Advance tickets: using other operators when delayed

[EricS]

In a past thread, someone had an East Coast & connections advance ticket for a train to Glasgow that was cancelled. They weren't allowed to travel with Virgin or (initially) Scotrail.

They eventually got there, just later than they could have with the other operators.

Consider a hypothetical journey with an EC & connections advance ticket from Luton to Inverness, using the 12:00 Kings Cross to INV train. Say you were delayed in one of these ways:

• The booked EC train is cancelled, or
• The East Midlands connecting train is delayed, so you miss the booked EC train.

At KGX they let you take the next train to Edinburgh, arriving 17:25. There are Scotrail trains to INV at 17:42 and 19:36.

The advance ticket conditions say:

If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey.

But, that thread suggests this doesn't apply when the next train is a different operator. Is the other operator really entitled to refuse tickets as in that thread, and if so does it make a difference if the booked operator has no more trains to the destination that day?

(In practice I've found Scotrail staff friendly and helpful and I'm sure they'd accept the ticket in this situation. I'm just curious about what responsibilities operators actually have with advance tickets.)

 

[Flamingo]

Usually, if there is disruption, we get a message saying "accept X tickets due to disruption". If that message is not out, then in theory, if you have a TOC only ticket, you are the responsibility of that TOC, and the scenario would be no different to walking up to a British Airways desk with your Ryanair ticket.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Usually, if there is disruption, we get a message saying "accept X tickets due to disruption". If that message is not out, then in theory, if you have a TOC only ticket, you are the responsibility of that TOC, and the scenario would be no different to walking up to a British Airways desk with your Ryanair ticket.

Agreed. The same thing happens on my routes.

 

[EricS]

That's interesting, thanks. I wonder then, if the ticket was still EC & connections advance, but an earlier journey with reservations on EC to EDB then Scotrail to INV, whether that's officially valid on a later Scotrail train after delays? (On a day when there's not been sufficiently widespread disruption for the acceptance message to go out...)

 

[Solent&Wessex]

If you are travelling on the "& Connections" leg of the journey, then I think it is generally accepted that it doesn't really matter. Of course, if it is a reservable service then technically I suppose it does, but I know I don't bother that much with worrying what train somebody is using if they are on the "& connections" leg.

 

[34D]

Usually, if there is disruption, we get a message saying "accept X tickets due to disruption". If that message is not out, then in theory, if you have a TOC only ticket, you are the responsibility of that TOC, and the scenario would be no different to walking up to a British Airways desk with your Ryanair ticket.

Politely disagree:

NRCOC clause 43. Help from Train Companies if you are stranded
If disruption caused by circumstances within the control of a Train Company or a Rail Service Company leaves you stranded before you have reached your destination and the Train Company whose trains you are entitled to use is unable to get you to that destination by other means, any Train Company which is in a position to help will, if it reasonably can, either arrange to get you to that destination, or provide overnight accommodation for you.

I emphasise the words "any train company".

 

[SS4]

Politely disagree:

NRCOC clause 43. Help from Train Companies if you are stranded
If disruption caused by circumstances within the control of a Train Company or a Rail Service Company leaves you stranded before you have reached your destination and the Train Company whose trains you are entitled to use is unable to get you to that destination by other means, any Train Company which is in a position to help will, if it reasonably can, either arrange to get you to that destination, or provide overnight accommodation for you.

I emphasise the words "any train company".

See bold - they can get you there by coach if necessary. It also fails to specify how long a reasonable wait is

A lot is defined as not in the control of the train company as detailed in clause 45

45. Circumstances that are not within a Train Company’s control
For the purposes of Conditions 42 and 43, circumstances that are not within a Train
Company’s control include:

(a) acts or threats of vandalism or terrorism;

(b) suicides or accidents involving trespassers;

(c) gas leaks or fires in lineside buildings not caused by a Train Company or a Rail

Service Company or any of their employees or agents;

(d) line closures at the request of the police or emergency services;

(e) exceptionally severe weather conditions;

(f) industrial action by a Train Company’s, or Rail Service Company’s, staff or agents

or by any other person;

(g) riots or civil commotion; and

(h) fire, mechanical or electrical failure or a defect (except where this is caused by a

Train Company or Rail Service Company or their employees or agents, or as a

result of the condition of a Train Company’s trains).

Bold ones being the more common

 

[tony_mac]

I emphasise the words "any train company".

I don't think he was talking about the last train of the day

 

[yorkie]

The Luton-Inverness example isn't an example I would use, because the ticket is EC & Connections, and Edinburgh-Inverness on Scotrail is a connection (plus there's the issue of the likely huge difference in staff attitude - but lets not go there! )

Last May there were some passengers (not part of the same group!) taking the first available Hull to Aberdeen itinerary. There was an incident (SPAD I believe) outside Leeds station, causing delays. The TPE from Hull therefore missed the 0710 to Leeds by approx 1 minute. EC refused to hold the train on monetary grounds despite the fact that all all stations to Selby had just departed. So the EC train crawled out of Leeds pretty much on time yet obviously arrived at York around 10 minutes late due to catching up with the previous service. This is what the privatised railway is all about - great eh?

Anyway TPE Control authorised the tickets for use on XC and agreed this with XC control, this meant that the next available connection to Aberdeen could be used. There wasn't an EC train for over an hour.

It was helpfully pointed out to the XC guard that there was a young lady who was visiting the country who was booked on EC and on his train with a connection to Aberdeen. The guards attitude was appalling and he said he would charge her as control would not authorise that. I informed him of the NRCoC and made it clear to him that if he charged her, then this would have consequences. We later found out he had, in fact, not charged her.

Anyway on the Scotrail train there was no need to explain anything to the guard as the tickets were & Connections tickets the guard was more than happy to simply accept the tickets and was friendly and helpful to customers.

What you will find is some staff will have an absolutely shocking attitude and will make up their own rules and treat people who are already delayed in a way that is worse than even Basil Fawlty standards, but most staff are fine, with many being extremely helpful and apologetic even when the delay was nothing to do with them.

It would be nice if TOCs did more to ensure that staff consistently acted in a way that was not detrimental to passengers rights and ensured all staff had at least a reasonable attitude, preferably better. But several TOCs management fails to do this. Therefore, how you are treated in the event of delays can vary massively. It should not be that way, but it is. It is important to know your rights though so that when you encounter that unfortunate minority, you can be confident to stand up for your rights and be assertive.

My advice is to get tickets endorsed where reasonably practicable but this is not essential and pointless if it's a major issue, and obviously I would not queue at a ticket office if this results in a further missed connection! Sometimes mentioning to the guard that you have been delayed and are therefore on a later connecting service as you board can help. My advice would really depend on the exact circumstances.

 

[EricS]

I don't think he was talking about the last train of the day

I was talking about the operator for which you have a TOC only ticket having no more trains that day, but another operator still having more trains. (But when there hasn't been widespread disruption to cause mutual ticket acceptance.) Not sure whether you're then considered 'stranded'.

My advice is to get tickets endorsed where reasonably practicable but this is not essential and pointless if it's a major issue, and obviously I would not queue at a ticket office if this results in a further missed connection! Sometimes mentioning to the guard that you have been delayed and are therefore on a later connecting service as you board can help. My advice would really depend on the exact circumstances.

Thanks, I'll bear this in mind in the unlikely event that this actually happens. It was just in the back of my mind because of the substantial cost of a walk-on fare should an advance ticket not be accepted.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

If the operators trains are not running, your first port of call is them, they are responsible for getting you to your destination. If they arrange for you to use another train companies services then you may use those services. If they are unable to help you, you may ask another operator to help, if they can they will.

You cannot simply jump on the next train and expect all to be good.

 

[ainsworth74]

You cannot simply jump on the next train and expect all to be good.

Indeed, I think the advice in these situations always has to be to seek advice from available members of staff at a station before jumping on board (or speaking to the guard of a service you're thinking of taking).

 

[dvboy]

TOCs have to request ticket acceptance from other TOCs (and bus and tram companies where appropriate) every time.

Unless it's on NRE or the TOC's website or other information issued by them (eg Twitter), I would normally assume no agreement has been made, and would approach station staff first.

 

[Brucey]

Back on 5th November, when the OHLE came down at Wembley, I was at Clapham Junction (on a SN only HAV-MKC advance). We were advised to go to Euston where "Southern services would continue" (I didn't believe this as I didn't expect SN crew to have the correct route knowledge and didn't expect them to magically bypass the OHLE problem).

Anyway, off I trot to Euston (by SN train and London Underground). Arrive there and the only services are London Overground. Information desk tells me that LO will accept London Midland and Virgin tickets. They didn't know anything about Southern tickets and were surprised I'd been sent to Euston (most people were travelling either on Oyster or Any Permitted tickets, so could travel on any service). In the end, I took the decision just to board the LO service.

I arrived at Watford Junction and encountered exactly the same problem. No information given for Southern customers. The staff were also clueless about my situation. In the end, I telephoned Southern's customer services. They said I could travel on the next available service (whether this was LM or Virgin) and do whatever they advise for London Midland customers. A Virgin train appeared next. TM checked my ticket on-board and was happy with it. Even though the acceptance hadn't been advertised, the guard was obviously informed of the situation.

My opinion is that cross-acceptance should be much better advertised (i.e. announcements made saying that ticket restrictions have been suspended until whenever).

 

[455driver]

the guard was obviously informed of the situation.

Not necessarily, maybe the guard was aware of the disruption and used his initiative, not all guards are robots!

 

[34D]

Back on 5th November, when the OHLE came down at Wembley, I was at Clapham Junction (on a SN only HAV-MKC advance). We were advised to go to Euston where "Southern services would continue" (I didn't believe this as I didn't expect SN crew to have the correct route knowledge and didn't expect them to magically bypass the OHLE problem).

Anyway, off I trot to Euston (by SN train and London Underground). Arrive there and the only services are London Overground. Information desk tells me that LO will accept London Midland and Virgin tickets. They didn't know anything about Southern tickets and were surprised I'd been sent to Euston (most people were travelling either on Oyster or Any Permitted tickets, so could travel on any service). In the end, I took the decision just to board the LO service.

I arrived at Watford Junction and encountered exactly the same problem. No information given for Southern customers. The staff were also clueless about my situation. In the end, I telephoned Southern's customer services. They said I could travel on the next available service (whether this was LM or Virgin) and do whatever they advise for London Midland customers. A Virgin train appeared next. TM checked my ticket on-board and was happy with it. Even though the acceptance hadn't been advertised, the guard was obviously informed of the situation.

My opinion is that cross-acceptance should be much better advertised (i.e. announcements made saying that ticket restrictions have been suspended until whenever).

This is especially disappointing considering that Southern and LM are both owned by Govia

 

[LondonJohn]

In the event of a delay to your journey (known delay of approx 50 minutes), are you allowed to join a previous train (also late running) but still in advance of your one in 50 minutes to the same destination with the same TOC.

I was told this was not possible as my train had not been cancelled it would still be running.

 

[Flamingo]

In the event of a delay to your journey (known delay of approx 50 minutes), are you allowed to join a previous train (also late running) but still in advance of your one in 50 minutes to the same destination with the same TOC.

What is your source for this? It's news to me.

 

[LondonJohn]

What is your source for this? It's news to me.

The RPI for the relevant TOC at the boarding station who advised me my train was still running with a delay and that I had to travel on it.

The delay was as a result of a person being hit by a train.

 

[John @ home]

In the event of a delay to your journey (known delay of approx 50 minutes), are you allowed to join a previous train (also late running) but still in advance of your one in 50 minutes to the same destination with the same TOC.

I was told this was not possible as my train had not been cancelled it would still be running.

The fact that the delay was 50 minutes, not over 60 minutes, may be significant.

East Coast Advance ticket terms & conditions

Your ticket is non-refundable, should you decide not to use it. If the East Coast train on which you are reserved is cancelled or delayed by more than 60 minutes, special arrangements will be made to accommodate you on another train (although a seat cannot be guaranteed), or to refund your ticket provided your journey has not yet commenced.

http://www.eastcoast.co.uk/travel-i...nformation/ticket-sales-terms-and-conditions/

 

[bb21]

The RPI for the relevant TOC at the boarding station who advised me my train was still running with a delay and that I had to travel on it.

The delay was as a result of a person being hit by a train.

Was the TOC by any chance SWT? I was told exactly the same thing at Waterloo a few days ago when a fallen tree on the line meant that the incoming service was severely delayed.

 

[Flamingo]

The RPI for the relevant TOC at the boarding station who advised me my train was still running with a delay and that I had to travel on it.

The delay was as a result of a person being hit by a train.

Different TOC's, different local rules, I guess. We are inclined to be much more flexible when confronted with this type of disruption. We then go into "just shift people until it gets back to normal" mode.

 

[LondonJohn]

Was the TOC by any chance SWT? I was told exactly the same thing at Waterloo a few days ago when a fallen tree on the line meant that the incoming service was severely delayed.

It was indeed SWT. To be honest I wasn't overly fussed as the first trains to come in were heaving to full anyway and my train was virtually empty.

 

[jon0844]

Different TOC's, different local rules, I guess. We are inclined to be much more flexible when confronted with this type of disruption. We then go into "just shift people until it gets back to normal" mode.

A good idea. Getting people on earlier trains if they exist helps reduce the risk of further problems if things get worse, or a new problem arises. Makes your job potentially easier and hopefully makes the passenger feel like they're being looked after.

 

[dvboy]

This thread has confused me...

Say I get to the station at 14:15 with an advance ticket for the 14:30 train, and it is delayed 40 minutes, but there's a 14:00 train to the same destination, that's also delayed 40 minutes, I wouldn't be able to get on that 14:00 train?

I've never been in the situation...

 

[hairyhandedfool]

If it is a large scale disruption chances are they will allow you to use it, but normally, no you couldn't.

 

[Skymonster]

In the event of a delay to your journey (known delay of approx 50 minutes), are you allowed to join a previous train (also late running) but still in advance of your one in 50 minutes to the same destination with the same TOC.

I was told this was not possible as my train had not been cancelled it would still be running.

If it is a large scale disruption chances are they will allow you to use it, but normally, no you couldn't.

Interesting... I had an argument with EMT gate staff at St Pancras about this recently...

Two trains:
15:15 St Pancras to Nottingham was delayed to 15:55
15:30 St Pancras to Nottingham on time

I had an advance ticket for the 15:15 and told them I was getting on the 15:30 because this was the first train on or after 15:15. They said I'd have to buy a new ticket on the train...

NRE - Advance Terms and Conditions
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/advance_conditions.html

Conditions of use
You must be at the departure station shown on your ticket in good time to catch the train. If you miss the first train on which you are booked for any reason, a new ticket must be purchased.

If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey.

To my mind, that means that if the 15:15 was delayed, I can get the next train which was the 15:30. As it happens there was no inspection on the 15:30 train so the argument on-board didn't arise, but still it'd be interesting to have that debate...

Furthermore, I was on an East Midlands Parkway to St Pancras recently where there are two departures within five minutes. The earlier booked train was running later and a guy with an advance got on the "wrong" train. Revenue protection told him he'd have to get off and wait for the other train (which should have originally run earlier), but again NRE suggests that once a booked train is running late you are able to get on the next one to destination.

Andy

 

[Kryten2340]

Just to add to all of this I'm travelling from Newcastle to Glasgow next month and going EC to Edinburgh and then Scotrail to Queen Street. If I've read this correctly am I right in assuming if the EC train is delayed I can travel on the next available Scotrail train and the same in reverse when returning to Newcastle.

The tickets are advanced and I've booked it as one complete journey albeit with a change but it's automatically given the required connection time (17 mins going up there and about 35 coming back). Additionally if the EC train is delayed in arriving into Newcastle can I just get the first available XC train to Glasgow Central instead or is that not alllowed?

 

[bb21]

Just to add to all of this I'm travelling from Newcastle to Glasgow next month and going EC to Edinburgh and then Scotrail to Queen Street. If I've read this correctly am I right in assuming if the EC train is delayed I can travel on the next available Scotrail train and the same in reverse when returning to Newcastle.

If you have an EC & Connectns ticket then this is correct.

The tickets are advanced and I've booked it as one complete journey albeit with a change but it's automatically given the required connection time (17 mins going up there and about 35 coming back). Additionally if the EC train is delayed in arriving into Newcastle can I just get the first available XC train to Glasgow Central instead or is that not alllowed?

If there is no wide-spread problems causing delays on the network then I doubt you would be allowed to use XC instead of an EC service. However during times of disruption special arrangements may be in place.

 

[lyesbkz]

To my mind, that means that if the 15:15 was delayed, I can get the next train which was the 15:30. As it happens there was no inspection on the 15:30 train so the argument on-board didn't arise, but still it'd be interesting to have that debate...

The purpose of the "If delays occur while travelling . . ." clause is to protect customers travelling on Advance tickets where a change of trains occurs - if their first train is delayed, causing them to miss their connection, they will be allowed to take the next connecting train (albeit possibly dependent on TOC and route and other things mentioned in this post!).

Technically if your ticket is from London, you haven't started travelling, and "while travelling" would not apply to you - in the same way that customers in the situation I described, but who arrived late for their first train, would not be covered by the clause.

The advance ticket conditions say:

If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey.

But, that thread suggests this doesn't apply when the next train is a different operator. Is the other operator really entitled to refuse tickets as in that thread, and if so does it make a difference if the booked operator has no more trains to the destination that day?

It seems to me that the phrase "available train(s)" is supposed to mean "the trains which your ticket would be valid on" (i.e. by route in this case), which is stupid given this clause is supposed to define which trains your ticket is now valid on...