Adverse weather - what causes the delays?

[6Gman]

Curious to know whether anyone can give an idea of the significance of various causes of delay during the current adverse weather?

I think the general public tend to assume it's simply depth of snow blocking travel (hence calls for "more snowploughs").

Outside a few special circumstances I assume that trains being snowed in, or lines being physically blocked are pretty rare.

So how significant are each of the following:

frozen points
damage to stock (eg the Pendolino window issue)
electric trains struggling to pick up power
disruption caused by staffing problems (staff failing to get to work on time/ at all)

Comments invited!

 

[Ferret]

Curious to know whether anyone can give an idea of the significance of various causes of delay during the current adverse weather?

I think the general public tend to assume it's simply depth of snow blocking travel (hence calls for "more snowploughs").

Outside a few special circumstances I assume that trains being snowed in, or lines being physically blocked are pretty rare.

So how significant are each of the following:

frozen points
damage to stock (eg the Pendolino window issue)
electric trains struggling to pick up power
disruption caused by staffing problems (staff failing to get to work on time/ at all)

Comments invited!

All of the above. Not to mention reduction in permissible speed as per the rulebook, running brake tests in falling snow.

Once delays build, they tend to compound with train crew requiring their legal breaks etc.

 

[sarahj]

For us down south its:

Power pick up
Delays forcing staff to miss trains (we have cover staff, but somtimes a collection of delays means everyone is out)
Unit faults (sometimes by point 1) including coupler issues
Frozen brakes (more unti faults)
Frozen points, but many of the main ones are heated

And then when thing get late, longer dwell times at stations to pick up and drop off everyone. On a 45 min run with 15 stations, an extra 30 secs at stations soon adds up.

SJ

 

[Ferret]

For us down south its:

Power pick up
Delays forcing staff to miss trains (we have cover staff, but somtimes a collection of delays means everyone is out)
Unit faults (sometimes by point 1) including coupler issues
Frozen brakes (more unti faults)
Frozen points, but many of the main ones are heated

And then when thing get late, longer dwell times at stations to pick up and drop off everyone. On a 45 min run with 15 stations, an extra 30 secs at stations soon adds up.

SJ

London Midland having a driver shortage and blocking umpteen platforms at New St yesterday evening wasn't helpful to the rest of us who were trying to run a service.......

 

[chuckles1066]

Comments invited!

Lack of investment.

TOC's should be obliged to publicise exactly how much revenue they expect to generate from each January fare-hike and break it down so that everyone can see just how much of it is invested in the infrastructure.

 

[wintonian]

For us down south its:

Power pick up
Delays forcing staff to miss trains (we have cover staff, but somtimes a collection of delays means everyone is out)
Unit faults (sometimes by point 1) including coupler issues
Frozen brakes (more unti faults)
Frozen points, but many of the main ones are heated

And then when thing get late, longer dwell times at stations to pick up and drop off everyone. On a 45 min run with 15 stations, an extra 30 secs at stations soon adds up.

SJ

In that order? If so it doesn't seem too far off in my experience.

 

[Bayum]

Curious to know whether anyone can give an idea of the significance of various causes of delay during the current adverse weather?

I think the general public tend to assume it's simply depth of snow blocking travel (hence calls for "more snowploughs").

Outside a few special circumstances I assume that trains being snowed in, or lines being physically blocked are pretty rare.

So how significant are each of the following:

frozen points
damage to stock (eg the Pendolino window issue)
electric trains struggling to pick up power
disruption caused by staffing problems (staff failing to get to work on time/ at all)

Comments invited!

How anyone can expect the travelling public to know exactly what is meant by the umbrella term that is often used by TOCs and stations.


If people actually told the passengers what the problem is - people might not have the misconceptions they have.

 

[Boodiggy]

Can be a number of reasons, most points these days have heating strips or pads to melt snow/ice but not all. Major junctions will have but points in depots, especially hand operated points will not have and will need to be cleared by staff. Also a decision will be made into what points can be clipped into a set position with pway or S&T staff regularly checking for the build up of ice or snow. In tunnels or at structures over the railway the build up of icicles or ice on the rail head where water is dripping can cause issues, especially when the has been a break in the service and the icicles / ice has built up. The extra water can also affect track circuits. Train operators may decide to cancel certain services so that they are not left with no train staff due to delays on inward journeys.

 

[bunnahabhain]

During falling snow or when winds can cause drifts trains are limited to 100mph, and 10mph below the maximum permitted speed, but don't have to go slower than 50mph, so for some TOCs this will affect them more than others, for example Virgin and East Coast. Ontop of that points can and will freeze (this happened at Kettering yesterday) so until S&T are on site to unfreeze them can cause trains to be diverted, cancelled or delayed.

You will also get staff delayed or unable to get into work due to road conditions. Problems can arise from snow getting into the horn, and reduced traction, affecting braking distances and acceleration. On the 3rd rail network you can also suffer from electrical pickup problems if ice builds up on the third rail, which can lead to units shutting themselves down.

 

[sarahj]

Just about in that order. I've just got home from a 11 hour shift and appart from a hash up with a blockade at three bridges this morning over the last two days they have been in order the reasons for delays. I was cover yeserday and part cover today and had to keep going out to cover late running staff on other trains that were held up by power pick up and units failing in the cold, including a 171 that failed on london rd viaduct when it lost all head and tail lights and its brakes locked on. Then last night a unit failed between Falmer and lewes for 6 hours due to power pick up issues. This then means more delays and diversions for other trains and units/staff being late for other services.

Over the last few days the phones have been ringing non stop in the PM's office

 

[455driver]

Trains are delayed because the horrible driver needs to make extra cups of tea to try and keep warm, have you seen how long it takes to boil a kettle?

 

[sarahj]

Ahh, you see we on southern have nice hot water boilers in our mess rooms, nice boiling water on tap and a big mug of tea

 

[michael769]

Trains are delayed because the horrible driver needs to make extra cups of tea to try and keep warm, have you seen how long it takes to boil a kettle?

Bob Crow should make them give you all express kettles!

 

[455driver]

Ahh, you see we on southern have nice hot water boilers in our mess rooms, nice boiling water on tap and a big mug of tea

We have as well but that wouldnt have had the same effect in the post!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Bob Crow should make them give you all express kettles!

Bob Crow is naff all to do with the majority of drivers so not much point really.

Anyway we already have hot water boilers in the messrooms.

 

[TGV]

From a high speed point of view:

frozen points - Yes it happens frequently in this weather just like any normal lines.

damage to stock (eg the Pendolino window issue) - This is the biggest problem for high speed operations. The snow freezes in and around the ballast which then becomes a "slab" of ice with ballast suspended in it. The passage of a train (at high speed in particular) creates a low pressure area enough to disturb the slab and if it lifts or is dislodged enough to strike running gear, brake discs or any part of the train, the slab is smashed and loose ballast impacts everywhere underneath the train and of course gets ejected out the sides too where it can hit passing trains - damaging windows etc...

electric trains struggling to pick up power - Ice can cause a problem with arcing, or impact damage taking out chunks of carbon, but in general overhead lines and pantographs fare much better than 3rd rail and shoes in this kind of weather. Certainly they aren't the limiting factor with speed restrictions - that would be the point above about ballast damage.

disruption caused by staffing problems (staff failing to get to work on time/ at all) - happens everywhere.

 

[6Gman]

Bob Crow should make them give you all express kettles!

Only if they're nationalised kettles!

 

[TDK]

Rules and regulations stop services below is pasted the rules for snow:

Normal running can take place unless you are told that snow is
deeper than 200 mm (8 inches) above the top of the rail head.
If you are told that snow is deeper than 200 mm (8 inches) above
the top of the rail head, you must:
• suspend the normal running of trains
• tell Operations Control and wait for further instructions.

That is for snow, there anr many weather factors and also condition that can and will affect the train services with ESR's imposed on many of these occasions, below is a list and the reasons:

1. High/gale force winds - debris on the track including fallen trees
2. High temperatures - heating of rails can cause them to buckle
3. Flooding - affects track circuits, displaces ballast etc.
4. Low temperatures - affects points, conduction of current, brakes, train air systems
5. Snow - as above but also can cause a serious obstruction due to snow drifts, clog up train horns (very common), visibility of signals due to foliage and the aspects being covered by the snow

So to the general public it's just snow, to a train operator it a nightmare

 

[swt_passenger]

Lack of investment.

TOC's should be obliged to publicise exactly how much revenue they expect to generate from each January fare-hike and break it down so that everyone can see just how much of it is invested in the infrastructure.

That's straightforward. In general terms (ignoring stuff like Chiltern's Evergreen projects) the TOCs invest nothing in infrastructure - it is purely down to NR to do what is required to meet DfT's priorities.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Train services that run early morning and late evening will also be affected by traincrew encountering issues getting in to work, same as any other business/employer. If heavy snow causes road closures and the train or bus services are yet to start up, how else are the train crew meant to get in? There's usually a lull in gritting excercises between 1 and 4am and its usually this time when late shifts finish and early shifts start. If road conditions deteriorate in that time that can potentially strand staff attempting to get in.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Snow has been known to block the horns on 185's but they have also blocked the air compressors causing the brakes to jam on. Not a pleasant experience in the middle of nowhere at 100 mph with a blizzard blowing and no way to defrost the damn things!

 

[chuckles1066]

That's straightforward. In general terms (ignoring stuff like Chiltern's Evergreen projects) the TOCs invest nothing in infrastructure - it is purely down to NR to do what is required to meet DfT's priorities.

So where does all the extra revenue generated end up?

If it's not being invested in infrastructure (even though we're told it is), whose palm is being greased?

 

[infobleep]

Did all these problems, such as ballast damaging parts of the train, occur in the days of steam trains? I would expect so but thought I'd ask anyway.