Advanced Ticket Conundrum.

[Northernboy67]

I know that advanced tickets are for the relevant booked trains only, hence why they are cheaper. Living in Gillingham, Kent. A friend of mine had a Gold Season Ticket to get to London, as she commuted there. She had to go and see someone, and needed to catch the earliest train from Kings Cross. In order to do that, she had to catch the first train which was the 04:09 to London Bridge. Unusually, the train was cancelled, and there was no way she would make her booked train from Kings Cross. After speaking to station staff, there was nothing they could do. Would she have been able to explain to the Train Conducter, or would she have been liable for Full Single fair, which she certainly did not have!!!

 

[LexyBoy]

She should have been allowed to travel on the next train, provided that she allowed sufficient time to transfer between London Bridge and King's Cross. Alternatively she should I believe be eligible for a full refund of the Advance ticket.

The ability to use more than one ticket to constitute one journey is part of the NRCoC and the implications on Advance ticket holders (i.e. delays encountered whilst on one ticket still allow travel on later Advance trains if it is part of a single journey) is explained clearly in The Manual (an internal industry document giving guidance on ticketing matters). This does somewhat contradict the T&Cs of Advance tickets however.

What did she do in the end?

 

[bb21]

Where is her season ticket to? London Terminals or is it a Travelcard season?

Which train did she intend to catch from King's Cross? The 0550 Leeds train?

 

[yorkie]

I know that advanced tickets are for the relevant booked trains only, hence why they are cheaper. Living in Gillingham, Kent. A friend of mine had a Gold Season Ticket to get to London, as she commuted there. She had to go and see someone, and needed to catch the earliest train from Kings Cross. In order to do that, she had to catch the first train which was the 04:09 to London Bridge. Unusually, the train was cancelled, and there was no way she would make her booked train from Kings Cross. After speaking to station staff, there was nothing they could do.

There's a lot of missing information, so I will have to fill in some of the blanks and make assumptions.

The 0409 is a booked connection with the 0615 East Coast service to Newcastle.

It is unclear if that train is what is meant by "the first train from Kings Cross", but assuming the intention was "the first booked connection of the day from Kings Cross, for a journey from Gillingham" then that's fine. If something else was meant, such as the 0550 East Coast service to Leeds, then we have a problem.

The next service from Gillingham is the 0434, arriving 0552. It is very possible that the 0615 would still be caught, depending on how well the Northern Line is running. However if the 0615 was missed, the passenger should be entitled to catch the next train, which would either be 0630 or 0700, depending on the destination (which we do not know).

Would she have been able to explain to the Train Conducter, or would she have been liable for Full Single fair, which she certainly did not have!!!

Providing she was booked on the 0615, then she would not be liable for any charge.

If, however, she was booked on the 0550 then that is not a valid connection, so it would be a matter for the conductor to decide whether or not to show discretion. I believe that approaching the conductor before departure would be the best way to maximise your chances, and asking nicely and being apologetic, explaining that the 0409 was cancelled and, crucially, showing the ticket for that portion of the journey. But the conductor would be entitled to charge the passenger for the cheapest available appropriate ticket (including a Railcard discount, if applicable) as it was not a valid connection. In practice, the guard may - again, at their discretion - excess the existing ticket up to the cheapest available ticket.

 

[island]

Did she hold a ticket to cover her journey from City Thameslink to St. Pancakes/London Bridge to Kings Cross St. Pancreas?

 

[yorkie]

Did she hold a ticket to cover her journey from City Thameslink to St. Pancakes/London Bridge to Kings Cross St. Pancreas?

I don't agree that the journey would need to be made via Thameslink; the Northern Line is what the booking engines recommend for that transfer.

 

[island]

I didn't say it would need to be made via Thameslink. The second option, London Bridge to Kings Cross St Pancras, is obviously via the Northern Line; Kings Cross St Pancras is only the name of an underground station.

 

[Northernboy67]

I have just been speaking to her. I thought the way she told me was quite recent, she is talking about 3 years ago!! She told me that she was going to Retford. And there was a train just after 6 in the morning and one at 06:15. She caught the 04:34, and arrived slightly late. She caught a taxi to Kings Cross, and got to the barrier at Kings Cross, and the ticket man sent her to the ticket Office, and she missed the 06:15. There was not another train that would have got her to her appointment in time. (She had to get to Ollerton, which has no station for 09:00). She didn't bother travelling to Retford in the end.

 

[bb21]

If it were that long ago then unfortunately I don't think there is much you can do about it now. But keep the info discussed above for future reference.

Missing a connection is not an uncommon occurrence. Provided that a sufficient amount of time has been allowed for interchange, you should be allowed on the next available service.

 

[TonyR]

I've had similar happen a number of times due to late or cancelled trains. Just go to the ticket office, explain the problem and they'll endorse your ticket for a later train.

 

[yorkie]

I've had similar happen a number of times due to late or cancelled trains. Just go to the ticket office, explain the problem and they'll endorse your ticket for a later train.

You don't have to do this, though if the time taken to do this doesn't result in a train being missed, then it would be a sensible course of action.

I certainly wouldn't do that if it meant missing the next train though; the conditions do state that if you are delayed while travelling, you can take the next train!

 

[Northernboy67]

Thanks for the info guys. I shall certainly use this for reference. I know my train from Burnley to Leeds was cancelled when travelling back to Gillingham, resulting in missing my connection to London Kings Cross. And my ticket was endorsed. Sometimes a word with the conductor/train manager, before boarding the train can help.

 

[170401]

. But the conductor would be entitled to charge the passenger for the cheapest available appropriate ticket (including a Railcard discount, if applicable) as it was not a valid connection. In practice, the guard may - again, at their discretion - excess the existing ticket up to the cheapest available ticket.

Excesses are not permitted on advance purchase tickets and in this case the passenger is regarded as having no ticket, Guards/Conductors/Train managers do not have any authority to override this at their discretion. In the case quoted, boarding from a station with ticket issuing facilities, the Guard would only need to charge the full price anytime fare for the journey made. He may of course show discretion and offer discounted fares if the case warrants it.

 

[bb21]

Advance fares can be excessed. They cannot be excessed to onboard.

In the event of the passenger missing his booked service on an Advance ticket through no fault of the rail industry, the rule is to charge the cheapest ticket available for immediate travel, with Railcard discount if appropriate, not the full fare.

 

[yorkie]

Excesses are not permitted on advance purchase tickets and in this case the passenger is regarded as having no ticket, Guards/Conductors/Train managers do not have any authority to override this at their discretion.

That may be the policy of a Train Company you have in mind (which?). But it is not true across the board. In fact one Guard told me not so long ago as he wasn't particularly happy that his Company had issued instructions to excess passengers as he believed that to be rather lenient.

The other week someone was excessed to the Super Off Peak fare on East Coast, and they still felt that was too harsh, and complained to East Coast about it!

In the case quoted, boarding from a station with ticket issuing facilities, the Guard would only need to charge the full price anytime fare for the journey made. He may of course show discretion and offer discounted fares if the case warrants it.

In the case quoted, the guard would allow travel of course, as the 0615 was a valid connection.

However under no circumstances could the guard charge the "full price Anytime fare for the journey made" - the worst they could do, for the holder of an Advance ticket who missed their train, would be to charge the appropriate fare (with Railcard discounts if applicable).

The full price Anytime fare was chargeable under the old rules - but this changed a year or two ago.

 

[170401]

That may be the policy of a Train Company you have in mind (which?). But it is not true across the board. In fact one Guard told me not so long ago as he wasn't particularly happy that his Company had issued instructions to excess passengers as he believed that to be rather lenient.

I'm happy to concede that their are differences in policy between companies. It seems to be a growing problem of privatisation that not everyone is singing form the same hymn sheet and more and more the industry seems to be pandering to those shouting the loudest (Usually muppets shouting about being "fined" for forgetting their railcard!).

In Scotland for a good few years now we've had 'buy before you board' drummed into us and as far as advance tickets are concerned, these are quota controlled with conductors having no authority to be flexible with them (Apart from during disruption). If a passenger has one and is not on their booked train then basically they are treated as if no ticket is held.

TBH I can see the whole issue of ticketing becoming a chancers charter in the near future as more and more those holding tickets they are not entitled too or which have expired validity are allowed to just pay the difference to the ticket they should've paid for.

 

[island]

In Scotland for a good few years now we've had 'buy before you board' drummed into us and as far as advance tickets are concerned, these are quota controlled with conductors having no authority to be flexible with them (Apart from during disruption). If a passenger has one and is not on their booked train then basically they are treated as if no ticket is held.

This is inappropriate. The official policy, common to all TOCs, is that a passenger with an advance ticket on the wrong train (but the right company) is to be charged for a new ticket at the price they would have paid immediately before travelling. Railcard discounts and off-peak tickets are to be allowed.

 

[OwlMan]

This is inappropriate. The official policy, common to all TOCs, is that a passenger with an advance ticket on the wrong train (but the right company) is to be charged for a new ticket at the price they would have paid immediately before travelling. Railcard discounts and off-peak tickets are to be allowed.

Not always
The official rules are

Travel on a service other than specified on the ticket (correct date and train company, but wrong train) (Excess paid on board the train where there was “opportunity to buy” before boarding)
Advance
Where a Train Company is apparently at fault - DO NOT CHARGE EXCESS FARE. Issue a ‘Free’ Excess ticket to cover the journey.
Otherwise charge the appropriate Single fare for the journey being made as if no ticket held.

Travel on a service other than specified on the ticket (Excess paid before travel, or on board the train where there was “no opportunity to buy” before boarding))
Advance
Where a Train Company is apparently at fault - DO NOT CHARGE EXCESS FARE. Issue a ‘Free’ Excess ticket to cover the journey.
Otherwise
The time of the reservable leg has not yet passed.
charge £10 admin fee PLUS the difference between the fare paid and the appropriate Single fare for the journey being made
The time of the reservable leg has passed.
charge the appropriate Single fare for the journey being made as if no ticket held.

Notes: Railcard discount allowed provided original ticket is discounted; Reference to ‘appropriate fare’ means the cheapest Single or Return ticket available for immediate travel on chosen service.

 

[island]

That's not what the Manual says in its Advance Fares FAQ section:

Q07 – If customers are found to be travelling not on their booked train (but on the correct date and correct Train Company), what fare will they be required to buy on board the train

A: The fare that would have applied had they purchased it at the station for travel on that train immediately before the start of the journey. If required a return fare can be sold.

Railcard discounts are allowed if the original Advance fare was Railcard discounted and the Railcard is held at the time of travel.

Archive information retained for Customer Relations or refund department reference:

Until 21 October 2012, East Coast used to charge the full Anytime fare.

Until 31 October 2012, Arriva Trains Wales, Chiltern Railways, CrossCountry, East Midlands Trains, First Great Western, First TransPennine Express, Greater Anglia and South West Trains used to charge the full Anytime fare.

 

[OwlMan]

That is what the excess fares section says - and is what the "guard" should do.

The FAQ appears to be a simplified version - the only difference being that if the ticket has not expired and no "opportunity to buy" has been passed you are allowed the value of your advance ticket (less admin fee) as part payment.

 

[yorkie]

When it says "what fare will they be required to buy on board the train" it really means (and should say) is "what fare will they be required to buy on board the train, if the ticket office was open" because, as we know, if a ticket office isn't open and the ability to obtain the excess isn't available to the passenger, the customer is treated on board as if they are at a ticket office.

In other words, the "penalty" for not visiting a ticket office is the charge of the appropriate fare as opposed to the difference in fares (+£10 admin fee).

Where the Advance ticket costs less than £10, there is effectively no 'penalty'.