Advanced purchase seat... seat taken!!

[awwalker]

hi everyone

This is my first post and wanting a bit of advice on behalf of my brother.

He left Edinburgh waverley literally an hour ago on the 7pm to kings cross. he booked a first class advanced purchase ticket a few days back and had his seat already planned and allocated. Theory says that you turn up to the train, find your seat with the ticket stuck in the back and hey presto kick back and enjoy the journey.

My poor Brother ( who is assertive but in this case put in a difficult situation ) found that there was no seat reservation ticket in the seat and a snooty woman in his seat. When informed this was his seat she proceeded to be argumentative and belittle him.

Her argument i think was based on the fact the coach was not full and he could sit elsewhere. this though is surley not the point. My first thought is for my brother to press for some sort of complaint on the grounds that his seat was effectivley not reserved. Although his ticket said the number of his reserved seat, the ticket behind the seat is meant as a sign to avoid what he experienced. has anyone experienced this and does he have grounds to complain and get a refund or something

Cheers
Andrew

 

[SS4]

He can ask the conductor to ask what happens since the reservation part of the ticket shows a seat number. I wouldn't have put it past the snooty woman to have removed it herself, especially if there were other reservation tags!

Unfortunately I don't think there will be any compensation, if anything he'd get his reservation fee back since it wasn't honoured but chances are it's the princely sum of £0.00

It has happened to me before, it was because of a short XC service from Birmingham to Paignton (nearly 4 hours!) making first class occupied. As it happened I had to sit in standard

 

[ainsworth74]

He should be able to get the woman removed from his seat, he should go ask a member of train crew (with his reservation) and they should remove her I would have thought. If the reservation system has broken and nothing is reserved anywhere then whilst he might not be able to sit in his seat he might be able to claim some compensation but only if he can't find a seat at all.

The railway bye-laws are pretty clear that a reserved seat should be vacated when asked to do so. Assuming he is still on-board I would suggest finding a member of staff or if possible the guard.

19. Classes of accommodation, reserved seats and sleeping berths
Except with permission from an authorised person, no person shall remain in any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class, except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be in that particular place.

Source

Though if there are plenty of spare seats then perhaps just take one of those? Either way I doubt there will be any compensation unless he can't find any seat at all.

 

[awwalker]

Hi there, cheers for quick reply.
He did ask conductor to check for the slip behind seat. He found it behind the seat but.......final destination was darlington and not doncaster where he was getting off. Not doing jobs i think!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Yeah he got a seat ok.
I just hate a snooty C!w getting best over a family member! ( and rail companies not doing their job)

 

[ainsworth74]

Yeah he got a seat ok.
I just hate a snooty C!w getting best over a family member! ( and rail companies not doing their job)

I know what you mean. Unfortunately in this case he would have been wise to stick to his guns the bye-laws are pretty clear that he was in the right and she the wrong (as if common sense wasn't enough to tell you that!). Seeing as he got a seat there will be no compensation, but by all means send a complaint to East Coast (see here) as this shouldn't have happened in the first place!

 

[Flamingo]

From memory, it's a £100 fine for sitting in the seat and not vacating it when asked, and £200 fine for removing the seat reservation.

It is a bylaw offence, and the traincrew should have pointed this out to the other passenger.

Also, if she was being that argumentative, there is a bylaw offence of causing distress to other passengers, or the old Section 5 public order offence. In either case, the traincrew should have intervened and told her to pull her neck in, or get off at the next stop.

As regards compensation, this would only be available if he had not been able to get another seat in the same class.

In the case of missing reservations or problems, then the train-crew only have to offer another seat in the same accommodation in the first instance, but if there are no STD class seats, then a seat in 1st will usually be offered.

Someone sitting in a reserved seat is not a reason for a free first class upgrade, especially if there are lots of other seats in STD.

 

[tony_mac]

if there is no notice that it is a reserved seat, then anyone can sit there.

I can't see anything in the byelaws that says you can be moved from your seat because the train crew feel like it. (unless they manage to produce a notice that the seat is reserved).

As there were other free seats, I really don't see the problem.

 

[SS4]

if there is no notice that it is a reserved seat, then anyone can sit there.

I can't see anything in the byelaws that says you can be moved from your seat because the train crew feel like it. (unless they manage to produce a notice that the seat is reserved).

As there were other free seats, I really don't see the problem.

Surely the OP's ticket is proof of reservation

 

[Flamingo]

if there is no notice that it is a reserved seat, then anyone can sit there.

I can't see anything in the byelaws that says you can be moved from your seat because the train crew feel like it. (unless they manage to produce a notice that the seat is reserved).

As there were other free seats, I really don't see the problem.

We are (usually) given a list of reserved seats.

The usual scenario is that the reservation ticket is missing, usually at table seats (strangely enough) that will just happen to have a group at them, who will always say "It was not reserved", even though every other reservation label on the train is OK.

In those cases, if a passenger is in possession of a reservation ticket for a seat, that's good enough for me, I'll ask the people in the seats to move.

If the passengers in the seat are refusing to move, I usually make a deal of telling the people with the reservations to move to First Class. Then tell the people refusing to move I would have moved them to First Class, but as they refused to co-operate, they can stay where they are .

If the passengers who are in the seat wish to complain, my managers door is always open.

 

[yorkie]

If the passengers in the seat are refusing to move, I usually make a deal of telling the people with the reservations to move to First Class. Then tell the people refusing to move I would have moved them to First Class, but as they refused to co-operate, they can stay where they are .

Sounds good to me.

As for the 1900 Edinburgh-King's Cross, I suspect it would be easy to get a table to yourself in first class on that train, on a weekday, in the current climate.

First class patronage on East Coast has collapsed, at least on weekdays when you can only use a very expensive Anytime ticket. I got the 0800 York - London and 1830 London - York recently and you could get a table to yourself easily. The 1900 Edinburgh - London would be just as easy.

Standard though is still busy, but I would have no sympathy for anyone requesting compensation if they did not give the guard a chance. I would expect any guard to find a suitable replacement seat and some guards may well bump people up to First.

awwalker, welcome to the forum, and sorry if this doesn't sound sympathetic but I am pretty sure your brother could have found a table to himself in one of the first class carriages on that train, with a choice of a window seat, facing the direction of travel, quite easily I reckon.

If someone asked me to move when there were loads of seats available I would think it very odd. Unless there was something really special about that seat...!

 

[Flamingo]

I do have an evil streak!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I have to say that if that was me and my reservation, I would just carry on to the next seat and forget about it immediately.

As for the 1900 Edinburgh-King's Cross, I suspect it would be easy to get a table to yourself in first class on that train, on a weekday, in the current climate.

Of course it is - probably about 10 free seats per person, each with a table.
There are plenty of issues which we should be concerned about in life, very concerned with some of them. But not this.

I do have an evil streak!

Flamingo. I'm beginning to think you sometimes enjoy your job too much!

 

[Flamingo]

Flamingo. I'm beginning to think you sometimes enjoy your job too much!

Some of the lines we get to use should be counted as taxable, they are so much fun! They really do count as a benefit in kind!

A colleague a few weeks ago, asking a lady in First Class for her ticket, was given a Std class ticket. before he could say anything, she barked at him "I'm PREGNANT!"
To which he replied "I swear it wasn't me, I've never seen you before in my life!" and walked away, to the laughter of everyone sitting around!

 

[MCR247]

I was on the 1830 KGX - NCL last Thursday, and because the set was a coach short, they did not to put any reservations out!

Queue a few season ticket holders trying to bully people into moving saying they pay £££ etc etc :roll:

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I was on the 1830 KGX - NCL last Thursday, and because the set was a coach short, they did not to put any reservations out!

But in First class?
I (and a few others from on here) were on the 18:30 KGX-NCL last week on Wed, and counted about 20 pax over the 200+ seats available in 1st.

As I suggested 2 posts up, about 10 seats per person.

before he could say anything, she barked at him "I'm PREGNANT!"

That would be two tickets, then? (or three if she carried twins).

 

[Flamingo]

I was on the 1830 KGX - NCL last Thursday, and because the set was a coach short, they did not to put any reservations out!

Queue a few season ticket holders trying to bully people into moving saying they pay £££ etc etc :roll:

"Which means you have in fact paid less for this journey than this ticket-holder sir, so I suggest that you put up with it"

No wonder my boss dreads my complaints coming in...

 

[yorkie]

I was on the 1830 KGX - NCL last Thursday, and because the set was a coach short, they did not to put any reservations out!

Queue a few season ticket holders trying to bully people into moving saying they pay £££ etc etc :roll:

Yeah these trains are still busy in Standard, the train had a reasonable loading north of York in standard but I suspect the vast majority had got off before York (Unless someone was on AP, you would only get this train to York if you had missed the 1820, which is also 10 mins quicker than the 1830 as this is a commuter train to Grantham etc, and the best train for Nottingham (does anyone bother with useless EMT? Unless you have mobility issues it doesn't really make sense to pay the extra for a slower, rattling mid-range DMU with naff catering and staff that are much less welcoming in general than on EC).

And.. a narrow escape for you as we were on that train the day before! You can't remain elusive forever

 

[moonrakerz]

On my last lengthy train journey I found a man sitting in my seat, he had a reservation from Exeter to Padd, I had one for the same day, same train, same coach, same seat from Westbury to Padd !! There was NO ticket on the seat.
No probs - there were plenty of other seats.

 

[Flamingo]

On my last lengthy train journey I found a man sitting in my seat, he had a reservation from Exeter to Padd, I had one for the same day, same train, same coach, same seat from Westbury to Padd !! There was NO ticket on the seat.
No probs - there were plenty of other seats.

I've NEVER seen that. Often heard it claimed, but one of them is always wrong (and if on an ADVANCE ticket, charged up for causing me the hassle of having to sort it out )

 

[tony_mac]

a few guards here have said it happens - usually one of the tickets was issued by raileasy, as I recall.
(I had this once on a transatlantic flight!)

 

[bb21]

On my last lengthy train journey I found a man sitting in my seat, he had a reservation from Exeter to Padd, I had one for the same day, same train, same coach, same seat from Westbury to Padd !! There was NO ticket on the seat.
No probs - there were plenty of other seats.

He could have offered you his lap.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I was supposedly 'double booked' once but as it turned out, on the first leg of the other guy's journey, the guard mistakenly stamped his ticket, together with the two reservation coupons he had. He then smudged his ticket with the ink and as a result 'Coach B' was originally 'Coach D'. We figured that out as I sat down opposite him at the table and had a good laugh about it.

 

[Flamingo]

I'm not saying it's not true, and I'm sure it does happen. Just that whenever I've heard it claimed, it was user error.

I suppose that if two bookings are processed by different companies in the same time window, it may happen, just as a guess. Anybody know how the system works?

 

[WestCoast]

I'm not saying it's not true, and I'm sure it does happen. Just that whenever I've heard it claimed, it was user error.

I suppose that if two bookings are processed by different companies in the same time window, it may happen, just as a guess. Anybody know how the system works?

By no means knowledgeable, but I think there is a central database which the vendor (trainline, TOC, whoever) accesses and then holds the reserved seats until purchase. If the tickets are not purchased or different seats are requested, then the held seats are released after a certain amount of time. I am not really sure though to be honest..

 

[premier01]

From memory, it's a £100 fine for sitting in the seat and not vacating it when asked, and £200 fine for removing the seat reservation.

It is a bylaw offence, and the traincrew should have pointed this out to the other passenger.

Also, if she was being that argumentative, there is a bylaw offence of causing distress to other passengers, or the old Section 5 public order offence. In either case, the traincrew should have intervened and told her to pull her neck in, or get off at the next stop.

As regards compensation, this would only be available if he had not been able to get another seat in the same class.

In the case of missing reservations or problems, then the train-crew only have to offer another seat in the same accommodation in the first instance, but if there are no STD class seats, then a seat in 1st will usually be offered.

Someone sitting in a reserved seat is not a reason for a free first class upgrade, especially if there are lots of other seats in STD.

I thought a 1st ticket was held by the customer.


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Sounds good to me.

A
s for the 1900 Edinburgh-King's Cross, I suspect it would be easy to get a table to yourself in first class on that train, on a weekday, in the current climate.

First class patronage on East Coast has collapsed, at least on weekdays when you can only use a very expensive Anytime ticket. I got the 0800 York - London and 1830 London - York recently and you could get a table to yourself easily. The 1900 Edinburgh - London would be just as easy.

Standard though is still busy, but I would have no sympathy for anyone requesting compensation if they did not give the guard a chance. I would expect any guard to find a suitable replacement seat and some guards may well bump people up to First.

awwalker, welcome to the forum, and sorry if this doesn't sound sympathetic but I am pretty sure your brother could have found a table to himself in one of the first class carriages on that train, with a choice of a window seat, facing the direction of travel, quite easily I reckon.

If someone asked me to move when there were loads of seats available I would think it very odd. Unless there was something really special about that seat...!

I would also agree with this-it would only be an issue if the train was busy or perhaps prefered seat option e.g. table seat was requested and there was on other availability.

In this case anyone sitting there without reservation should move happily-often I sit in reserved seats if it appears the customer is not going to show-if they do show then I move-simples!

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Sounds good to me.

As for the 1900 Edinburgh-King's Cross, I suspect it would be easy to get a table to yourself in first class on that train, on a weekday, in the current climate.

First class patronage on East Coast has collapsed, at least on weekdays when you can only use a very expensive Anytime ticket. I got the 0800 York - London and 1830 London - York recently and you could get a table to yourself easily. The 1900 Edinburgh - London would be just as easy.

Standard though is still busy, but I would have no sympathy for anyone requesting compensation if they did not give the guard a chance. I would expect any guard to find a suitable replacement seat and some guards may well bump people up to First.

awwalker, welcome to the forum, and sorry if this doesn't sound sympathetic but I am pretty sure your brother could have found a table to himself in one of the first class carriages on that train, with a choice of a window seat, facing the direction of travel, quite easily I reckon.

If someone asked me to move when there were loads of seats available I would think it very odd. Unless there was something really special about that seat...!

I was going to ask when u say u can only use expensive Anytime tickets why would that be the case-I would have thought that if 1st trade was below forecast then Advance tickets would be available as well as special offers to get customers back to 1st-just that I don't travel with EC often but plan to on Wednesday.

 

[cuccir]

if there is no notice that it is a reserved seat, then anyone can sit there.

I can't see anything in the byelaws that says you can be moved from your seat because the train crew feel like it. (unless they manage to produce a notice that the seat is reserved).

As there were other free seats, I really don't see the problem.

Agree, its a bugbear of mine when I'm travelling to see people try and take seats from others when there are no reservations displayed. No reservations displayed = no reserved seats. Not sure what happened in the OP's brother's case, but if the reservation genuinely wasn't displayed on the seat then I'd have told him to sod off as well!

 

[Greenback]

Agree, its a bugbear of mine when I'm travelling to see people try and take seats from others when there are no reservations displayed. No reservations displayed = no reserved seats. Not sure what happened in the OP's brother's case, but if the reservation genuinely wasn't displayed on the seat then I'd have told him to sod off as well!

I agree as well. I have been non quite afew trains where there have been no reservations displayed. Even worse, on Voyagers it used to eb a bit of a lotterly as to whether the display was working at all!

If there are no reservation labels, how is anyone supposed to know the seat has been reserved, and why should they move?

 

[Flamingo]

If no reservations are out, then it is up to the train crew to find the passenger who had a reservation another seat.

If as I have found on occasions, every reservation is in place except for the four at a table that mysteriously disappeared before a group that did NOT have reservations sat at it, then I am more suspicious. And tell them to move.

 

[Greenback]

That's fair enough, I'm really thinking about the occasions there hasn't been time to put the labels out at all. If someone had approached me with a reservation then I would not have moved.

 

[Flamingo]

That's fair enough, I'm really thinking about the occasions there hasn't been time to put the labels out at all. If someone had approached me with a reservation then I would not have moved.

Nor would I expect you to

 

[moonrakerz]

I'm not saying it's not true, and I'm sure it does happen. Just that whenever I've heard it claimed, it was user error.

Well, he showed me his and I showed him mine - if you see what I mean !!