Advance tickets or flexible

[Flamingo]

Would posters prefer a reduction of say 10% on all ticket prices, if it meant Advance tickets would be discontinued?

Following on from that, would people be prepared to pay a higher flat-rate price for tickets if there was only one, travel anytime ticket (it would simplify my job!)

The above poll is multiple choice, by the way

My basic idea is that the income stream to the TOC's would remain constant, but some simplification of the ticketing structure.

 

[Ivo]

10% isn't sufficient enough for my liking when the likes of XC charge extortionate amounts anyway. Losing the one cheap option on flows like this will make rail travel more expensive than ever! I can see it working on some routes though. Overall, I think change it to 25% and I'll go with it.

As for the second option, no - unless the current off-peak is used as the template and raised only slightly to compensate.

Between the two, the current off-peak fare should be about right in my opinion. Of course, someone will disagree, but that's what the poll is for I guess! I'm not sure how to vote to be honest...

In the end I voted for options 1, 2 and 4. I say this, even though 1 and 2 are clearly opposites, because I'd be happy with both arrangements.

 

[WestCoast]

I'm afraid it would have to be more like 50%+ for certain InterCity routes, some of the walk-up fares are extortionate and simply unaffordable to those who aren't travelling on expenses!

Following on from that, would people be prepared to pay a higher flat-rate price for tickets if there was only one, travel anytime ticket (it would simplify my job!)
.

It's very difficult to say. I'm used to this set-up in the Netherlands - single, day return or weekend return being the 3 main ticket types for most journeys! However, I think the UK may well be too large for that style of system to ever work, especially within the TOC structure.

I'd prefer a compromise of slightly higher Advance tickets on some routes, with reduced walk-on fares from the extortionate levels. Demand/yield management DOES work for long-distance services and I'm afraid that is a model that cannot be abandoned.

 

[scarby]

Great subject.

I think the fares system is a mess.

The cheap off-peak web singles on GNER are a breath of fresh air.

Of course I do not deny that super-cheap tickets are great. I have used these. But often when you look at the "cheapest" options, let's say going from London to Scarborough, the only £11 fare left after one day of them going on sale is going out on the last train out of KX at 22.30 and spending 6 hours on York platform. What a joke. You can only snare these fares if you've made your plans 4 months before and are ready the day they go on sale to buy them at 8am.

By the way, it's the same in many other countries.

 

[Flamingo]

Well, if Advance tickets are that bad, should they just be scrapped?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I think the fares system is a mess.

The cheap off-peak web singles on GNER are a breath of fresh air.

(I'm reading East Coast for GNER, and agree).

On some journeys I make quite often, (same journey, same time of day), I can pay just under £10 or just over £170. I get the same seat, same service, same everything. The only exception is that if I meet a chum on the concourse and we decide to travel together, then its more likely to be even more expensive (the walk-up PLUS the unused Advance*). That really is a mess!

I voted for "Yes, I'd pay extra for some flexibility"

(* And for all the impact that demand management is having, whether I pay under £10, over £170 or both added together, I'd still be one of about 2 - 6 other pax in the coach)

 

[sheff1]

Would posters prefer a reduction of say 10% on all ticket prices, if it meant Advance tickets would be discontinued?

10% is not enough if you are referring to long distance anytime fares.

Following on from that, would people be prepared to pay a higher flat-rate price for tickets if there was only one, travel anytime ticket (it would simplify my job!)

My basic idea is that the income stream to the TOC's would remain constant, but some simplification of the ticketing structure

Higher than what ? I suggest a fare slightly higher the current off peak ('Saver' equivalent) fare could be about right but this would need further analysis - I agree that the aim should be an income neutral result for TOCs.

I would also wish to see a maximum fare as is the case in countries of such differing size as Germany and The Netherlands. I cannot believe that anyone actually pays the theoretical highest anytime fares for very long distance travel in the UK

The above poll is multiple choice, by the way

I haven't voted as the choices don't really correspond to my views outlined above.

 

[WestCoast]

By the way, it's the same in many other countries.

It is in the way that Advance fares are offered substantially cheaper than walk-on fares, but not usually to quite the same extent. For example, the extreme example of the Advance ticket Manchester - London potentially costing just £22 return with the peak walk up fare costing £296. I have never found such a large difference elsewhere.

 

[sheff1]

It's very difficult to say. I'm used to this set-up in the Netherlands - single, day return or weekend return being the 3 main ticket types for most journeys! However, I think the UK may well be too large for that style of system to ever work, especially within the TOC structure.

It used to work in the UK, with the addition of a Period Return which took account of the greater distances.

 

[MarkyMarkD]

I can't see how level "anytime" only pricing will work. It will lead to enormous over-crowding on popular services and extreme lack of use of less popular ones, which will ultimately result in them being removed from the timetable to save operating costs.

Pricing according to demand deters those who have flexibility in time of travel to pay less and occupy spare seats which would otherwise generate no revenue, and leaves space on the more popular services for those who can afford to pay for the higher fares demanded.

The biggest flaw in the present system is the apparent lack of availability of reasonably priced advances, on the day of travel or very close before. And it is certainly wrong that TOCs are able to price advances such that they are more expensive than flexible tickets - it is just misleading.

 

[dvboy]

I use a mixture of both, it depends entirely on when/where/why I'm travelling

i do believe off peak and super off peak are confusing. they need to be standard times across the entire network ie

peak before 9:30 and between 15:30 and 18:30
Off peak between 9:30 and 15:30, friday after 18:30, saturday and sunday before 9:30 and after 18:30
Super off peak all other times

 

[Zoe]

The biggest flaw in the present system is the apparent lack of availability of reasonably priced advances, on the day of travel or very close before.

Not everyone wants to be restricted to a specific train though. Off Peak tickets allow a choice of quieter trains but at the same time keep people off the busy peak trains. If you are going to run trains at turn up and go frequencies then it doesn't help if to be able to afford to use them you have to book in advance and be restricted to a specific train.

 

[ainsworth74]

The cheap off-peak web singles on GNER are a breath of fresh air.

On who sorry?

Moving back to Flamingo's point, I like Ivo don't think that getting rid of advances for a 10% reduction in walk-up fares would be an equitable trade for the passenger. To throw out a real world example right now (through EC's website) it's possible to travel on advances from Darlington to Kings Cross and back for £94.90 (arriving London 08:44 leaving at 17:30 so peak time travel) under the the proposed system that journey would now cost £261 (SOR currently £290). This is not a trade I'd be willing to support.

Having said that I do agree that something has to be done both to try and simplify things and also to combat the massive increase in walk up fares. One thought that occurs would be to perhaps increase advances by 10% and then reduce anytime fares by 10%?

 

[Zoe]

One thought that occurs would be to perhaps increase advances by 10% and then reduce anytime fares by 10%?

Anytime tickets should though by more expensive than Off Peak fares. The issue is that on some routes even Off Peak fares are getting to be unaffordable and this discouraged travel by rail for anyone that wants flexibility.

 

[34D]

Would posters prefer a reduction of say 10% on all ticket prices, if it meant Advance tickets would be discontinued?

Following on from that, would people be prepared to pay a higher flat-rate price for tickets if there was only one, travel anytime ticket (it would simplify my job!)

What, just one fare, like London buses? So penzance-wick route +any permitted £50 and Newhaven Town-Newhaven Harbour also £50?

 

[sheff1]

It is in the way that Advance fares are offered substantially cheaper than walk-on fares, but not usually to quite the same extent. For example, the extreme example of the Advance ticket Manchester - London potentially costing just £22 return with the peak walk up fare costing £296. I have never found such a large difference elsewhere.

Indeed. It is this disparity which makes the UK unique. There is little benefit for most peopel in Virgin running a 20 min frequency if you need to pay £296 to make use of it.

A compromise would be to have the restricted tickets available in time bands rather than on one train, e.g. valid by any train between 1300 & 1500 (This time restriction to be clearly printed on the ticket )

 

[SS4]

Option 1. I don't understand the argument that advances are pushing up the prices of anytime and off-peak. It's a comparison not dissimilar to the anti-piracy of each download is a lost sale. It's only true for those who have to travel regardless and have enough notice to get an advance

Advance tickets are quota controlled purposely to put bums on seats on services which would otherwise be empty. Of course they get it wrong sometimes and for the most part people are happy to plan long distance services months in advance (hence why you can't find any good advances for next week on popular services!)

 

[Zoe]

Option 1. I don't understand the argument that advances are pushing up the prices of anytime and off-peak.

Considering how cheap some of the advance fares are, I'm not sure the TOCs could afford do offer them if people were not buying more expensive tickets. It should also be noted that since advance fares have been widely introduced, in some cases the cost of walk-up tickets has significantly increased. For example on FGW when advance fares became widespread, the Super Saver was scrapped.

 

[SS4]

Considering how cheap some of the advance fares are, I'm not sure the TOCs could afford do offer them if people were not buying more expensive tickets. It should also be noted that since advance fares have been widely introduced, in some cases the cost of walk-up tickets has significantly increased.

Is that because TOCs know they can use advance fares in their publicity though? That's leaving aside the correlation implies causation argument. Would TOCs have pushed up these walk up fares regardless?

TOCs can raise the prices of walk up fares because there is a captive market. Advance tickets are not subject to ORCATS distribution either.

 

[Zoe]

Would TOCs have pushed up these walk up fares regardless?

I'm not sure they would have done as people could have switched to other forms of transport. By offering advance fares passengers were retained and it seems the fact that they are so cheap is more important than having flexibility.

 

[ainsworth74]

Anytime tickets should though by more expensive than Off Peak fares. The issue is that on some routes even Off Peak fares are getting to be unaffordable and this discouraged travel by rail for anyone that wants flexibility.

Maybe 5% from each then to be fair I was just thinking on my toes and hadn't really put any thought into it.

 

[bb21]

If Advance tickets were ever scrapped, then it is my view that long-distance fares need to be harmonised to the Super Off-Peak levels, not Off-Peak levels, thanks largely to the cunning way a number of TOCs renamed the SVRs into SSRs and reintroducing SVRs at a higher price level to extract more revenue from the hapless travellers.

If corporations like First can afford to pay the likes of TPE MD in excess of £1m then it has made enough money from the system to be able to plough a large sum back.

 

[scarby]

The biggest flaw in the present system is the apparent lack of availability of reasonably priced advances, on the day of travel or very close before .

Agreed!

Regarding referring to East Coast as GNER, please make allowances for me, I sometimes still even refer to Czechoslavakia as an existing country.

 

[Flamingo]

What, just one fare, like London buses? So penzance-wick route +any permitted £50 and Newhaven Town-Newhaven Harbour also £50?

No, but all fares "anytime", say an average of the three current fares (Super off-peak, off-peak, and anytime) added together and divided by three.

As i said, the main point of any changes is that they should be revenue-neutral to the TOC's.

 

[junglejames]

I think when flamingo mentions reducing the fare by 10%, he is on about the off peak fare.

 

[Flamingo]

I think when flamingo mentions reducing the fare by 10%, he is on about the off peak fare.

10% was pulling a figure out of the air, I will freely admit. As I said, the real aim would be to make the change cost neutral to the TOC's.

 

[junglejames]

Option 1. I don't understand the argument that advances are pushing up the prices of anytime and off-peak. It's a comparison not dissimilar to the anti-piracy of each download is a lost sale. It's only true for those who have to travel regardless and have enough notice to get an advance

Advance tickets are quota controlled purposely to put bums on seats on services which would otherwise be empty. Of course they get it wrong sometimes and for the most part people are happy to plan long distance services months in advance (hence why you can't find any good advances for next week on popular services!)

1- Most people who travel have to travel regardless. Very few travel for the fun of it. In fact, in my case, travel for the fun of it has stopped, because of the costs of off peak tickets. In fact some travel which I need to make has switched to car.

2- Advance tickets are obviously better for TOCs. All the money goes directly to them. They can make their advertisements sound better. They can control numbers better. However, with all these extra advance tickets available nowadays, how can they survive the loss in revenue? Answer, by increasing the costs of other tickets. Its the only way of surviving the loss in revenue caused by the massive numbers of advances now sold.
People are then literally pushed into buying advance tickets, sometimes by the forceful and unfair advertising of them. This leads TOCs to make out as if advance fares are loved, so they introduce even more. Result, off peak tickets rise even more. Its a vicious cycle, but one the TOCs love, for the reasons outlined above. But in truth, a lot of people dont love them, but are forced into buying them.

Look at all these people getting on the wrong train. A lot of them shouldnt have got an advance ticket. OK, some of these would do so no matter what, but some have only chosen it because off peaks are too expensive.
Look at the people on here who are worried about what time a match may finish or a plane may get in. They are sometimes advised to buy 2 or 3 advance tickets for around the time in question. That is someone who is pushed into buying advance tickets when really they dont want to. This last reason has got to show perfectly how advances arent actually as loved as they are made out to be, but are forced onto people.

Now if you reduce drastically (or scrap as Flamingo says) the number of advance tickets, you could then lower the price of off peak tickets. These people mentioned above are now much more likely to happily purchase an off peak ticket. Afterall, its the ticket they really want. Result? An increse in revenue because they buy a more expensive ticket.

I myself wouldnt scrap them altogether. But i would reduce the number of them available.

Also, whats the percentage increase on advance tickets between the end of BR and now, compared to the percentage increase on off peak and anytime tickets? I dont know for sure, but id bet the advances havent gone up by as much. OK so this wont all be down to the number of advances, but some of it will be.