What is the date of issue printed on the court summons Not the date you received it. Not the date that he has to attend court. But the date they issued it (i.e. the date they printed it on).

Surely the date that matters is the date the information is laid before the court, so not the summons issue date?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

27th of August was the alleged offence. The letter arrived on the mat yesterday.

The summons should, if it follows the format I am aware of, contain a subheading "Offences" towards the bottom of the first page. This should contain a section that details "date of information".

What is the "date of information", as shown on the summons?

 

[Jason q]

I've looked everywhere. The only two dates are the date of the offence and the date of the court hearing.